Midichlorians...

Oops...double post...

 

Hindus believe that life cannot exist without the atman; Jedi believe life cannot exist without midi-chlorians
Jedi don't believe it, they know it. Something detectable and measurable is not a matter of belief.

Regarding atman, it's no way anything like midichlorians:
Although Atman is located in all of us, we cannot know It or understand It adequately with our ordinary awareness. "There no eye can penetrate, no voice, no mind. Nor do we know how to understand it or preach it." In the Kena Upanishad the teacher explain the difficulty to the students in the following words, "If you think that you know the Self you know not." And the student admits," I do not think I know the Self, nor can I say I know Him not."

edit:
Just because we do not know how to measure the divine does not mean that it is not possible or will be.
Divine is immeasurable by definitoin in terms of all the religions I know.

 

It is possible that midichlorians are merely a byproduct of the force, that the more powerful in the force someone is, the more midichlorians they have. The reason the Jedi test for midichlorians is because it allows them to quickly determine which individuals have the most potential to become a Jedi because of their current affinity with the force. Following the purely scientific testing process, we see that they move on to actually testing a potential candidate's awareness of the force and after rigerious trials, the potential Jedi is then trained for extensively for 20 years or more.

By this theory, anybody can be a Jedi as their midichlorian count will rise in direct proportion to their mastery of the force, but they'll simply have to work much harder than someone with an already established natural ability to use the force. And in fact, the films never establish that only those with a high midichlorian count can be Jedi, it just so happens that the Jedi prefer to rain those naturally inclined to the force.

Using the basketball analogy, someone who is 6'8" has a natural inclination to be an all star player while someone who is 5'2" obviously does not. That's not to say the shorter player could never achieve all star status, simply that he must work considerably harder to match the abilities of someone who is naturally a foot and a half taller than him. Now if you were a coach with limited time and resources, you'd make a scientific judgement by choosing to train the taller of the two simply because of his height and his greater potential, but you'd still have to work closely with him to mold him into a seasoned athlete as physicial attributes alone are not enough.

In fact, midichlorians neatly explain why the Jedi order are limited in number, why they can't just go on a massive recruitment spree and get themselves another 100,000 Jedi. It also explains why Ben and Yoda decided to hide out for 30 years waiting for Luke to mature enough to take on the burden of doing what they couldn't. I mean, if the force was just some simple minded religion where if one believed in it enough they could be a Jedi, why weren't Ben and Yoda training everybody they possibly could in the intervening years to build an army of Jedi to defeate Vader and the Emperor? Why didn't they believe that someone could have enough "faith" to be more powerful than the Sith? Why wait for a lone farm boy? And what of Luke's cryptic comments about "The force runs strong in my family"?

In short, the theory of midichlorians answer far more questions than they ask.

 

J-Solo

>>>>I also think that most of what you said about the Jedi (well...all of it) really has nothing to do with midichlorians. Yes, the Jedi shown by the prequel are arrogant and decadent, and they can't see what's happening in front of their eyes, but that has nothing to do with the midis. As you pointed out, and you were right, they are not impressed by Anakin's blood count.

I don't think it's so much "to do with" midichlorians as it's illustrated by them- the fact they apparently take this arbitrary measurement as the criteria for who they are going to pluck out of society and bring into their big tower emphasises the way that they are isolating themselves from the rest of the galaxy.

>>>You know, I just realize what's my greatest problem with the midichlorians. It's the TEST and the COUNT. If they're just a way for all living things to "communicate" or to "feel" the Force, and if it really doesn't matter you blood count, why do the tests? Why is Qui-gon so impressed by Anakin's count? Why was OB1 so impressed by it? (he even says something like "wow, it's bigger than Master Yoda's)

My theory is that if "they speak to us, telling us of the Will of the Force", then more of them would be better, and make it easier to "hear."

However, as Anakin's fall shows, it's no use at all if the individual fails to keep a quiet mind and listen to them.

>>>If you want a real world paralel, imagine that somebody said that humans can only believe of feel the presence of God because there are some living things inside us that make the connection. Does it change God? No, but doesn't it change the way we look at religion? Of course. If they made a film about that wouldn't people feel outraged and disgusted? Sure.

That's the way a lot of us feel about midichlorians.

Fair enough, but I personally don't think that's a fair comparison. People will disagree with me on this, but I don't think that midichlorians are as important as the people who don't like them make them out to be. I don't think that they are an essential go-between that the Jedi need to "touch" the Force. I mean, it looks like Palpatine didn't get trained by the Jedi, and therefore didn't have a "special" midichlorian count, and yet he went on to become more powerful than any of them (including Anakin.)

Obi Quiet
>>>I'm guessing that Midichlorians are just one of the many things that the Jedi Order puts WAY too much emphasis on. Any bureaucracy tends to bog itself down in rules and regulations over the course of time because, in the beginning, those rules and regulations WORK. As they figure out more things that work, they figure out more rules and regulations. Before you know it, there are so many rules and regulations that they cease to function effectively. It's the case with the Republic itself, and I believe it's a similar case with the Jedi Order.

I agree completely.

>>>I mean, think about it. The Jedi Order has almost literally confined itself to an ivory tower, out of touch with the "real world" of the Galactic Republic.

Again, agreed 100%. (Just look at the design of the Jedi Temple- could the "ivory tower" be taken any more literally?!)

>>>Love itself is apparently forbidden when, in fact, love leads to the creation of new life.

Well, I don't think love is actually forbidden- it never says so in the films, and although Anakin's "encouraged to love" line was obviously twisting the rules, he seems to make it pretty clear that it's the attachment/posession part rather than the emotion that's forbidden.

I mean, the basis of the Jedi philosophy is all about trusting your feelings- which makes no sense if they are to trust certain feelings while others aren't allowed.

And bear in mind that it's Anakin's "love" which leads to the salvation of the galaxy in the form of Luke...

Stewart-18
>>>>Sorrounds us, penetrates us. Binds the Galaxy together?...Sounds like he is talking about a God, or religion I say.

Could just as well be talking about the [

 

Why can't Qui-gon sense something about Anakin with the force alone...

He told Shmi, "The force is unusually strong with him. That much is clear." and this before he did the blood test. The midichlorian count only confirmed his suspicions that this young boy might possibly be the chosen one.

 

Something detectable and measurable is not a matter of belief.

I have to disagree here; thinking back to primitive Jedi days, they presumably had no way to detect an amount of midi-chlorians in the blood stream. So technically, the belief in something in us connecting us to a divine, all-pervading Force existed first.

Regarding atman, it's no way anything like midichlorians

I am basing this on the concept of the atman itself serving as a conduit for the Force, not the technical specifics; forgive me if further arguments have made this unclear.

Divine is immeasurable by definitoin in terms of all the religions I know.

If the Divine is completely immeasureable, then how come the Church demands proof of a person's performed miracles before they can be sanctified as a saint? Seems to me like this is a way of measuring or testing as person's divinity...

 

If the Divine is completely immeasureable, then how come the Church demands proof of a person's performed miracles before they can be sanctified as a saint? Seems to me like this is a way of measuring or testing as person's divinity...

It's not a measure of divinity. It's a procedure to estimate the quality of the person's relationship with the God (and it isn't a pre-estimate, it's based on the outcome of that person's life). Kind of a posthumous award, except that they believe these persons (or their spirits) will intercede with God for all other ppl.

 

It's a procedure to estimate the quality of the person's relationship with the G-d... they believe these persons (or their spirits) will intercede with G-d for all other ppl.

These people are acting as conduits for the power of G-d, the way Jedi act as conduits for the Force, so there is a correlation. Are they not interceding on behalf of the Force to protect order in the galaxy? "Nothing happens by accident;" the Force/midi-chlorians relating the Will of the Force, led Qui-Gon to find Anakin and take him to fulfill his destiny. Do myth and religious belief not tell us that the Judeo-Christian Divine acts in the same way? Joan of Arc heard voices, and prophets such as Moses and Mohammed were visited by avatars or extensions of G-d's power; in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, Moses was granted the use of Divine power to rescue the chosen people from bondage in Israel. Are the Jedi not led by the Force in the same manner?

 

These people are acting as conduits for the power of G-d, the way Jedi act as conduits for the Force, so there is a correlation.
Yeah. But not because they are more 'divine' thn others.

Joan of Arc heard voices, and prophets such as Moses and Mohammed were visited by avatars or extensions of G-d's power; in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, Moses was granted the use of Divine power to rescue the chosen people from bondage in Israel. Are the Jedi not led by the Force in the same manner?
There's a huge difference: the bond between God and ppl is purely spiritual. Ppl
can "communicate" with God because they have something divine inside them, namely their spirits. But the difference between ppl doesn't come from the "amount of spirit" (this expression doesn't even makes sense) they have, but their faith, their humility, their strength of will and so on (and form God's will of course). And it's not that we dont know, how to measure "spirit" yet, but that spirit is beyound understanding and measuring. Measuring the divine in Judeo-Christian terms would be the same thing as building the Tower of Babel, imho. God didn't tolerate that.

 

>>>>There's a huge difference: the bond between God and ppl is purely spiritual.

And the Force's bond isn't?

>>>>But the difference between ppl doesn't come from the "amount of spirit" (this expression doesn't even makes sense) they have, but their faith, their humility, their strength of will and so on (and form God's will of course).

You seem to be implying that the midichlorians bring Jedi closer to the Force.

Anakin Skywalker seems to prove that this simply isn't the case- highest midichlorian count ever, and yet he still fell to the Dark Side because of his failure in faith, humility, strength of will and so on...

 

Midichlorians only define one's potential. It's their character, their "spirituality" if you will, that determines how much of that potential they actually realize.

 

And the Force's bond isn't?
You mean midichlorians speaking? No, it isn't.

You seem to be implying that the midichlorians bring Jedi closer to the Force.
Well, essentially that's what Qui-Gon stated.

Anakin Skywalker seems to prove that this simply isn't the case- highest midichlorian count ever, and yet he still fell to the Dark Side because of his failure in faith, humility, strength of will and so on...
He did have the power to use the Force anyway, due to his midichlorians. Unlike the Christian saints who wouldn't be able perform anything like a miracle without faith and all that stuff. For Anakin those are needed only to use his power in the right way. So midis aren't sufficient, but they're requierd. But this isn't the point now. The point's that Jade's Fire seems to state that the concept of midichlorians and the concept of 'divine' connecting the deity and humans is essentially the same, and that the only reason we can't measure divinity is that we haven't found out yet, how to do it and I'm trying to prove the contrary.

 

>>>You mean midichlorians speaking? No, it isn't.

No, I mean the bond between a Jedi and the Force. The "connection" that also guides R2D2 and C3P0 to Luke Skywalker, and guided Luke to Obi Wan. Between the Force that surrounds and penetrates everything, and everything that it surrounds and penetrates.

>>>Well, essentially that's what Qui-Gon stated.

Yes- and what Anakin's fall to the Dark Side refuted.

>>>>He did have the power to use the Force anyway, due to his midichlorians. Unlike the Christian saints who wouldn't be able perform anything like a miracle without faith and all that stuff.

And Anakin couldn't "use the Force" until he was trained, despite his amazing midichlorians.

>>>>For Anakin those are needed only to use his power in the right way. So midis aren't sufficient, but they're requierd.

I don't think that they are. Otherwise how come Palpatine and Maul weren't detected by the Jedi, if they have them? (Don't know about Maul, but Palpatine was apparently born in the republic.)

>>>>But this isn't the point now. The point's that Jade's Fire seems to state that the concept of midichlorians and the concept of 'divine' connecting the deity and humans is essentially the same, and that the only reason we can't measure divinity is that we haven't found out yet, how to do it and I'm trying to prove the contrary.

Well, I don't personally think that midichlorians are the "connection" between people and the Force, and I don't think the Force is a particularly good analogy for a God either (mainly because God created life, while Life created the Force), which is why I haven't got involved in that topic!



Seems to me that the more importance people place on midichlorians, the less they like the concept. But I can't figure out why they think they're so important, because it doesn't seem to come from anything in the actual films....

 

I don't think that they are. Otherwise how come Palpatine and Maul weren't detected by the Jedi, if they have them? (Don't know about Maul, but Palpatine was apparently born in the republic.)
1) everybody has them
2) there are million ways to explain why Palpatine/Maul wasn't detected even if they had a high count
so their power doesn't prove anytghing.

I don't personally think that midichlorians are the "connection" between people and the Force
For me Qui-Gon's explanation strongly suggests that they are.

and I don't think the Force is a particularly good analogy for a God either
I don't think it either

But I can't figure out why they think they're so important, because it doesn't seem to come from anything in the actual films....
Doesn't it? The mere fact they were introduced and given that much screen time, makes me think they meant to be important. Also, the way Qui-Gon talks about them, and the fact he takes blood-sample somehow suggests that they must be important to the Jedi, and yes, that they are the connection betwwen the Force and ppl. Of coures he doesn't state it explicitly, so if you analyze his sentences word-by-word you might say they aren't necessarily, but I don't think that was the intention.

 

Yeah. But not because they are more 'divine' than others.

I'm not saying that more midi-chlorians make them more divine, but strengthens their connection to the divine.

Measuring the divine in Judeo-Christian terms would be the same thing as building the Tower of Babel, imho. God didn't tolerate that.

Maybe the fact that the Force thought itself in need of balance was the idea that the Jedi thought they should separate people by measuring this way and isolating themselves instead of spreading through the galaxy and encouraging the beliefs of others.

Unlike the Christian saints who wouldn't be able perform anything like a miracle without faith and all that stuff. For Anakin those are needed only to use his power in the right way.

The Jedi training relies a lot on faith and personal will to use the Force: Luke says "I don't believe it," to which Yoda replies, "That is why you fail."

the only reason we can't measure divinity is that we haven't found out yet, how to do it and I'm trying to prove the contrary.

To clarify, I did not mean that the lack of human technology was the reason divinity was immeasureable, but rather that being unable to measure someone's divinity does not negate the relationship between the atman and the midi-chlorians.

 

I'm not saying that more midi-chlorians make them more divine
Well, you brought up the sanctification as a supposed example of measuring divinity.

but strengthens their connection to the divine.
...
the relationship between the atman and the midi-chlorians
So what exactly is that relationship? Atman is 'divine' itself, thus connects the person to the greater divine priciple of the world, so the whole thing is spiritual. Midichlorians are something measurable, therefore not divine, which connetc the person to the great divine principle, so it's somethin non-spiritual. Or if you insist, strenghten a connection, which exists anyway, though I'm pretty sure that isn't the case (and if it is, introducing the midis was even more pointless than otherwise). Analyzing a blood-sample isn't spiritual either way, as well as listening to midichlorians.

The Jedi training relies a lot on faith and personal will to use the Force: Luke says "I don't believe it," to which Yoda replies, "That is why you fail."
True. (But when Yoda told that, midichlorians didn't exist yet )

 

Well, you brought up the sanctification as a supposed example of measuring divinity.

I brought up the proof of miracles required by the Church to relate to the testing of blood samples for midi-chlorians; a need for tangible evidence before either group permits recognization of an individual as a member of an order. With this example, the Jedi share practices with a religion within our scope and do not remove the mysticism of the Force with the midi-chlorian testing any more than the Church removes the mysticism of G-d with proof before sanctification.

So what exactly is that relationship? Atman is 'divine' itself, thus connects the person to the greater divine priciple of the world, so the whole thing is spiritual. Midichlorians are something measurable, therefore not divine, which connetc the person to the great divine principle, so it's somethin non-spiritual.

Just because midi-chlorians are measurable does not make them any less Divine; the tangible is no less Divine than the intangible.

Analyzing a blood-sample isn't spiritual either way, as well as listening to midichlorians.

Analyzation = Jedi emphasis on something that should not determine their focus (back to the isolation point). Listening to the midi-chlorians (as a link/part of the Divinve) is no different than the saints or prophets listening to angels or the voice of G-d. The translation of G-d's will into visions or vocalization is like the job of the midi-chlorians; they tell the Jedi the Will of the Force in a form that the Jedi can understand.

But when Yoda told that, midichlorians didn't exist yet

I feel that this is irrelevant, since it is possible to make a case for the existence of midi-chlorians. Again, the information in the PT is an expansion on that given in the OT, just shown in a reverse order.

 

1) everybody has them

R2D2 and C3P0 don't, and they seem to be connected to the Force. (Unless it was just "luck" that they happened to play such a pivotal role in ANH...)
And Obi Wan doesn't- in the last two episodes...

>>>2) there are million ways to explain why Palpatine/Maul wasn't detected even if they had a high count so their power doesn't prove anytghing.

Yes, but they all involve inventing something that isn't so much as hinted at in the films (oe even EU, to my knowledge.)

I don't personally think that midichlorians are the "connection" between people and the Force
>>>For me Qui-Gon's explanation strongly suggests that they are.

Why?

>>>Doesn't it? The mere fact they were introduced and given that much screen time, makes me think they meant to be important. Also, the way Qui-Gon talks about them, and the fact he takes blood-sample somehow suggests that they must be important to the Jedi, and yes, that they are the connection betwwen the Force and ppl.

They're important, in that they relate to the Jedi's recruitment/inititation procedures and the Chosen One prophecy. But I don't think they're that important in relation to the Force itself, and I'm convinced that if they were supposed to be the sole connection between people and the Force, then someone in a film would have mentioned it.

>>>>Of coures he doesn't state it explicitly, so if you analyze his sentences word-by-word you might say they aren't necessarily, but I don't think that was the intention.

If you analyse his sentences word-by-word, or by looking at the greater whole, I simply don't see how you can conclude that they are.

>>>Or if you insist, strenghten a connection, which exists anyway, though I'm pretty sure that isn't the case (and if it is, introducing the midis was even more pointless than otherwise).

Why does that make them pointless? The idea that the same Force that surrounds and penetrates everything can for some reason be stronger with some than others is hardly a new one. It's just that we've been given one possible explanation as to why, and also created a distinction between someone being strong with the Force, and the Force being strong with someone.

"Life creates it... makes it grow..."

>>>The Jedi training relies a lot on faith and personal will to use the Force: Luke says "I don't believe it," to which Yoda replies, "That is why you fail."

And Qui Gon makes it clear that you have to quiet your mind to hear the Force, and it requires time and training. Midichlorians alone will not do.

 

In a way, this is about the only thing I agree with the bashers on. I don't think the introduction of the midichlorians was in any way necessary. That being said, it certainly didn't ruin the story, or destroy my perception of the Force. I still look at it the same way I always have, even when I am watching TPM. It hasn't contradicted anything I learned about the Force in the older movies. It also doesn't need to be explained any further. I hope the midis are not used again in Ep.3, as they aren't necessary. They were used to show Anakin's potential, fine. We now know that potential so we don't need to know any more about midichlorians. Unnecessary as I think they were, they have served their purpose and we don't need to know any more about them. At least, that's what I believe.

 

"We also get into this thing of what are midi-chlorians, how they work which advances a little bit of the story of the Force, and how does the Force work, how we come to know the Force which is part of Anakin?s training in learning to become a Jedi. And take the idea of the Force one step further. The mid-chlorians are kind of a side issue. Not in a sort of spiritual, metaphysical part of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force, which has to do really with the genetics of why some people have more in tune to the Force than others."
--George Lucas

i rest my case. Lucas took that which was spiritual and metaphysical and added science and genetics.

lame.

 

I stand corrected. Back on page 2 I was wondering why Qui-Gon needed a midichlorian count in order to notice Anakin. In fact, the midichlorian count only confirmed what Qui-Gon already suspected. It was Obi-Wan who seemed impressed with Anakin's midi count. Qui-Gon actually seemed a bit worried about it.

I'm kind of glad about this because it reinforces my suspicion about the roles of Qui-Gon and the midis in the overall story. That GL quote you just posted worries me because, as many of you are saying, it takes what we knew as a mystical entity and unnecessarily superimposes this biological/genetic component.

In my imagination, this whole thing boils down to the Jedi being too reliant on rules, regulations and science (which leads to their downfall) while Qui-Gon represents the old-school mystical side of the Jedi who follow the "will" of the Force and the heck with all those Jedi rules and regulations.

If I'm wrong, then the introduction of midis truly was pointless and, as it's been said so often in this thread...they suck.

 

The mid-chlorians are kind of a side issue. Not in a sort of spiritual, metaphysical part of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force, which has to do really with the genetics of why some people have more in tune to the Force than others."
George Lucas

Often what is meant and/or said by an artist is not what is perceived by those analyzing it; it is open to interpretation. Hence, I hold to my opinion that the midi-chlorians are not completely non-spiritual, they do hold correlation to our world religions. I also do not believe it is lame to attempt using science and reason to explain religion, Thomas Acquinas was no idiot nor was he lame in any sense.

And I agree with you, Obi Quiet, about the reliance on midi-chlorians as a main feature of Jedi philosophy rather than the side issue that it is meant to be.

 

Dr.Evazen, The Force has always been both spiritual and physical. Luke and Obi-Wan were always biological entities, with cardio-vascular, pulminary, digestive, and sensory perception systems. They also happen to have Midichlorians, just as we have Mitochondria here on Earth, and they just happened to notice that people with a higher concentration seemed to have an easier time mastering the Force.

Lucas didn't add the scientific side to the Force, he just never told us about it before. At least not in the movies.

In the ANH novelization, Obi-Wan tells Luke that although the Republic tried to define the Force with science, it could never figure it out entirely. He went on to suppose that the Force may have AS MUCH to do with magic as it does science.

Personally, I find it facinating, not lame.

 

"Often what is meant and/or said by an artist is not what is perceived by those analyzing it; it is open to interpretation."

"Lucas didn't add the scientific side to the Force, he just never told us about it before. At least not in the movies."

 

With this example, the Jedi share practices with a religion within our scope and do not remove the mysticism of the Force with the midi-chlorian testing any more than the Church removes the mysticism of G-d with proof before sanctification.
I agree to an extent, though I think the parallel to miracle-proving is Anakin's examination. While in case of little babies (if we suppose they recruit such little ones) midi-testing might be the only tangible evidence, in Anakin's case it was totally unnecessary. And I wasn't saying (at least didn't mean) that midi-testing affects teh mysticity of the Force itself, but that the mysticism of the communication with th Forc. (Note: if the midi-counting is reliable enough to determine who should be a Jedi in such young age, they can't be just something not-so-important)

Just because midi-chlorians are measurable does not make them any less Divine; the tangible is no less Divine than the intangible.
...
The translation of G-d's will into visions or vocalization is like the job of the midi-chlorians; they tell the Jedi the Will of the Force in a form that the Jedi can understand.
Again, for me spirituality in religion=there's some huge mysterious divine essence penetreting the world, and it's beyound what the human mind can even touch. The few glimpses we get of it result either from a small fraction of it, or something substantially identical, which is usually shrouded in the turbidity/distraction of our mind. (ok, it's a very rough description, but I hope it's understandble)
So I don't think midichlorians can be an analogy of this divine essence.