*OFFICIAL THREAD* Obi-Wan Kenobi Ep III Discussion Thread--Part 6

Jovieve-I'm tellin ya, this movie is going to set us back 150 years.

 

Well, Padme' unlike some women evidently, is not bitter, jaded, cynical and world worn. That's admirable. Where you see weakness of spirit for "giving up", I see admiration for an unyielding sense of duty im the face of adversity. I see a woman with the courage to open herself up to love, and with that comes the possibility of opening oneselve up to being wounded. Padme's love was deep, and likewise her capacity to be hurt was just as deep. In George Lucas' universe people are a bit more transparent unlike our own world with all of the emotional baggage attached. Padme' kept it real. Yeah, I admire that.

See that was Padme's first love and experience with being in love, she didn't have the benefit yet, evidently as you guys have, of having had a bad relationship to jade her towards love. So perhaps IF Padme' HAD been infact "Strong" and survived her little ordeal, maybe she would have been closer to the types of women you ladies seem to represent hm?

 

Jovieve-I'm tellin ya, this movie is going to set us back 150 years.

I hear you, Kenobi's babe

Joshuavance

Well, Padme' unlike some women evidently, is not bitter, jaded, cynical and world worn.

Oooh, guess we hit a nerve here, eh?

That's admirable. Where you see weakness of spirit for "giving up", I see admiration for an unyielding sense of duty im the face of adversity. I see a woman with the courage to open herself up to love, and with that comes the possibility of opening oneselve up to being wounded. Padme's love was deep, and likewise her capacity to be hurt was just as deep. In George Lucas' universe people are a bit more transparent unlike our own world with all of the emotional baggage attached. Padme' kept it real. Yeah, I admire that.

C'mon Joshua, this transparency stuff completely contradicts you waxing lyrical about Anakin's character being the most emotionally complex of the series.

I agree with Padme dying ONLY in the context of a Greek tragedy, but Anakin should have killed her outright. After all, we still can feel something for Oedipus, even though he killed his own father. But I guess GL thought a modern audience would never think Anakin redeemable in any way if he had.

 

And yet, you guys think Anakin beyond redemption,or so you have stated at least? LOL

Oh the paradoxes, fallacies, and ironies that abound in this thread. I love it.


Hit a nerve? Not in the least, I'm not the one here with a skewed perception on love and human vulnerability.

 

Padmé didn't keep anything real, she was written to die by love to keep the heat off of Anakin for her death. Simple as that.

 

Oooh, guess we hit a nerve here, eh?

heh..I was trying to be nice and not bring that out, lol.

 

Really? It's that simple? That's remarkable, and when exactly did Lucas reveal that to you? Which conversation? I mean, when you are speaking , as you are, in finite absolutes, it's always best to reveal the source of this magnificent revelation don't you agree?

 

joshua

And yet, you guys think Anakin beyond redemption,or so you have stated at least? LOL

Oh the paradoxes, fallacies, and ironies that abound in this thread. I love it.

Go back and read. Did I say **I** thought Anakin redeemable? I don't think so.

Hit a nerve? Not in the least, I'm not the one here with a skewed perception on love and human vulnerability.

You're killing me here, josh And this coming from a man who believes MEN should always be first with women INSTEAD of their own children. Hee hee hoo hoo [wipes eyes]. Good one.

 

You know, I'm really awe-inspired truly to be in the presence of such profound specimens that most perfectly exemplify true feminine virtue and nobility of character. I am trying my best to learn the many splendid lessons on womanhood that you guys are wishing to convey.
And they said chivalry is dead. *They* have evidently never engaged in a dialogue with any of Obi-Wan Kenobi's cheerleaders that frequent the Episode III spoiler thread.







"You're killing me here, josh And this coming from a man who believes MEN should always be first with women INSTEAD of their own children. Hee hee hoo hoo [wipes eyes]. Good one."


Always most happy to amuse and entertain Jovieve. Out of curiosity, how many *different* times you been divorced now? Heh heh heh.

 

And yet, you guys think Anakin beyond redemption,or so you have stated at least? LOL

It's funny you should mention that, George Lucas had something interesting to say in 'The Making of Star Wars-Revenge of the Sith':

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says. "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror."

And yes, for the record, George and I talk everyday.

 

You know, I'm really awe-inspired truly to be in the presence of such profound specimens that most perfectly exemplify true feminine virtue and nobility of character.

Glad you finally see the light. And on the note, it's been a hoot; but it's late, good night.

 

I look at Revenge of the sith as a twisted version of the old Legend of King Arthur[Obi-wan] and camelot. Where as Anakin was both Lancelot and Mordrid at the same time and Padme was Guinevere. The fall of the Jedi and the republic was like the fall of camelot.

 

Well, I would say my past relationships have me alot more jaded than Padme, that's for sure. It's an interesting argument, that's for sure.

 

Joshua

Always most happy to amuse and entertain Jovieve. Out of curiosity, how many *different* times you been divorced now? Heh heh heh.

We have hit a nerve, haven't we You sound like a bitter bitter man, Josh, shot down looking for the purity of a Padme, caring nothing for herself and everything for her man, and conveniently dying before moving to the nagging, flabby housewife with the rugrats screaming at her hem phase

 

"have some kind of physical attaction to Hayden. Im serious. Anakin as a character is so anti-hero its jumping off the script. If your a guy like me, you would probably find him annoyingly weak minded and getto. Blamming everyone else for his lameness. There are some guys who dont get it either..........those arent the marrying kind ladies"
naw ibo, speaking as a 17 year old female who has loved Star Wars since I had first seen the originals 10 years ago, I don't really agree with that. I think Hayden is good-looking, but the charachter Anakin is attractive in how he is an anti-hero as well. Good girls like bad boys... It's the whole catharsis/Greek tragedy aspect of a flawed antihero that made me love Episode III. Someone had a really good comparison to Macbeth once(my favorite Shakespeare play), and I think I like them both for a few of the same reasons

 

"We have hit a nerve, haven't we You sound like a bitter bitter man, Josh, shot down looking for the purity of a Padme, caring nothing for herself and everything for her man, and conveniently dying before moving to the nagging, flabby housewife with the rugrats screaming at her hem phase"



Gosh Jovieve, you are *really* emphasing that aren't you?

Projecting are we?? heh heh

Maybe Padme' didn't die of a broken heart but rather The Force manifested her future for her. That of a nagging, flabby housewife with the rugrats Luke and Leia screaming at her hem phase perhaps??
Gosh, can you blame the poor girl then for boot scootin? I can't. I'd be Force choking me some skank too. Sheesh.

 

Looks like I missed out on a-lot of liberal excuse making for the reason why people do bad things. I know whats comming next......."Its societies fault Anakin became Vader, he needs a hug and a kindness cookie". "everyone in this thread is so mean because they dont understand that broken hearts and bling bling brat Jedi are so cool, and neat, like like like.........TOTALLY".

About that absurd junk about Obi-Wan not training Lameakin properly.

1. Qui-Gone started it.
2. Obi-Wan let the council know of Lameakins problems early, and the council ignored him.
3. Yoda should have took over the training of Lameakin after that whole sand gate thingy.

 

I think Hayden is good-looking, but the charachter Anakin is
attractive in how he is an anti-hero as well. Good girls like bad boys...
It's the whole catharsis/Greek tragedy aspect of a flawed antihero that
made me love Episode III. Someone had a really good comparison to Macbeth
once(my favorite Shakespeare play), and I think I like
them both for a few of the same reasons

Must have been the mass murdering(including children)aspect you found so
attractive and doing it all for the love of a good woman and of course the
power.

Actually Anakin isn't an anti-hero he's a villian pure and simple. However, what
makes him so unattractive to me is his general wimpiness and weakness.
I for one was a huge fan of Vader until the PT came out and ruined his character
When I discovered the ultra cool and powerful DV was nothing more than a whiney,
creepy, excuse making snake and moral coward who loved no one but himself -- Dv wasnt
cool anymore.

I personally find those types particularly unattractive. The part that always and
still bothers/amazes me is how people think that Anakin loves Padme so much, I
don't see it. It's so obvious that he's lusting after her sexually, but more for the
power and prestige she represents. He never sacrifices anything for her, he won't
give up the Jedi or the power that Sidious offers for the love of her or their child.
He's a possesive psychopath seeking control over someone he needs
and wants rather than loves and when she becomes a hindrance he chokes her. The dark-side
is Anakin, he's never a good man from what I see. At 19 he kills children and is
whiney padawan who seems barely able to control his dark tendencies. At 23 he's no
different, he's a Knight who uses the war as an excuse to be egotistical and aggressive.

In fact the only way Anakin's fall works in the story is that you realize Anakin has always been
hovering near the brink. He hides this side of himself from everyone around him, but decides
in ROTS that the Jedi aren't going to give him what he wants and needs and stops the
cherade. There is no way a good man could do what Anakin did for the purpose of saving
Padme, that is unbelievable even in the realm of a sci-fi fantasy.

 

Thats why I can appreciate Padmes difference of character from the strong, independent woman she was, to someone who was softer in will and demeanor.That does not equate to weakness of anykind in my opinion. Its a swallowing of pride and realization of what is really important in your life.

Well I dont know about that I mean she didnt even put the babies in her arms at least look at your children and tell them that you love them. I could care less about the goodness in Anakin all I wanted was Padme to see her kids before she died, thats the least she couldve done> Heck even Vaderkin looked into luke's eyes before he died.

See that was Padme's first love and experience with being in love, she didn't have the benefit yet, evidently as you guys have, of having had a bad relationship to jade her towards love. So perhaps IF Padme' HAD been infact "Strong" and survived her little ordeal, maybe she would have been closer to the types of women you ladies seem to represent hm?

Well Joshua Anakin was not her first boyfriend I thought she mentioned Paolo in AOTC in the picnic scene so she is quite familiar with love

 

naw ibo, speaking as a 17 year old female who has loved Star Wars since I had first seen the originals 10 years ago, I don't really agree with that. I think Hayden is good-looking, but the charachter Anakin is attractive in how he is an anti-hero as well. Good girls like bad boys... It's the whole catharsis/Greek tragedy aspect of a flawed antihero that made me love Episode III. Someone had a really good comparison to Macbeth once(my favorite Shakespeare play), and I think I like them both for a few of the same reasons

First off that wasn't me you quoted. Secondly the Greeks didn't have "flawed anti-heroes", they had flawed heroes. Big difference. The anti-hero as the ultimate hero is a more modern invention--probably first becoming somewhat popular with the gothic novels of the late 18th/early 19th century, which in turn influenced poets and whatnot(alas I love me some Lord Byron but he can certainly take some of the blame for the popularity as the so-called "Byronic Hero" is where it really moved into the mainstream in English literature from what I can tell and was no longer just in the realms of "light reading") but really only gaining prominence around the 1950's.

I happen to LIKE good boys. It is a whole heck of a lot harder to try to be good than it is to be bad. I can't understand the whole idolizing weakness thing. Fine sympathize with it, after all we all have weaknesses--but to treat them as somehow BETTER than the people who do the best they can and in fact LOOK DOWN UPON those people, because that is just what happens is just mind boggling.

Obi-Wan is looked down upon by many people, that is obvious just reading these boards, other "good guys" I can think of are looked down upon. Somehow they are considered the ones with the problem(and I'm not saying they don't have problems but they exagerrated to the point where they become worse than murderers and abusers), it is somehow their fault all the time that OTHER people do bad things.

It's disheartening, trying to be a good person, "a hero" is no longer something to be looked up to or admired or something to try to emulate--instead it is something that is mocked, to be torn down and somehow "disproven" by showing that the "bad boy" is just a poor little misunderstood victim while the "good guy" is really just a hypocrite who is in fact worse than the bad boy.

 

I think one of the reasons that I get so annoyed with Anakin raised to the status of uber-hero/messiah is the strong parallel to what goes on in the real world. People who are particularly successful/ charismatic/ or attractive in whatever field they operate in are revered to the point where they are forgiven for anything, and often people who have been wronged by said person are demonised for speaking against them. This happens in the media all the time, movie stars, political figures and the like, and I often feel that it isn?t the Anakin-figure himself that does the most damage, it?s the people willing to support that person past the point of any sense of justice or fair-play. There is a limit to how much damage one single individual can do (at least in the real word) no matter how selfish or amoral; the danger is when so many people are willing to turn a blind eye to that person?s wrong-doings , to say that they are justified in doing whatever they want because they are so exceptional or important. That isn?t meant as a critique of anyone on these boards who supports Anakin by the way, standing up for your favourite fictional character is something we all do here, I just wanted to say what bothers me about Anakin as an archetype.

Another reason I like Obi-Wan over Anakin (leaving the moral dimension out of things) is that Obi-Wan is a thinking hero. I find Odysseus more interesting than Achilles, Batman more interesting than Superman, etc. because they are thinkers. If Anakin had been shown as a more intellectual character with a more adult thought-process I would have found him more interesting. I don?t have a problem with anti-heroes when they are well-written; I enjoyed Profit (Adrian Pasdar as a scheming sociopath in a short-lived TV series), despite the amorality of its protagonist, probably because he was a thinker; I love Miller?s Crossing , with it?s hero who plots the downfall of an opposing crime gang while trying not to do the dirty-work himself, partly because Gabriel Byrne's character is so resourseful in manipulating others, even though he is so self-destructive himself; and Jullian May's Mark Remillard in her Exiles Quartet I found to be a fascinating anti-hero (although I think May screwed up the character's back-story and fall in her prequel trillogy in much the same way as GL did with Anakin in ROTS).

Anakin, for all his flaws, just doesn't seem interesting to me.

 

Amazing posts. I like most of all what Naw said in the end. Its the same thing as some of these fruitecakes twisting and re-writting history to tare down some of the most noble men in history. I cant believe some of the crap I hear comming out of the mouths of people these days. Every good person in history (especially US history) has been deamonized to a bunch of slave owning hypocrites, even though their is no evidence in most of the slander. Maybe in time we will learn that Obi-Wan was infact, a womenizing, drunk, that sold slaves on the side for some extra scratch.

 

Oh Midnight Daydream, I answered your post without saying "hello and welcome" so "Hello and welcome".

 

Anakin Skywalker, is Obi-Wan Kenobi's passion and conviction.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, is Anakin Skywalker's conscience and foundation.

 

joshuavance

Obi-Wan Kenobi, is Anakin Skywalker's conscience and foundation.

Without doubt.

Anakin Skywalker, is Obi-Wan Kenobi's passion and conviction.

How so?