State of the forum: please read.

Dew, based on that post it may very well be that opinions akin to your own with regard to the Vong have contributed to an unfair characterization of the fans of the NJO. The suggestion or implication that the type of person who is more likely to be enthusiastic about enjoying the NJO is a less civilized reader, as you put it, doesn't exactly contribute to the warm and fuzzies on this forum either.

 

I disagree Dewlanna, I joined up only 2 months ago. So I can't really say one way or the other if it is less civilized now than back then.

It seems to me that your pointing the finger at the NJO for being more violent, but the first scene of violence I saw was when I was 4 years old in ANH when Ben Kenobi sliced off that guy's hand in the Mos Eisley cantina then having a close up of the amputated appendage. How civilized was that?

But in general to the topic of this thread I can only point out the tendency for people to look back at certain periods in the past and say they were better. When actually it was not really all that better, only perceived to be better through hindsight. A year from now we'll be looking back on the summer of 2001 and say those were the days, just like some of you guys saying a few months ago was the golden age.

But then again not knowing how it was really like during that period I can't responsibly say it actually wasn't the golden age of the forums.

 

On the contrary, Mr. Slade, I think it's a matter of perspective. I think it's fair to say that Dewlanna has based her opinion on observation of the posts and the post-ees, not a summary lumping of all NJO supporters. Also, I think it would be fair to say that the NJO was designed from its outset to attract more readers, and those of a different ilk from the already-established readership.

However, I think that there have been a few bad apples along the way that have gotten away with what used to be improper conduct around here. Once those floodgates were opened and not sealed, the environment around her changed markedly. Combining this with the new readership (the unknown quantity in this equation), and the result is a board that is significantly different in tone and topic than before the NJO rolled into town. Does this mean that all NJO supporters are hairy knuckle-draggers who get their jollies watching WWF? Of course not, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't Dewlanna's implication. But the readership of - and hence, the forum membership's make-up - has changed, and it's had an effect on the discussions around here.

And the NJO is a divisive topic around here, for many numbered reasons. It just appears sometime that the ability to discuss things in a calm, rational manner seems to have faded a bit around here. I would posit that this is why many of the "old-timers" rarely make an appearance here, instead prefer to just lurk for the most part (like myself), waiting for the occasional good thread to come along that's worth engaging. Also, it's no secret that the vast majority of the threads around here have been beaten to death over the years, and it's rare nowadays to find unique topics. Some people don't need to keep talking just to hear their own voice after they've said their piece...

 

The purposes behind NJO aside, ever since Vector Prime was released there has been a group of people, not enjoying the series themselves, that portray those who do as childish, unsophisticated, and Lucasfilm sheep. Whether it's intended personally or not, it's not based in fact and it adds nothing to intelligent debate. When a discussion starts about why things have deteriorated around here, and it's suggested that childish unsophisticated sheep-like NJO fans are partly responsible, it presupposes that the portrayal was true. Dew's as always entitled to her opinion, but I felt obliged to challenge it as a fan who simply has alternate taste and has no reason to assume that opposing viewpoints indicate any lack of character.

 

Dewlanna Solo said that it is the posters reflecting the books. SHe didn't say that the posters are childish knuckle draggers when not reading the books.

Mr. Slade, did you write this description of people who like the NJO? Because that seems to be how you feel about them. Its not what Dewlanna Solo said. If you see yourself like that, its not Ms. Solo's fault.

As for the Gatherer disagreeing with me he can. But I ask you what attracts people to a forum and makes them want to write something. the most outspoken people here will tend towards the people who either much like the NJO or very much dislike the NJO and want to say why. If the forum isn't the same as the past it is because the people who care enough about the books to say something have changed. That's my point. The state of the forum reflects the state of the books.

 

I came here in November to confirm whether or not Chewbacca had indeed been killed. No one really noticed me, so I've just been lurking since then. While I greatly prefer the older books, I've been trying to respect everyone's opinion. I do hate the NJO, and think it's a bit below standard. Of course, I'm very picky and the NJO just isn't my taste. While it has seemed to make readership more varried, I guess tht's a good thing. People who started reading because of the NJO will most likely have to go back to get a sense of where they are. It's brilliant marketing. Unfortunately, it leaves some fans out in the cold, so they spend money elsewhere. And obviously, everything isn't owned by Lucasfilm.
Star Wars really gave me a taste of what I like, science fiction and war. I was very sorry that I didn't like the NJO, and had read the old books enough that I could quote anything from them, and usually give a chapter number as well. But, if others like them, who am I to begrudge people their Star Wars? The newbies often make a great crowd of fans. The people who like classic can enjoy the new enthusiasm, and maybe get fired up again.

 

Hi, I am a long time reader of the topics here but I don't post replys much. I like haveing a place to come to for discussions on things I didn't "get" after reading a book. I Thank you folks that want to keep it fun. Thanks!

 

Gatherer, I believe that this topic is shifting into an NJO debate but I will address that later.

>>>> Flamers: I think flamers need to understand that the whole reason we discuss here is to get other opinions.

>>>> NJO Violence: This was discussed a while ago and disappeared when it got too deep in religious discussion I think. I will not address this here but if a thread opens I will give my viewpoint so I don't stray off-topic here.

>>>> Polls: I agree with The Gatherer totally on this one. Polls should encourage discussion and should be useful in arguments. Example:

Flamer1: Wampas are stupid.
Responsible_User: Well according to a recent poll, ... ALSO Lucas has said <insert quote here> and IN MY OPINION, ...

This way discussions can be interesting.

>>>> Differences of Opinion/Splintering Factions: There was a good thread a while back that Jedi Merkurian pointed out by Herodontus or something like that. He explained the POV of people that grew up with the Classic SW movies. Then the splintering that ensued when the Special Editions came out, followed by more EU, & TPM.

There has been a similar trend here. While a lot of the original members are too busy or angry at the JC forums to post, nostagia is bound to happen. It can be tiresome to read newbie posts that ask the same questions, or read the new books months late. I'm at a blank now so I hope I have inspired healthy discussion.

 

Everyone, call me Frank, please. I won't bother digging up past threads. Dew, from about 5 posts ago:

"Either that, or the punk-rocker, WWF image of the Vong, and the over-the-top violence of many of the NJO books has brought a less civilized reader to the forums."

I took it in context of two years worth of posts (not all by Dew of course). But if I was looking at it just for it's own content, you'll have to forgive me if I assume that Dew is proposing that the lack of civility can be attributed to a group of fans identified only by their enjoyment of the NJO. It doesn't matter that she's not saying all NJO fans are bad - the presumption that the enjoyment of the books has brought a more lowbrow caliber reader here is, for lack of a better word, uncivil, because it precharacterizes individuals based on their tastes. Truth be told the most blantant acts of disrepect originating from these discussions have come from the critics of the NJO (I don't remember any death threats to authors coming from fans of the series). I know that the genuine reasonable critics like Dew are not responsible for such conduct. If we've all gotten a little jumpy with each other because of our passions for the series that's one thing, but the presumption that one group is more to blame than the other is simply not fair and doesn't help if we're trying to resolve conflict.

 

Okay, take the NJO discussion to another thread if you want to continue it. It isn't going to help this discussion.

As to reasons for a change in the way the forum is at the moment, the NJO distribution does affect here. There is little new material being released, and as a consequence, there is less for us to talk about and debate. In the last year, there has only been 5 major paperbacks, a few young adult novels, and a couple of comics released. Not much considering that we used to get this amount in 3 months at one point.

The splitting of the forum did also have an affect, but only as a lot of 'gushers' for certain characters, do not have as much incentive to come here anymore. But the split was necessary, otherwise Lit would now be what the EUC is, and there would be little discussion of Lit material.

The sudden influx of new users has also had an affect. (This is a generalisation, but it is pretty close.) A majority of them are younger users drawn in by the imminent release of Ep2, and have not had as much contact with the EU as many of us have. This means that a lot of topics that keep cropping up are ones that have already been discussed ad nauseum by the rest of us. Have patience with them. While they might be rehashing old ground, they can also have a view-point that we haven't seen before.

But above all, respect everyones opinions, and keep it civil. Think about what you say, and add constructively to a conversation, backing up with evidence, not just a "because I said".

 

Newbies on any board post topics that the old hands have seen time and again. We need to be a bit more tolerant of what appear to be redundant posts.
A couple of suggestions for newbie (and old hands)
1) before you start a new topic, look at what's already here, and go back several pages until you've look at topics that haven't been active in a couple of months. You might find your topic already existent and you might find that your concerns have already been addressed (if you have something to add, bring the topic back) you might find that your questions have been answered (this is especially true of continuity questions)
2) if you DO start a new topic, PLEASE make the title purposeful. Instead of "I have a question" actually state the question (such as "How old is The Emperor" or "Why did Corran lecture Luke in I Jedi")
3) PLEASE, PLEASE don't include spoilers in your topics name ( As did whoever named a topic "I can't believe they killed Chewie" mere weeks after VP's release)
If you topic is to be spoiler free, please say so in the title, likewise if your topic contains spoilers of recent books (anything that hasn't been out in paperback in the US for 2 months is my idea of recent, opinions vary on this) please put a spoiler warning in your title.

4) Try not to be a flamer or a gusher in your title

5) try to use civilized words in your titles, not the sort of words that are scrawled on the bathroom wall at the Jr High.

The amount of crude language on this board astounds me. I do realize that this sort of language is very common on the streets and in the hallways at schools, but, once upon a time, people literate enough to be reading SciFi and Fantasy, didn't use this language in public places.
And yes, Frank, I DO think that by pandering to an element of society that accepts unwarranted violence as the norm, DR/LFL has brought a different element to SW fandom and, hence to the boards. I'm not talking about the idiots that send death threats..they probably didn't even read the books, I'm talking about the fans who blast anyone who doesn't like the NJO. Take a good look at the last year or two of posts in the NJO debates, for the most part, the rude behavior and the foul language have not come from the NJO critics, it has come from those who can't accept any view but their own.
It's a general attitude of rudeness that seems to be acceptable in many venues. Look at TV, shows like "The Weakest Link" are flourishing,
in current movies, rudeness and crudeness abounds. I'm not surprised that many young people think this is acceptable behavior, I'm just dismayed that many intelligent young people have been misled into thinking this appropriate.
I don't recall seeing this level of incivility on the old BDD board. I don't know what this board was like before TPM and VP, as I wasn't posting here. Perhaps I am wrong that this boorishness appeared on general SW message boards after VP and perhaps I am wrong in blaming a particular element for helping to lower the standards of behavior here, but I see a clear cause and effect relationship.

 

An addition to what Delwanna has said, there is now a link in the top bar that is aimed at reducing redundancy. PLEASE use it!!!

 

Dew, is it that you don't see any crudeness or arrogance coming from critics of the NJO, or just that you see less? Your thoughts on the decline of society in general are well taken, but I think all sides in this particular debate could do well to exercise more humility.

We can agree to disagree, no big deal. But I've seen some pretty mean things come from your camp, so it just doesn't seem fair to blanketly blame the other side based on a literary critique of the series. As it's your right to do however, I won't push it any further.

 

Thank you, Dewlanna. I have to admit I do not expect quite the level of maturity from JC that I do from private SW listserves to which I belong, but I do expect people to have something more to say than "this sux" and, when challenged on their opinion, to do something other than reiterate what they already said. Just repeating your original argument has a name in debating--it's called losing.

And I also think that people are getting a little overboard in attacking some authors. While some don't come here, others do, and the ones that do ARE acquainted with the ones that don't. Say what you like about the books, but keep your opinions on authors' personalities, personal hygiene, intelligence, etc. to yourself. I can say that I've met several SW authors in person, all of whom were very nice people (whether I liked their books or not), all of whom I've seen personally slammed here. They most assuredly do NOT deserve some of things said about them.

 

I agree with Dewlanna, especially on the part about rudeness and foul language. It's simply not neccesary. I was thinking about it earlier, and I think I may have a solution to at least some of the redundancy. We can start an official reccomendations thread. That way, when people post saying, "I'm a 1st time reader, and I would like to know which books to start with," which seems to happen pretty often, we can point them to that thread and close it. We can post lists for people who want to read them chronologically, by character, in order of publication, etc. I believe this would cut down on much newbie redundancy.

 

In the other boards I'm in, I sometimes enjoy newbie floods. As most of the Internet discussions I take place in center around anime, it's hard to avoid spoilers, especially since they name the topic, for example 'Fushigi Yuugi', and then post "I can't belive ****** died!" (Starred in case there are other FY fans who haven't finished the series)
While anyone who does this is labeled 'Newbie' some people who have at least 300 posts do this. I think it's unfair to blame the new people, as not all of them are the stupid boors that is associated with the term. It is meant to describe someone who is new, not a moron. While sometimes the words are synonomous, vets also make stupid posts on occasion. Often, a person with few posts isn't that new. Many of the newer people I've met do their homework before they come to a board. Many want to make intelligent posts, and really contribute to the community. That's what I wanted to do when I came here, and hope that I have. I think we're doing too much generallizing. While I'm supposing that the majority of us are not what is considered 'Adult', we should at the very least be mature. I'm sure that we don't need to resort to name calling, for the new or old. While the NJO is considered sub-standard by many, it is considered wonderful by many others. While many thought the NJO would bring Star Wars into the limelight again, it's brought more of a drought. While there are more fans, many of them appear to be less dedicated than curious. However, many become excellent members of the Star Wars community. So we should stop ostracizing new fans, or new board members. They're still fans, and we're all basically on the same side.

 

Nobody's looking down on people who are new to the forums. They're saying that the NJO is targeted more towards the teenage male audience with the use of a more grim outlook and more graphic violence. With those teenage males come the language and attitude that is often attributed to that category. (BTW, I'm a teenage male, so I know that this isn't universal of my peers, but it certainly is true of many). When these people who are being targeted by the marketers come to a Star Wars forum they bring language and a certain attitude of "I'm right, and if you disagree, then you suck." It's not because they're newbies, but it's because they're being brought in by the new focus of the books.

 

Well said, skawookiee!
That is what I was trying to convey, I think you have expressed it quite succinctly.

 

I agree with almost all of what you have said. The only point I disagree is in the area of the literature forum being strictly for discussing Star Wars literature.

I have always said that Star Wars literature will be the most important thing to be discussed in this forum. However, as it is a literature forum, we have discussed more than Star Wars lit in here. Usually, such discussions may lead to comparisons. They may also lead to folks actually moving on to read other forms of literature that they may never have considered had they not seen them discussed in here.

Also, this forum has also been used to discuss history itself. Yes, some threads have been opened that start out as simply discussing history. But they always end up comparing some historical topics to parts of Star Wars lit. One instance of this has been the Yevetha beign compared to Nazi Germany while another has found the Vong compared to both the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.

There is in no way that I am saying we should make the lit forum a generalized lit forum. Because it is hosted by a site dedicated to all things Star Wars, it should always be a Star Wars driven lit forum. But by leaving it open to non-Star Wars lit discussions, that occasionally pop up, we give folks a chance to experince other forms of literature as well as a chance to learn more about history by finding Star Wars comparisons.

Am I going to stop feeling disappointed by the changes that occur in this forum? That only depends on my feelings about the intrest of the threads I find. Yes, I can write threads I find intresting. But it is only my lack of finding large numbers of threads I find of intrest that disappoints me. My adding threads will not change that disappointment if I still do not find threads by others that grab my intrest.

 

Why on earth are people so sure they know the target market for the NJO books? And how exactly is that perception based in anything independent of your personal feelings on the books. If I'm a reader and I don't feel overwhelmed by "over-the-top violence" and am actually enjoying the philosophical issues brought up by the conflict,and I like the idea of a long series like this, maybe I'm the target market and not some nebulous group of underage malcontents I don't see a single example of around here.

And once again, are you saying that you don't see any or even as much crudeness or arrogance coming from critics of the NJO on these forums?

Never mind.

 

skawookiee claims...

They're saying that the NJO is targeted more towards the teenage male audience with the use of a more grim outlook and more graphic violence.

Perhaps the audience for the NJO is younger and more male than the audience was for the Bantam books, but to back up what Frank Slade said--where's the beef?

Certainly the publishers and authors are not deliberately targeting the New Jedi Order to an audience that is younger or more male than the Bantam target audience. Authors (Elaine Cunningham and Bob Salvatore) have essentially said as much in this forum. Indeed, Bob Salvatore specifically told Dewlanna that her assumption regarding the age of the target audience for the NJO was one that she made "in error."

So NJO fans may be somewhat younger on average than NJO detractors. Maybe that's just the giddiness factor Wedge88 mentioned. Or maybe it's just that newer fans are more open to the NJO than longer-term fans, and new fans will be younger on average. Would the profile of fans vs. detractors have been any different at the conclusion of the Thrawn Trilogy (about two years after Bantam began publishing)?

And do you guys have a scrap of evidence that young male fans are disproportionately drawn to the NJO compared to young female fans? Certainly I haven't seen any evidence on this board to support that claim.

Why would the grim outlook or dark tone particularly appeal to teenage males? If my movie poll is indicative of larger trends (and that's a big IF), people who prefer RotJ may be more likely to enjoy the NJO than those who prefer the grimmer ESB. That result surprised me personally. But it does suggest that you can't just make a simplistic, causal connection between "grim outlook" and age.

I agree with Frank Slade. I think this belief about the target audience for the NJO books is a projection of personal feelings about the books. Nothing more.

Moreover, I think Dewlanna seriously understates how the atmosphere of this forum has been affected by a group of disappointed fans (mostly over 30) who have called NJO fans (and sometimes others) gullible, bootlickers, apologists for Del Rey, worshippers of a series of books, or crybabies, or made insinuations about the maturity, credibility, objectivity, or reading ability of certain NJO fans. I find this behavior rude, arrogant, and inflammatory, even if Dewlanna does not.

I would like to see the atmosphere at this forum improve. But I think we need to stop trying to cast the blame on a series of books, or their fans or detractors, or a particular segment of the fan base marked by age or gender, and simply try to take responsibility for what we post ourselves.

 

It's not really the violence in the NJO that bothers me. Heck, one of my favorite movies is Princess Mononoke, which has the same degree of blood and gore as The Patriot, another excellent movie. I read graphic war stories, and all my favorite shows are middling to graphic war stories. The thing that bothers me about the NJO is it seems so... done. Repetitive. But as I said, I'm very picky. While the Vong are a lot like the classic 'Evil Villian kill kill kill', they probably have a level of originality that I didn't notice. With me it just seems like every high-tech anime I watch has Vong in various states running around trying to kill everyone. *sweatdrop* But, if other people like it, it's keeping Star Wars in the market.
Also, so no one gets a mistaken impression of who I am, I am a 14-year-old girl, and have been a Star Wars fan for 5 years.

 

AniSS said: "I think we need to stop trying to cast the blame on a series of books, or their fans or detractors, or a particular segment of the fan base marked by age or gender, and simply try to take responsibility for what we post ourselves."

*I* think that we need to stop insinuating that anyone critical of the NJO is inherently bad for the forum because they make negative comments about the books. Blaming one group at the expense of another is just another shell game to avoid the real issue. Accusing critics of being "marks", malcontents, idiots who just can't see how good the books are, or stupid for not liking the books.

Apply Occam's Razor (one of your favorites). Ask yourself, what has changed? The answer, simply, is that the books have changed.

Now, how the forum membership has changed based on the change in the books is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is no more right or wrong that Dewlanna's.

 

Jades Fire--

*I* think that we need to stop insinuating that anyone critical of the NJO is inherently bad for the forum because they make negative comments about the books.

Making negative comments about the books isn't the issue, nor did I make reference to anyone's comments about the books. Calling people "bootlickers" or "apologists" because they like the books, defend the books, the authors, or the publishers, however, is an issue.

Blaming one group at the expense of another is just another shell game to avoid the real issue.

Exactly. Stop placing blame. Accept responsibiliy for what you say. Don't place blame on one particular component of NJO fandom while absolving your own group of their fair share of the blame.

Accusing critics of being "marks", malcontents, idiots who just can't see how good the books are, or stupid for not liking the books.

Absolutely. Calling NJO critics "idiots" is no different than calling NJO fans "bootlickers" or some other epitaph. Both should be avoided.

Apply Occam's Razor (one of your favorites). Ask yourself, what has changed? The answer, simply, is that the books have changed.

Yes, the books have changed. So does that mean the change in atmosphere on these boards can be placed on a series of books? No, of course not. That absolves people of individual responsibility for what they say, particularly about other people, regardless of whether they are critics or fans of the NJO.

This was what I meant, by the way, about casting "blame on a series of books."

Now, how the forum membership has changed based on the change in the books is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is no more right or wrong that Dewlanna's.

Actually, I haven't made any suggestion about how the forum membership has changed because of the change in the books. I am skeptical that the NJO series ALONE has had a particularly big impact on the makeup of forum membership.

 

The usual error that is made is to generalize. Look at me, that's what I do in this sentence: It's to state clearly what I want to point out.
I could also say that one of several errors is to generalize. That keeps the discussion open for other possibilities.
With my first sentence, I did not intend to say "That's theonly way", but you can understand it this way, and that's why it could stir a discussion that goes beyond nice.

We all aren't able enough to translate our ideas in something everyone is happy with our something everyone even understands. I don't know if that means that we are all undereducated, but I believe that it's about internet not being the perfect communications platform. Another factor is society not teaching to be more tolerant.

Before you reduce this problem to NJO fans stirring the lit boards, or fans discontent with NJO, think about the other boards: Gatherer could have paste&copied this thread into other boards, as well. Think of th ep1 boards. It's always: someone says "I hate it", and then someone moves to defend. Neither side will give in, so it ends in nitpicking accusations like "You insulted me by expressing what I said in other words".
Same thing with EU- or lightsaber-colour-influenced threads on the ep2 board.

Slade and Dewlanna were about to start such a war again on this board. I don't know, is there really such a mentality in the USA to sue everyone as soon as possible? It's one of the prejudices used in jokes over here in
Germany, so please take no offense!
To me, it seems as if many discussions end up with the different parties trying to defend fiercely what's theirs.

This is not limited to one side - it's always on both sides! Think about it!


Meanwhile, let's have some fun on the boards. My time is slowly running out, as I plan to leave this board when Star by Star arrives, because I want to read it in PB and avoid spoilers. I guess I won't visit the ep3 board once things vegin to heat up there, as I will enter the last movie with only little knowledge.