Full Series What should Ahsoka's fate be?

The fact that this thread is still going after the many long hours I spent debating here just makes me really happy. It's nice to know that some things don't change.

 

One thing that should change is the fate options to include her willingly leaving the Jedi Order to become a Senator for her Togrutan people and so that she can be closer to Lux. But of course, those fate options were created by an individual with anti-Ahsoka biases.

 

You really think Palpatine would simply let her live if she did that?

 

In other words, those who are not blindly enamoured with Ahsoka, including these who have a moderated appreciation for her.

Like me. Though I still believe her absence from ROTS makes her existance a problem.

 

you got a problem with ashoka.....then you got a problem with me...

 

Even after she expressed interest in politics in HoBS?

No, I think someone who is as objective as possible should have created those fate options, rather than someone with a subjective perspective (pro or anti-Ahsoka). Granted they were created before the Lux situation, so I am likely expressing my own pro-Ahsoka biases!
I understand your POV about her absence in RotS and existence creates a dilemma, but in my opinion absence does neither negate nor prove existence - especially in a roughly week-long time period that RotS seems to take.

That's a good point. Palpatine may arrest anyone associated, or who had ever been associated, with the Jedi Order.

 

And I hold an open mind as to if TCW does a credible job explaining her lack of mention in ROTS. But really, Ahsoka approval is on a scale, not extreme opposites and some, like me, can appreciate some things about her while disliking some other things.

Same with other characters on the show.

 

That would be neat as well, and I'm saying this as someone who was irritated by her almost every frame of the TCW movie and now I think she's the bee's knees and pretty badass. But I want her to die, all wrapped up in some Dark Side bidness and I think for best drama we get Darth Vader vs. Ahsoka Tano. Big, big tragedy style. Be a fairly downer ending for the series, though, do have to admit.

 

She has to die in order to push Anakin towards his breaking point-ROTS state. I really like her character but we have to somehow get from TCW Anakin to ROTS Anakin and that's the way that makes the most sense.

 

She escapes from some battle droids aboard a CIS frigate by escaping into the trash compactor. Unfortunately, R2 proves unable to shut it down in time.

 

Ashoka says to hell with this war and the corrupted Jedi who hunt her. She just flies off with Lux into the far reaches of the Galaxy and is never heard from again. That is until Cad Bane brings back he skull.

 

...I really don't think her absence from ROTS is a problem. Look at the film. There are so many problems with it that conflict with other EU, TCW and even itself - not to mention that the character arcs are so unrealistic and forced. The film lacks any cohesive qualities whatsoever and no mention of Ahsoka wouldn't exactly be a "problem" by the standards of the film itself. Nothing that happens, character wise, really makes any sense. The failure to mention the fate of an off-screen character, regardless of the emotional effect it would have on the on-screen characters, wouldn't constitute a "problem." It would just be one more thing that the film does a terrible job of portraying. The character development lacks explanations for so many of the character motivations that if we're going to call leaving Ahsoka out a problem, we might as well call the whole film a problem.

Basically, IMO, you really can't say "but the film said or didn't say X." I know its technically G-canon but I don't trust anything in the film as being an accurate portrayal because there are so many holes in the way the story is told. I see it as a poorly assembled, fragmented amalgamation of the events surrounding the end of the Clone Wars - It gets the point across, but you can't really call it "Storytelling." If they ever make another special edition, let it be of ROTS...and let it basically be a re-make of the whole film.

 

Even if it was thought up after the movie there is nothing in ROTS that specifically stated Anakin never had a Padawan (no one says, yes or no. Its easy enough to speculate reasons why Ahsoka is not mentioned. I mean, Anakin is pretty busy thinking his wife is gonna die and turning to the darkside. If Ahsoka is off somewhere he has no reason to worry about her She can take care of herself. If Ahsoka is dead, well, she obviously can't be in any kinda danger then. I honestly didn't think about Ahsoka when I last watched ROTS. I certainly don't think she needs to be reconned in.

 

Such as?
And yes, I do think Ahsoka's existence is a problem in relation to RotS but given Ahsoka's prominence in the show (over prominence one could argue) I expect that Filoni will spend much effort trying to come up with a reason for her absence. But don't be hatin' on RotS because it doesn't mention Ahsoka, whom wasn't even thought up yet. As far as I'm concerned Ahsoka is just a crappy way of cashing in on the young girl market, much in the same way Maul's resurrection is a way to sell action figures.

 

If you really want to read through this, I'll type it all out...


The whole point of what I said was that the film is not a very reliable source in my “Fanon”, despite its “G-canon” status because of its inability to communicate a clear and thorough plot with well-developed, multi-dimensional characters. I understand that it is essentialy a children’s movie but that doesn’t excuse it from many of its problems. I also understand that in reality, with a story this epic and powerful, one 2 hour film may not do the best job at fleshing out what needs to be fleshed out in order to constitute a “well-made” film. Partially, I blame that on Lucas having to fit so much in one film b/c he went back so far in TPM and had to cram it all everything relevant to the OT in AOTC and ROTS. But really, when all said and done, despite my gripes, Lucas did create Star Wars and it is his to do whatever he wants with. I will always love these films – really just because they’re about such a fascinating story in a fascinating setting. However, just because I love them and watch them over and over, it doesn’t mean I have to say they’re perfect and IMO, ROTS is probably the worst one when looking exclusively at plot structure and character development. The biggest problem with the film concerns the lack of clarity in what the characters are thinking. I’ll go into a lot of detail here on two major problems with the character development in my eyes – the main antagonist, Palpatine and the protagonist, Anakin.

Palpatine
Palpatine is truly the “big bad” of the film and really the main villain of the whole saga. The other films do a very decent job of depicting who his character is and the Ian McDiarmid is brilliant in portraying his sneaky nature. However, during RoTS, the direction taken with the character trips over itself numerous times before finding its legs with him at the Opera House. At the beginning of the film, the mixed signals coming from Palpatine aboard the Invisible Hand are very confusing:
- Why is Palpatine sitting in a throne room chair, in a large hall over-looking the battle? Shouldn’t he be locked up in a detention area?
- Palpatine’s line, “…You’re no match for him, he’s a Sith Lord.” Seems like an incredibly dumb thing for the Chancellor of the Republic to say to Kenobi and Skywalker. If a leading member of the Jedi Council and the "most powerful Jedi alive" are no match for a Sith Lord, than who is exactly? This line feels forced into the script just so Obi-wan can say his line about Sith Lords being their specialty.
- When Obi-wan climbs up the steps and cuts down the 2 super battle droids, Palpatine expresses quiet excitement with a quick, “Yeat,” a smile and a head nod. Considering he is not needing to “sell” his Chancellor role to anyone – no one is looking at him or close enough to hear him, this “reaction” makes no sense and seems forced and out of place. Is he actually rooting for Obi-wan? Or did he think there might be some republic citizens outside the ship looking in the windows to make sure he wasn’t a Sith Lord? He also expresses worry and displeasure at Obi-wan being trapped by Dooku. Who is he putting this show on for?
- Anakin has Dooku under his blade, in a position to kill him when, In an attempt to push Anakin closer to the dark side, Palpatine barks, “Do it!” This command sounds incredibly dark and evil for a Chancellor. George Lucas needs to make up his mind. Is he allowing his true “Sith Lord” self to be seen or not? He’s rooting for Obi-wan and Anakin when they can’t even see his expressions, but when they can, he’s sounding evil. I think they’ve got it backwards.
- “He cut off your arm, you wanted revenge.” So an arm is worth the same as a head now??? I thought it was eye for an eye. Someone cutting off your arm can’t even be perceived as the equivalent to killing someone – not even from a luring Sith Lord. Palpatine’s logic: Killing a tribe of an indigenous species after they torture and kill your mom is just like killing someone who cut off your arm. It doesn’t really pose a problem in communicating who Palpatine is but it makes no sense nonetheless.
- Once Dooku is dead and Palpatine is free, he heads to the door saying, “Now we must leave, before more security droids arrive.” So Palpatine’s in charge of the mission now? Seems out of place for the chancellor to say that to a Jedi while he’s being rescued.
- “There’s no time.” Why is there no time to check on Obi-wan? Does it take a few hours to find someone’s pulse now? Way to make it seem like you could care less about the Jedi. I thought we were trying to conceal our Sith identity?
- Palpatine’s facial expressions when he’s being freed on the bridge are so over the top and unnecessary
Obviously, this is just the opening of the film and luckily, his character starts to become much more interesting and easy to understand as the film goes on. Nevertheless, to start a film with your main villain this way is never good. All of these moments make Chancellor Palpatine’s character very confusing. Based on the other films, we know he should either be engaged in a brilliant but devious ruse; acting like he is the Chancellor while concealing that he is a Sith Lord. However, his actions, dialogue and decisions do not support this portrayal consistently and in some cases are off-putting towards the idea of the character being the clever, calculating mastermind that he is supposed to be.

Anakin
Anakin is by all accounts the main character of this film and should really be the one character whose thoughts are the clearest to the audience. This is the biggest failing of the film. The moments of confusion concerning Anakin’s character almost take up the whole film. The first half of the film is really when we should be getting to know the character though. In the case of Anakin in RoTS, the first half does little more than provide the audience with a brooding, one-dimensional brat. Much of his dialogue and execution of the dialogue is downright phony. Many lines do not make sense in the way that they are said, whether due to editing or acting direction. Below, I’ll list much of these problems, but first I want to address the main issue with Anakin; and I think with the whole film.

If you say that he’s doing everything for Padmé, then you’re saying he’s only doing these things and he doesn’t truly believe in them. But when you look at the film, it shows numerous times where he shows that he does believe in them. However, there is nothing in the film that suggests as to why Anakin would all of the sudden believe all of these anti-jedi things. So what is really going on in Anakin’s mind? The film does a terrible job of communicating this and doesn’t give a clear answer. If the audience cannot understand what the main character is thinking, then the whole film will make no sense.

Faulty reasons to believe that killing Jedi is the right thing to do:
Anakin doesn’t seem to think the Council will allow Palpatine to appoint him to the council. Then, when Yoda says the council does not allow the appointment lightly, Anakin says he understands. Then, Windu tells him they’ll grant the request but won’t make him a master and Anakin flips out. Does this make any sense? What exactly is outrageous and unfair about this? He later tells Obi-wan, “I didn’t ask to be put on the council.” So then what are you complaining about??
Why does Anakin think that Obi-wan and the Council don’t trust him after he just had his heart to heart with Obi-wan? Because they don’t think he can defeat Grievous? That’s a lack of trust concerning his abilities, not concerning him as a person or his character.

Through the film, there is nothing to indicate to Anakin that the council doesn’t trust him. They do ask him to spy on the Chancellor, an assignment that he is very upset about and thinks is treasoness, however, wouldn’t that imply that they trust him a great deal if they want him to be a spy? If his “faith is shaken in them” because of this request, wouldn’t you think it would be restored when Anakin learns that Palpatine is Sidious? This should prove to him that the Council was right to ask him to spy and make the “treasonous” assignment much more patriotic.

The fact is that the only time Anakin is given any reasons as to why the Council might not trust him is when Palpatine reveals himself as Sidious. Would you really trust him when you’ve just learned that he’s a Sith? When Sidious is describing the “Jedi Plot” to Anakin, he speaks of it as if it actually existed and Anakin wasn’t included in the planning – implying a lack of trust on their part – but Anakin has literally had a front row seat to how things went down and it was pretty obvious that the Jedi had no intricate “plot” to take over the republic – let alone plans to “kill all of the senators and destroy the senate,” as Palpatine claims. Why on earth would Anakin say, “I agree” to this? Is he just giving lip service so that he can save Padmé’s life? If so, then why is he so adamant to Kenobi at the end: “From my point of view the Jedi are evil.”

If you’re boss is known to be a liar and he tells you a bunch of lies and then tells you to do something because of those lies, you might do it because he’s your boss, but you wouldn’t actually believe the lies.


In general, the failure to clearly develop Anakin’s character in this film is what makes the film a failure – that is not to say that I think the story is a failure. Just the way the story was told. I enjoy the novelization far more because there is actual character development.


Now for the list of grievances for the first hour of the film:

“Yea, you got him!” – Sounded lame
Didn’t take very much to bring the shields down on the command ship
Dumb battle droid moaning, talking, etc.
“Get back to work, that’s nothing.” Why is it nothing??
“Did you press the stop button?” you were looking at his hands…
“He’s Trying” line makes no sense the way that it’s said, screws up what could have been a fun interaction. If you’re going to cut the line that gives that one context: “He’s doing the best he can.” Cut the other one too or it makes no sense.
“This time we’ll do it together” makes no sense anymore with TCW
“Your swords please, we wouldn’t want to make a mess of things in front of the Chancellor.” That’s never stopped you before. Why the change in strategy?
“My powers have doubled since the last time we met Count.” Seems unlikely given the amount of times they’ve faced off in TCW
Anakin just watches as Dooku brings the platform down on Obi-wan.
After losing his hands, why does Dooku drop to his knees?
Dooku’s death – very anti-climactic for such a main character.
“His fate will be the same as ours.” What does that even mean?! If you’re trying to say you refuse to leave him behind it doesn’t sound that way…more like you’re making an observation about life and death itself.
Did the anti-gravity on the ship just fail? If so, wouldn’t they start to float? There’s no reason they would slide down toward the bow of the ship – they’re not in the atmosphere.
How does Palpatine and the two of them swing through the doorway when they’re sliding down the elevator hatch. The laws of physics say they would just fall right past it.
Ray Shields? They’re perfectly placed there, huh?
“Wait a minute, how did this happen, we’re smarter than this!” The way this line is said makes absolutely NO sense.
Patience. Again, line makes no sense.
“R2 will be along…he’ll release the ray shields.” How does R2 even know where you are, let alone that you’re trapped???
“General Kenobi, the Negotiator.” The line technically works but feels so weird that he’d say it considering that he’s encountered him so many times in the past and never treated him in this manner. The way its said makes it sound more like he’s addressing him based on what he’s known as, but when you have such a close relationship as they do, you don’t treat someone as how they’re known to others, but instead how they’re known to you.
Why does Anakin attack the droids holding Palpatine so aggressively? They obviously aren’t much of a threat and he’s taking a dumb risk in hurting the Chancellor.
Why does the ship break in half?
“This whole operation was your idea.” Was it? Obi-wan was the only one to say, “Palpatine’s kidnapped, lets rescue him!”
“That’s wonderful.” Really? She just told you it was wonderful. You couldn’t have chosen a different word??
“The happiest moment of my life.” Doesn’t look like it.
“You die in Childbirth.” Wow. Way to throw that out there so matter-of-factly.
“And the baby?” So we’re just taking this to be true and unchangeable huh? Really sensitive – both of you.
“It was only a dream.” Oh, so now you don’t believe it? Could’ve fooled me.
“This baby will change our lives.” Oh ok…just change the subject why don’t you.
“All of this is unusual.” All of what? Palpatine requesting Anakin’s presence? Thats one thing. What’s the “all” you speak of?
“Hold me…” do I even need to describe the horror of this line?
“At last, we’ll be able to catch that monster…” How many times before have they found him – that means nothing.
“I have trained you since you were a small boy…” What an od thing to say to someone in casual conversation.
Way to be discrete Kenobi – you pick the loudest creature to ride on while trying to sneak up on Grievous.
“I’ve been trained in your Jedi Arts…” This is probably the line that makes the least sense with TCW context.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out, but I think that you're confusing parts of the movie you don't like with issues the film has.
However, I'll admit Lucas' dialogue was atrocious as ever in RotS.
As for the contradictions between the EU and the film, they're minimal if at existent. TCW on the other hand demonstrates Lucas' inability to care about continuity. One of the quotes you pulled out is a brilliant example:

In 2005 the duel on Utapau was the first time in canon that Obi-Wan had encountered, so that was fine. By now, TCW has established that the two of them have duelled numerous times ( ) and it completely takes away from their duel here. The pre-TCW EU has far greater continuity with the films. In fact, I'd recommend Labyrinth of Evil and the RotS novelisation if you haven't read them already. They're excellent lead-in and are without the flaws of the film, respectively.

 

Dat ROTS novelisation. By far the best of the six novels written, it really gets you into Anakin's head. I definitely appreciate the film better having read that novel, it gives you much needed context and development.

 

Great novels. I'd also recommend the post RotS novel: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno (same author of Darth Plagueis). It focuses more on Jedi that escaped Order 66 including a padawan Olee Starstone (whom I suspect was the prototype to Ahsoka).

 

Pretty sure they released those three novels in an omnibus at some point, right?

 

The Dark Lord Trilogy

 

I agree that there are a lot of things in my post, especially on my "list of grievances," that are very much based on my opinion about what makes something good or not. However, many of the things I said are based on the facts of what is on screen and being communicated to the audience. You can't deny that the messages communicated concerning what the character of Anakin is thinking hold no bearing on the reality of the situation. The fact is that they depict Anakin thoughts on how he feels about the Jedi Order being negative, correct? The problem that the film has from my point of view is that from what is seen on screen, there is no plausible reason given to the audience as to why Anakin should feel such negativity towards the Jedi Order - so much so that he believes they are "evil." Like I said above, if its because they didn't make him a Master, he clearly communicates that he did not expect to be made one and that he "understands" the nature of Palpatine's request as "disturbing." He obviously gets upset (for no clear reason - based on what they've already said his expectations were), but is not being made a master what makes Anakin think the "Jedi are evil?" Or is it because they ask him to spy on someone who turns out to be a Sith Lord afterall?

I do think that there must be some things going on other than what the audience sees on screen in order for Anakin to have become so disenchanted with the Order. One reason I love TCW is that they do a very good job of fleshing out those reasons. But my point, when I first posted about Ahsoka's absence not being a problem, was that the film does not give proper motivations for the character of Anakin (they never give us a clear and plausible reason for Anakin to hate Jedi) and flip flops on communicating what Anakin believes. Therefore, if the film can't even fill in these jarring issues - and they are issues, the fact is that not presenting any motivation for such a major decision made by the protagnonist is bad filmmaking, not just an opinion of preference - if these holes were not filled in, then not giving us the skinny on Ahsoka seems like a minor "problem." If they don't include the most important part of a character's development, than leaving out feelings towards a secondary character and her fate is insignificant.

I agree. the EU does a good job of tip toeing around odd problems presented in the film. That was my mistake in how i said what i was trying to say - Its mostly just the film that contradicts itself. More specifically, Lucas himself as you said: "TCW on the other hand demonstrates Lucas' inability to care about continuity." That's more what i was getting at than the EU and film having major continuity problems.

I have read them and I said in my post, I find them to be much better representations of the events - because of their novel format, they're able to give more insight to the characters' thoughts and actions than the film does. That was really what I was trying to say to begin with - I love the story of ROTS and i really like the novelization. I just think the film is so poorly put together.

 

I agree with what you say, I would also add his Mustfar line "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over" 5 mins before hand "I can overthrow the Chancellor and together we can rule the galaxy" Lucas gave him two completely contradictory character motivations

As for Ashoka I like the charachter and her relationship with Anakin which I think works well. The ending scene in S3 where she is thanking him was really strong scene in an otherwise mediocre season. She is basically the female Luke to Anakin to what Luke will be to him in the OT.

But I do not think she should survive the TCW. Personally my own take is she discover Palpatine is a Sith who then kills her before she can tell anyone and who then manipulates Anakin into thinking her death was by someone else who he goes after.

 

Pshaw - Ahsoka can beat Sids with one hand tied behind her back. I assume she "reasons out" Palps=Sids since she's so clearly the intellectual superior to all the other Jedi - partially, too, because she's still young and the young always outshine the elder.

/yeah yeah, sarcasm. Sorry.