Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 319: Counterattack Discussion Thread

Kids this is what we call a cop out.

 

I don't disagree with you on that, I worded it that way because it's not something I would've stated as my own opinion. However, I also don't firmly believe that humans are not the only sentient animals on Earth. I just have to recognize that I can't know.

 

Haha so now we are talking about who like who ...... so off-topic guys- entire sentience -stuff was enough out of topic..... ok CT- i don't really like you - that's because you aggressively attack others and their opinions- instead of peacefully stating your own..... and this same for GG..... i think there is no need for such aggressive bursts in discussion.... if you want that people ignore you- you should be less aggressive - those guys stand out in threads...

now that's said... so could we return to topic- what was this problem with Rex not remembering the plan? I think not every clone has as good memory as Barriss Offee- even if he has seen the plan he probably trusted jedi to remember it- but Ahsoka never saw the plan because she was not assigned to this mission....

 

Sentience is a socially disputed term.
I've read that it can be seen to be as little as to feel pain, or the ability to be able to perceive an experience, or to be able to think about something.
In any of the above cases I believe the clones would be sentient. Although most appear to be unable to question orders, or rather unable to disobey an order it would depend on just how they were modified. They can think creatively, have emotions, but you'd think being able to do those two things they could go no, yet most can't it seems based on AOTC. I don't think it can be argued that Cut and Slick aren't sentient though.

 

I think it is universally accepted humans are sentient ? that is essentially indisputable fact given the term ?sentience? is used to describe aspects of the human condition. As such I fail to see how if ?natural? humans are sentient how ?clones? of humans can?t be? I don?t see how clones are any different than humans other than the fact they are grown in a vat. Everything this story has shown us is that clones are in every way human ? the only difference being (apart from simple genetic restructuring which doesn?t affect their sentience) they are indoctrinated with Kaminoan ?dogma?. As I said before, they are no less sentient than a boy from the Hitler Youth...

The reason they can?t ?disobey? an order doesn?t really have much to do with ?modifying of the mind? but is rather a result of what they have been taught. If they truly couldn?t ?question an order? many instances in the show would be impossible (such as Rex considering Cut?s argument, and that Officer questioning Ahsoka?s ideas about tactics)

Regarding Order 66 ? I believe George has said they will delve into the ?programming? next season...

 

RIP Echo...what a useless death. Just blow up the shuttle. The clone manning the turret was aiming for clones/Jedi and did not shoot at the shuttle until Echo ran to the hatch. Seemed so throw-away.

-JR

 

If the little digs at each other (not just talking Tarkus and CT) in this thread don't stop, I will lock this thread down, and most likely, depending on how much coffee I've had, ban the whole lot of you. This is ridiculous.

 

BRING IN THE BANHAMMER. Honestly, Garth, you sound a lot like Sergeant Bric trying to keep two rookies from fighting.

 

Well whole term and it's meaning is created by humans to describe species that is capable of creating such concepts and naming them- all "sentience" is because of that usually used only to describe humanlike sentience because it's only sentience humans understand as "sentient" but it matters from a point of view where is borders of sentience- i think dolphins for example can be described semi-sentient unless i hear that dolphins created similar concept of sentience and use it to describe themselves and humans- i don't think they did that.... and once again we get into mr. H.... we cannot describe clones like that- they are genetically modified Hitler Youth was not - bringing up Hitler was now totally unnecessary-Imperial Youth is Hitler Youth of SW-galaxy- not genetically modified just brainwashed from the little kid- clones are both- genetically modified to be easily brainwashable.....

I think that reprogramming order66 is not what they did- it is possible thought- since clones born older as normal children- isn't that so- never seen kaminoans having 2 year old clones playing with blocks or anything - i think clones are in tubes unless they "born" older than normal children- probably straight to school at level of 7-10 years old so about 4-5 years old really.... all info 'normal kids' receive from real world is reprogrammed by simulation that may include brainwashing and even secret orders....

you mean droid

I think Echo just acted too fast without thinking - that happens all the time on battlefields and usually causes death....

 

Another general comment: it is okay to stray off-topic.

Obviously certain episodes are going to bring up certain themes for discussion.

If the tangent is related to TCW, then fine, go ahead. If it starts to dominate the thread and change the episode thread into discussion about that other topic entirely, then one of the mods will likely step in and nudge you back on target.

Don't be afraid to discuss anything you think is relevant.

 

I disagree. Didn't Echo actually say the droid was going to destroy the shuttle? Echo was the only one who tried to do something after Anakin was shot down. It was heroic yet a bit stupid. He tried his best while everyone stayed back and watched.

 

I'm sure their training comes into it, but AOTC says that for some reason the genetic modification made them less independent by nature.

EDIT: That is one visually-striking banner up there.

 

I don't think the comparison to Hitler Youth was TOTALLY unwarranted, especially given that Palpatine is basically just intergalactic Hitler without the 'stash. Although I'm pretty sure the similarities of clone trainees to Hitler Youth was coincidental, there is of course the SAGroup.

As for the sentience of the clones, we clearly see that they're sentient, not just in this show but especially in the Karen Traviss novels and need I remind you that she DID write the Clone Wars movie adaptation novel so while you not like her or her books, you don't have the power to throw her work under the bus - only Lucas can do that. And given how easy it is to write a bunch of deluded pacifists in a cube city into a planet of space-Vikings, I don't think even the big man is willing to go as far as throwing it all out. I just wish she was still around to write more Imperial Commando books.

As for Echo's sacrifice - I don't think we're in a position to say whether it was a poor tactical decision or not. Sure, the shuttle DID end up getting blown up, but you'll notice the cannon blast went OVER his riot shield. Now sure here on Earth a flak gun would totally blow a riot shield and anyone holding it into a meat-and-plastic salad, but being as this is Star Wars we're talking about here, maybe that was some kind of super shield, the impact from which getting hit by the cannon might have just knocked Echo down if it'd hit the shield. If you look at Echo's helmet after the explosion, it appears he was blasted in the face even though he was looking away from the shuttle when it detonated, almost as if the blast ricocheted off the inside of his shield, providing some small bit of evidence as to the strength of the shield.

Who knows? Maybe he just ran one way hoping to either get a better shot or give someone else an opening and his path happened to take him to the shuttle.

 

Really? It is, once again, an expression. It is a legitimate argument... I don?t see why it must be shot down for the sake of the fact you are repulsed by a discussion involving World War 2 in any way...

Yes it is likely completely coincidental, however it never less works as a parable.

 

Well i still think Hitler-Jugend was not genetically manipulated- so it was bit bad comparison IMO- not completely bad though but i think term brainwashing works without any nazis added there.... I just find it amusing how you manage to add Hitler in every possible matter somehow.... Clones are brainwashed too yes- just like Hitler Youth (or communist children etc.) but thing is that they aren't normal to begin with- they have reprogrammed thoughts in their head- unnatural obedience is placed there so it's not completely same as normal child being brainwashed by propaganda....

you mean clone youth brigade... actually i don't think it's coincidental at all- but as i said Imperial Youth is Hitler-Jugend of the GFFA- clone youth brigade is bit similar but as said all this discussion started when CT questioned "sentience" of clones and in that case it's bad parable because he meant that they are genetically manipulated while Imperial SAG or Hitler Youth were not- that's why i think parable was bad but i only find it amusing how you managed to bring Hitler here again- but similarity of Imperial Youth and Hitler Youth is obvious....
Palpatine definitely has many Hitler-like qualities but he has also Napoleon, Caesar, Stalin, Mussolini..... lots of other real world parallels- Lucas is obviously interested in WW2 era so yes Hitler is main inspiration of Palpatine's character as evil dictator.....

 

Is it just me or is TFN going out of their way to make it impossible to read the Boards? Seriously, who keeps putting dark fonts over dark backgrounds?!? I can't see a damned thing. It's ridiculous...

I'd love to take part in this thread but I'm afraid I'll go blind trying to read in this format.

 

It's not TFN, it's the new banner we have up on LACWAC. The style-sheet that comes with it just needs some fine-tuning.