Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?

moo ::hits you with the Bamboo stick::

 

JM, good counter on the father/son example I used. However...

God used man's mistakes (i.e., killing Jesus) to complete a purpose He had.

How is it okay for God to use our mistakes against us? He made us, and he made the capacity for those mistakes, and now he's taking advantage of it?

"Devil's Advocate", folks, I'm telling you. "Look...but don't touch. Touch...but don't taste. Taste...but don't swallow! And while you're jumping from one foot to the other, he's up there laughing..."

God's way is life. What, then, can our way be other than death?

Hmm, this is very dualistic, which is vintage Christian/Islam. Nothing but black and white. There are infinite paths, infinite ways. All ways are life. There is no avoiding of life. There is nothing OUTSIDE God's creation - you can't escape it. The beauty of the system is: you WILL end up serving the forces of righteousness, no matter how hard you try not to, or how little you bother to try at all. You can't avoid it. Even Hitler served the forces of righteousness, despite himself. Not in getting rid of so many people - in raising consciousness and awareness, he set the stage for the whole civil rights movement, and probably many things we haven't even begun to see yet.

Cydonia, you are hysterical!

 

"There's only one way of life
And that's your own"

The Levellers.

 

Ok, I'll be the fly in the ointment:

How do you really know that the God in the Bible isn't Satan in disguise?

Maybe the Bible was written by the minions of Satan to fool the people of the earth... which makes sense, since god is described as being so wrathful in the Bible.

Maybe the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he is God?

Prove me wrong. Prove me wrong with tangible evidence.

 

Snowdog, kudos to you for bringing that up. I've asked that many times.

I personally believe the Bible we have HAS been corrupted - by Satan, by hypocritical humans, whatever. I think it's still got a lot of truth in it, but there are enough "traps" in it to really confuse some people who rely on it.

 

Here are just a few reasons why I don't understand the trinity.

1. How could Jesus have prayed to himself in the garden of Gethsemany(sp?)?
2. How could he sit on the right hand of himself?
3. How could he declair "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do"?
4. How could he talk to himself when he was babtized?

 

Coolguy, He could do all those things because at the time He did them He was God in a different form. He was man at the same time He was God.


"How is it okay for God to use our mistakes against us? He made us, and he made the capacity for those mistakes, and now he's taking advantage of it?"


No, He didn't use our mistakes against us, He used them for us. He used our mistakes to save us, becuase without the death of Jesus, our eternal life wouldn't be possible.


"Ok, I'll be the fly in the ointment:

How do you really know that the God in the Bible isn't Satan in disguise?

Maybe the Bible was written by the minions of Satan to fool the people of the earth... which makes sense, since god is described as being so wrathful in the Bible.

Maybe the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he is God?

Prove me wrong. Prove me wrong with tangible evidence.
"


I have no evidence for you. You just have to accept it on your own. The evidence is in the Bible itself, and it that's not enough, then it's not enough. One question though: Why would Satan describe the Son of God as being so loving, but describe himself as being the lowest being in the universe?

 

Prove me wrong with tangible evidence

The problem is there isn't tangibles when it comes to religion. It all comes down to what you feel when you read it or experience it. I don't thing the bible was corrupted. I just think it is taken out of context or too literally. Mostly the OT. I think it still contains truth. That is my feeling. Nothing tangible, just how I feel when I read it and think about it. The tangibles are in my gut.. You still want to see them?

 

"Of course, some will say that God hands lost souls over to Satan, who is merciless, and he is the one who torments the souls. But is not God sovereign over everything? Certainly God has control over the amount that Satan can torture an individual. If he doesn't, then he is not omnipotent. If it were not God's desire, Satan could not even touch the hair on the head of any particular unrepentant sinner. Since Satan can only then act under the accordance of God's will, it must be true that, if hell exists, it is God's will for Satan to torture individuals, or else he wouldn't allow it. "

"Satan goes to God and asks, "Is it Ok if I take the rejects who didn't make it into heaven and sear their flesh with fire?" And God answers, "Yes, do with them as you will. Since they are not mine, it is OK to burn off the sinner's skin with fire. It is according to my will." If God wanted to, he could say, "No, it is not my will for you to burn off their skin with fire. I will only permit you to surround them in darkness for a time, allowing them to reflect on their life and their mistakes in it. Then I want you to hand them back over to me, in order that I might rebuild them with love and discipline, and instruct them in all truth and mercy." This would be an infinitely more merciful punishment, and one that was believed by the majority of the early church fathers. Of course, many will refuse to believe that God could be so merciful, because the duty of Bible translation has fallen unfortunately into the hands of people with axes to grind, and masses to control."

Alright, read the rest for yourself if you're interested. I'm just adding this to my argument that hell and evil and everything else is God's will, not ours, not "our own way."

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/If-Hell-Is-Real-Moyer-Testimony.html

 

A few thoughts:

1. Hell is a prison for Lucifer and his fallen third, not human souls.
2. Human souls choose Hell over Heaven (for whatever reason) and because of free will, God will not stop them.
3. It is our choice to believe or not to believe. We are shown many ways to have faith in God and His Creation and an equal number of ways to doubt Him.
4. Someone once poised the question, "If God is omnipotent(scient), can He create something that can kill h=Him?" Yes, Man. By going to Earth as a mortal, devoid of the uberpowers He was normally associated with, Mankind, one of His numerous creations, is able to physically kill Him, sending His spirit to Hell, burdened with the sins of the world.
5. God has Multiple Personality Syndrome, but in a good way.

 

It's God's, He created it. But we have the choice not to go to hell. I agree that God does allow us to go thruogh punishment for the sake of turning back to Him. But if you do not belong to God, then you belong to "Satan", whoever/whatever "Satan" might be. And if you belong to Satan, then you are his to be destroyed by him. We all have the choice to follow God/Jesus. Paul said in one letter (forgot which one) that those who don't hear about God are a Law unto themselves. This being said, everyone can follow the One true God, and in turn, follow Jesus. But that's where God steps back and let's us make the decision. If you don't choose God, you choose Satan, and Satan is merciless.


Does that make sense, Cydonia? Or do I still sound the way I have all along?


EDIT: Nice way of putting it, Lord Bane.

 

No your point has always been made well, JediMaster. It just doesn't ring true to me. Free will, at least to me, is not only having two options in life. How would you feel if you were only allowed to watch two movies for the rest of your life, although you had seen tons of great movies previously? Add to this, you had to pledge allegiance to Meg Ryan, because others tell you if you don't, you're going to die? So what happens if you don't like Meg Ryan OR Sandra Bullock? You have to spend the rest of your life watching You've Got Mail or Speed 2? That's free will? Not to me.

 

And who, might I ask, would not want to pledge allegiance to Jesus? Was He that horrible a person? And if you did pledge your life to Jesus, you'd have to spend your life telling others what He has done for you, and spend your life with the fullest joy and fullest peace that you could have. Jesus is very freeing, as every Christian (and I mean the followers of Christ, not Christian by name) will tell you? I wouldn't compare following Christ to watching You've Got Mail for the rest of your life. Jesus is so much more than that.

 

"And who, might I ask, would not want to pledge allegiance to Jesus?"

Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, "Spiritual" people, feel free to add to that list. You know, all the really bad people.

My very clever comical example was that there is no such thing as free will in this view of the bible.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Jesus personally. But i'm not going to pretend i believe the NT is literal truth.

 

"Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, "Spiritual" people, feel free to add to that list. You know, all the really bad people."


Actually, my point was more, "why wouldn't anyone want to pledge allegiance to Jesus?" No need to list the reasons, I already know them. But Jesus did no bad, all good. If there was anyone worth pledging allegiance to, it would be Jesus. Not just in my opinion, because every other person that people would pledge allegiance to has done wrong in some way. Jesus was something more.


"I don't think there's anything wrong with Jesus personally. But i'm not going to pretend i believe the NT is literal truth."


That's your choice. But I don't agree with you. The Bible has done so much for me, and the world itself. Notice I said the Bible, not those who distort Its teachings.

 

Prove me wrong with tangible evidence: Prove yourself correct. Also, so what if we are Satin's little minions. What are you gonna do about it?

In my religion (Catholic Christianity)we have mysteries. These mysteries are too complicated for the human mind to understand. We are a religion based on faith. Based on trust in God



1. How could Jesus have prayed to himself in the garden of Gethsemany(sp?)?
2. How could he sit on the right hand of himself?
3. How could he declair "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do"?
4. How could he talk to himself when he was babtized? n our father God.


To answer those questions I have the same thing to say as I did before. It is a mystery. We aren't supposed to understand. I believe because I have a special bond with my God. Laugh, I don't care, I can see it now, "Bond with god?!?!? psj what are you thinking." I am thinking that my God and my religion has brought me much happiness, peace, understanding, wisdom, and self esteem. If you don't find that in a religion, that's ok. Don't go making fun of or critizing the religion that you don't know about. I know my religion, and apparently you don't.

 

The Catholic mysteries sound like Buddhist koans - little unanswerable questions that pondering upon can lead you to realizations.

We're clearly never going to agree here - what Bane and JM are saying is right for them, and what Cydonia and I are saying is right for us.

I do believe evil is part of God's plan, and all that we call "evil" ultimately serves good despite itself. That just makes the most sense to me. Plus, I've had a very ironic life, so ironic theories ring more true to me.

I do have one addition to what you said about being "a law unto himself", JM. Ever heard of the Cosmic Christ? Probably not - my father learned it at seminary, but for some reason it rarely trickles down to the masses. But it is a strongly held precept for most Protestants and it goes like this: he who never hears the Gospel, or even hears but rejects it, can still run into the Holy Spirit somewhere in his life and fully accept the truths it presents to him. EVERYONE is guaranteed the opportunity for salvation, according to this belief. He need not understand he's accepting Christ in order to do so - the Holy Spirit is part of God, and so is Christ.

So according to most Protestant churches, salvation IS possible for non-Christians and people who never hear about God, the Bible or Jesus. Jesus may be the only way, but you need not accept him CONSCIOUSLY - unconsciously accepting him, or consciously accepting him in whatever form the Holy Spirit presents to you, will do just fine.

And that's why it shouldn't be so important to convert others, to bring us back on topic. Christians and other religious followers are charged with spreading the word - that's just fine. But they shouldn't worry that someone who rejects their information will not be saved.

 

Well, now that's where I disagree. Jesus said, according to the Gospels, that if you reject Him you reject eternal life.


I do believe in the "Cosmic Christ", but only to a certain extent. You'll know if you're following Jesus. Following other religions is not following Him, IMHO. However, I do believe that those who have not heard will have a chance in some way or another. But this following does not contradict the teachings of the Bible. Jesus is the God of the Bible, and in no way would He contradict Himself.

 

It's possible the men who wrote it did contradict themselves though?

 

No, they don't contradict themselves. Keep searching, and you'll find that everything ties in together nicely.

 

What if there is a distinction that needs to be made between Jesus, the carpenter, and Jesus, the Christ?
When Jesus says that only through him will one attain eternal life, is he speaking as the Christ--an embodiment of God, so to speak--or as Jesus, the man, the mortal?
Such a simple distinction would coincide with a most current religious thought, to my understanding.

 

" Keep searching, and you'll find that everything ties in together nicely. "

The more i search and study the more fragmented and dubious it becomes.

 

Are you searching with a critical mind, or an accepting spirit?


StarFire, Let me explain it like this. I'm not exactly sure I know what I'm talking about, but I understand it this way. Jesus was in the body of a man, with the mind of a man, but His personality was that of God's. His spirit was the Holy Spirit. Now, the spirit can be understood as the personality and our eternal being, while the soul can be understood as the mind and the seat of our emotions. So, Jesus couldn't have been wrong. While He went through the same temptations as us, and had to learn things the way we do, He was still God, and when it came to things like this, I think He knew what He was talking about.

 

"Are you searching with a critical mind, or an accepting spirit?"

Both. If god didn't want me to have a critical mind he shouldn't have given me one.

 

Why search with a critical mind? Are you trying to disprove the Bible for others, or prove It for yourself?