Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 314: Witches of the Mist Discussion Thread

Ok, first let me try to erase from that descriptive paragraph I wrote any reference to Maul or Savage being zabraks. Are we left with anything?

He's this warrior, with some cool tribal black tatoos all over his body. He's a very powerful fighter who comes from this village on Dathomir! He's the brother of Feral. He became the apprentice of this powerful Sith Lord and learned the ways of the Dark Side from him, as well as how to fight with this wicked double-bladed red lightsaber against the Jedi!

Hummm... There's still a lot left in that paragraph. You keep saying that we should pay more attention to the story differences than to the visual similarities. Why? As someone stated before, Star Wars is first and foremost a visual spectacle. Everything is defined by its look. Would Darth Vader be half the character he is if it weren't for his design? That is why Savage will always come off as a cheap Darth Maul clone, no matter what original story they attach to him. Savage actually has a cool story, which makes it all the more sad that it is wasted on a Maul clone. The fact that they are supposed to be brothers is one of the main problems with the character, why do you think it shouldn't even be taken into consideration?

 

i don't understand you Gry- on the other hand you say they are too similar and then you say it's bad that they're brothers that's why they are similar damn it- if they wouldn't be brothers that would suck- now they are so i accept his similarity completely- i have a brother too and people say he looks like me ....this is just realistic and believable that Maul has relatives too ......

Maul's brother is still different character like Rex is not Jango he may have diffrent destiny and personality....

of course i see what you mean- he is maul's replacement but then what? SW is funny fiction and canon already knows poorly made characters like Darth Malak who is Vader-clone or whole Old Republic- game which is filled with clones and jediclones and clones of imperial officers etc.

 

Once again you're confusing what's realistic in-universe and what's good storytelling out-of-universe. Of course it's perfectly realistic for Maul to have a brother, people have brothers all the time. Brothers are usually pretty similar physically to each other, but they develop different storylines. Now, is it a good creative decision when the director says "I want to use that dead character again, so let's give him a brother who can fulfill his role" ? Nope, it's cheap and diminuishes the original character. It would be sort of OK if Darth Maul's brother turned out to be a fighter pilot, a hacker or a diplomat, that would make him his own thing, even though they look alike. But to make him a Sith Apprentice with a double-bladed red lightsaber just crosses the line of the ridiculous.

 

It's (to put it lightly) a little much to bring him into Maul's same line of work, but for my part I'm looking forward to seeing if they'll take him in different directions from here on out. Besides, repeat or not, I at least enjoyed his story so far.

But yeah. It'd be like if they made a Death Star, but didn't call it the Death Star. There's a certain mythos surrounding these things if we believe them to be the only one of their type.

Ah well. I'm just happy. Hopefully I'll have reason to be even happier down the line. XD

 

but you don't remember that in-universe point of view is same as out-of-universe what comes to Maul-replacement thing-

Savage was not like Maul- not at all except his genes and therefore appearance- it was nightsisters who decided to make him Maul number2 .....that is also his purpose as Dooku's apprentice and it makes sense perfectly- Dooku wants to have Maul of his own -that's why all that training that's why similar saber even- it makes completely sense to me that Dooku gives Savage similar saber as Maul had- it completely justifies everything to me that story is in-universe story about replacing Maul that is what Dooku tries to do....

of course if Savage will become sith (good bye rule of two)and he is killed by Obi-Wan sliced half and he falls to the pit (only waiting to be recovered in some cr*ppy Legacycomic when they need Maul in some story )- that's ridiculous but I think we will see a different story with Savage- he is not his brother like Luke was not his father- very similar but they can do different choices

LOL I think it is funny how you are ready to accept all similarities -except saber.... i don't see any problem- Dooku wanted own Maul so naturally he gave him same weapon

-"Your brother mastered this- now you have to learn to use it"
-"Ugh- Savage wants to use his axe!"
-"Axes are suitable for half-witted Gamorreans -not for the Sith -you insolent beast "

 

Again, might make sense in-universe, not good storytelling out-of-universe.

I don't accept everything but the double-bladed red lightsaber. It's just that the saber is the last piece added to to this character, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

Oops... I forgot the third part:

#3: Have him eaten by the Sarlacc


He'll never come back from that one!

 

Gry, just out of honest confusion, though, and I'm not saying this to bait ANYONE, I just really want to know...

You have problems with the concepts that Savage so heavily lifts from (which I can readily see and somewhat agree with), but, if memory serves from your first impressions on this ep, you do think that his present story itself (his brother, his being used, etc.) isn't bad? My memory's a little hazy.

Just wanted some clearing up. I can accept it both ways if that is the case, that his BACK story is a mess, but his current story has potential.

Star Wars fans are...complicated.

 

Wow I just watched all three episodes at once after avoiding them for weeks, I must say that was probably the best action ever seen in the show. I'm surprised people are so negative over this, really unexpected. Savage is an overpowered expendable villain, exactly what he's designed to be. He might not be unique, but he certainly is a lot of fun.

 

Yes, that's exactly it. I quite liked his tragic story told in these episodes (with the exception of the insta-ultra-warrior aspect of it), which is why I was able to enjoy this episode a lot. That's exactly why I think it's a shame they attached this to a Darth Maul clone. They could tell pretty much the exact same story about a normal human Dathomiri male and all it would lose is the "oh cool, moar Darth Maul!!" aspect of it.

 

I've edited out the bulk of this, just so my next point is clearer. You're addressing -all- of my arguments with the argument that he has a different story.

So all this time, we're discussing his design, and now all of a sudden I am supposed to disregard all of that because they made him his brother? (Which is another part of the design) You're actually saying that criticizing the way he looks isn't valid because we should be judging him on his story alone.

Apart from the fact that the similarities don't end with his physical appearance (his purpose, being the apprentice of a dark lord of the Sith, is identical as well), my point is that he's virtually identical to what was previously a unique character (and Maul was unique because of his physical appearance) in almost every way except for his story. (Even though Maul doesn't have much of a story, so what is there to compare)

I already explained this, but let me do it again. His story is about the only thing that's different.

Let's say Cad Bane died, and they're bringing in a purple-skinned Duros bounty hunter from the same planet, including cowboy hat and leather coat and dual pistols, the only difference being that he's got a purple skin, yellow eyes and that he's got an elaborate backstory (where Bane has virtually none).

See my point now?

All those things that made Bane unique will have been copied, making the character less unique. Same goes for Maul. He was a unique character, mainly because of his physical appearance and purpose (Sith apprentice). Because of Opress, he no longer is.

As for Swashbucklingjedi's argument that this would also go for Anakin and Obi-Wan because they're both human Jedi with lightsabers etc. isn't a valid comparison because those things aren't unique, whereas Maul's design was.

And so we're coming back to one of my other main complaints: that Opress is largely unoriginal and makes Maul less unique.

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I do find it curious that first you're saying you respect everyone's opinion on the matter, then after a whole discussion you state that you won't respect our opinion because it's only based upon the character design. (Which is the exact thing we're debating)

I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong, I'm demonstrating my arguments for my opinion, and seeing as I have done so elaborately, I have every right to think the way I do.

Too bad you can't respect that, because I will respect your opinion nonetheless even though I do not agree at all.

 

You know the IGN boards are usually the most negative on the web when it comes to this show; however the majority of them were impressed by this episode and this trilogy. I'm amazed the reception of the episode here actually seems to be worse.

More negative than IGN!!! What have we come to?

 

Why are some trying to act like Savage's story is unique? It really isn't. In fact the conversation between Dooku and the Head Witch about Maul make it even less so. They were both raised in the same warrior tribe, both were given to Sith's to become their weapons against the Jedi.

The only three things that are different, make him kind of lame. His darkside steroids, his mouthy and abusive girlfriend, and him being terrible at following orders.

 

I am starting to think people are grading this show on a curve. How can something with so many pacing, writing, character and story issues be considered impressive? Because it wasn't as terrible as those Ahsoka and Padme episodes?

 

You know, if even Filoni is openly saying they created him with the idea of bringing back Maul, why are we still arguing he's different?

It's just a matter of taste. Some people simply love the idea of another kind of Maul, others don't.

To be fair, that's not my impression of the reception. It seems more like a 50/50 thing here. There were enough people who loved it. But it seems to be a 'love it or hate it' thing.

 

Too much, too fast, too soon. Thats how I'd classify this episode.

With it appearing on the Teletoon Website I decided to check it out despite my many concerns, and well, it largly lived up to what I expected.

It's not even so much the uncreative Savage Oppress that bothers me in this episode(and the previous one as well), its the way the needs of the plot so casually toss aside important aspects of everything from characterization to the ability to suspend disbelief.

Savage goes from a capable, but common warrior, to an absolute beast able to take on anyone and anything that doesn't shoot Force lightning over the course of the two episodes. A seasoned Obi-Wan Kenobi(yeah, you know that Jedi that killed Oppress's brother) with Anakin seems to have more difficulty with Oppress than he had with Maul. At least Oppress is running, which sooths the situation a little, but it still seems overdone and unimaginitive to me.

The only scene I can honestly say I thought was decent was Oppress abducting the Toydarian King. I thought it worked well until the Jedi arrived - A task suitable of an Apprentice, something that shows his potential without having him own some of the most powerful beings in the galaxy to do so.

Of course the Maul revelation, groan, well I've already covered that in this thread.

I wonder if we will see fall out from this episode. Will Dooku lead a fleet to crush the Nightsisters for their betrayal(which he surely must have caught onto by now)? I wonder if we'll ever see Oppress find Maul, gag. Is Ventress done or does she crawl back to Dooku or even to Palaptine in an effort to further betray Dooku?

 

(1) I'll take that as a "no"
(2) you're saying there "isn't anything unique about Savage" without addressing the unique aspects of his story I have repeatedly mentioned - and basing that opinion on the fact that he's Maul's brother which is logically incoherent (Opress is Maul's brother therefore no matter what his story is it's automatically unoriginal just doesn't work)

It's not at all that I think it shouldn't be taken into consideration! I get that some people aren't going to like a character being Darth Maul's brother and that can justifiably diminish one's appreciation of the story, what I don't get is the bold insistence that regardless of what Opress' story is it can't possibly be original or entertaining because the idea to make him Darth Maul's brother was a bad decision. I see from your other posts that you don't fall into that category, but it seems many here do.

 

Point out where I joked about it. Because I didn't.

A screen name is just a screen name and isn't supposed to say anything about how someone should be expected to behave, even if it's 'Humble Jedi'.

That's not what I said, don't put words in my mouth. It's just what you're taking from it, apparently.

I did that in my review. The character being a Maul clone is just one aspect of the episode I hated. I rated the first two episodes in the trilogy an 8 and a 7 respectively, so don't go around telling me that.

The problem is that you're talking about the story, and I'm talking about the character.

No, it does work. You're just not getting my point. The point is that both would copy a unique character, thus making them less unique.

In my case, it doesn't. See my appreciation of the previous episodes.

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It all boils down to the fact that you like the idea of another Maul-like character, and I don't.

 

I'm actually not all that attached to the decision. I don't think it's great and I don't think it's terrible. I'm more interested in what the character's story is.

Seriously though, I really tried to not mischaracterize your position and leave you room to tell that I am wrong about it! That's why I mentioned my qualifiers and included more. If you don't think what I was postulating you do, then my commentary on it has nothing to do with you or your position because of I've gotten them wrong. The post I directed you to was worded harshly because it was directed at someone who was wording their posts harshly, I only directed you to it as a matter of convenience as previously explained. If it doesn't apply to you/your opinion I am perfectly willing to accept that! It's why you see the word "if" strewn about in all my posts directed at you, I consider you one of my pals here and respect you as an individual.

 

Quite an invalid reply in debate i must say "Good" or "Bad" depends from you opinion.... ok you don't think it's good i accept that and i understand your point of view but it's different thing than agreeing with it.

I think that good storytelling is exactly
A. making sense in-universe and
B: working on screen

and i think that it works nicely on screen we can hear how some of the Maul's bloodline remains - we see Savage and we see he is ok guy then he is turned to be like Maul was- evil guy and pawn of the sith....

I'm talking as fan and viewer not as an official judge of the writer's guild or anything

And since it also makes sense in-universe it is ok storytelling to me -they explained it well enough to me (this camel has stronger back ) it's not great or absolutely awesome storytelling but ok- better than Maul was cloned as EU would have done if they would need Maul in clone wars-era ......

It's far from perfect but SW has never been perfect- no movie is perfect not even damn good ESB- i start to understand these "Sw-fans are overcritic" comments Anyway Savage was not the most innovative thing ever- but could've been much worse.......

No I don't If he would be Bane's brother or member of Duros bounty hunter's guild (that explain the hatstyle and jacket) then welcome new SW-character - he would probably be Bad Name.... no that's from that TCW-parody

But really if we see another duros bounty with hat and jacket then what? Is Bane only duros with hat - i don't buy that- he is not even very unique in-universe- so why would anyone want to replace him - Savage however was took to be Maul number2 that's obviously the idea of the nightsisters and Dooku- so if Bane's brother is taken to be Cad2- he gets the hat and jacket and then he leaves to go bounty hunting i have no problems at all

still yellow-eyed duros with purple skin looks funny- there is green duros and duros with orange-eyes though...

 

But in your example you were literally talking about a copy, not just the same species but same unique garb. My point is that this is not as ridiculous of an example because of the differences I addressed in my post. It's not a copy of everything that made the character visually unique. There are actually no visual similarities that are not necessitated by the fact that he's Darth Maul's brother, and everything that could possibly be different is (garb + physique + size + color tone, discounting the subpar weapon choice). Which leads us back to this dead bantha we've been savagely beating...

 

There is nothing unique about his story. What he has an abusive girlfriend? That is suppose to be unique? I have seen it on cops. What, because he has emotional problems? Pretty much every story of anyone with superhuman abilities over the last 30 years tells the same tale. That he has less backbone then Maul doesn't make him unique, it just makes him a bit more boring.

Let me explain this as simply as possible. I don't care that he is Maul's brother. What bothers me is he is Earth-Two Maul, except not nearly as exciting.

Like I mentioned early, and you seemed to miss or avoid it. Take Lucas making Episode VII with a character who is a former Jedi turned Sith in big, black armor, that also serves as life support, who breaths eerily similar to one Mr. Vader. But he isn't the Chosen One, and his choice to turn to the Darkside had to do with him not liking his step-dad.

The character would technically be different, technically unique. So would his story, but that would not make the character unique because anyone with common sense would know who he is suppose to be.

That is what we have with Savage Oppress. You can try and tweak his persona or backstory all you like, but there is a reason he is running around with the same look, with the same lightsaber. This is there attempt to tell Maul stories after they made the decision to kill him.

It is just like every time some random red haired, green eyed girl named Summers shows up in X-Men.

Just take the common sense test. Would Oppress exist if Maul never existed?

 

Some things about SO's dark side training (yes, despite the line being a little clunky) that I really liked...
1) Dooku shines in it as the anti-Yoda
2) Reminds me very much of a story from karate's early days in Okinawa. One master (I'd have to look up which but this is a legit story) decided it was time to train his young son.
He took him outside and tied him to a post, tree, what have you.
He then takes a stick and starts beating him. The boy of course starts crying, then sobbing but the dad doesn't stop. Eventually the kid swats back a little, then swings, then has the rope taught as he's trying like hell to get to his dad and kill him.

At that point the dad undid the rope and began teaching him karate

 

@Amdrag

I ignored that part of your post for the exact reasons you find me addressing to Humble_Jedi two posts up. You're constructing an example with many more similarities than those that exist between Opress and Maul and ignoring everything that makes them different except to be dismissive of them on the grounds that it doesn't matter because it was a bad writing decision irrespective of the story.

Your comments about an abusive girlfriend and emotional problems don't seem to have anything to do with Opress' backstory whatsoever... Kind of at a loss there.