ANH is not as perfect as many claim it to be (discussion inside)...

Well, its obvious this isn't going anywhere. You believe that you've answered my argument somewhere in the thread. After re-reading the thread, this leads me to believe that you don't quite understand the points I am trying to make.

Either way, one (or both) of us doesn't understand the other, and it's not gonna get solved soon, so I'm offering a truce and will leave it all behind.

Adios, I think I will go enjoy the rest of these forums now.

 

Prune, suppose Lucas decided the prequels would be better if Anakin did not become Vader. By your logic, that would justify removing all references to Vader's paternity in the OT.

Crafty yet again. If I didnt reply to this stuff, I'd go down in history as wrong and nobody would ever question it! This stuff is lethal!

That is NOT my logic. Its YOUR interpretation of my logic, which is faulty. Totally different. Anakin becoming Lukes father is far more important part of the OT than the other things ive mentioned that can be altered non consequentially to the skeleton of the story. The ones ive mentioned keep the skeleton intact. Your exaggerated example did not.

1) Ive mentioned more sith presence in ANH.
2) Ive mentioned better SFX in the OT
3) Ive mentioned there could be some new scenes for the final battle of the DS.
4) Basically, more action added.

Please, dont play dumb.

Im getting a lot of exaggerations from you guys. Once I get tired of this, im certain that more people will start believing the stuff you guys say, like its fact!

AgentCoop:
And as far as having the beginning of the saga take precedence over the end, that would be fine. If the end hadn't already been indelibly etched into the consciouness of the audience.

It's called painting yourself into a corner.

No its not, its called a fan who doesnt want things to change. And its okay, as long as he doesnt be selfish and would have NO ONE see an updated version if he had the choice. Theres no law stating that Lucas has to keep his new ideas constant with what you guys saw EXACTLY in 1977. But he still keeps the skeleton, and keeps in mind things that need not be changed according to him, and thats what counts.

So if thats all thats preventing you from believing the technologically and idea enhanced, larger scope beginning of the saga and ESB/ ROTJ take precedence over ANH (the end as you put it), then by all means believe this now.

how would a different visual style place any kind of ceiling whatsoever on the kind of adventure Lucas could create?

It limits the scope of the films if left alone. 5 episodes will be on a grand scale, and 1 will be left claustrophobic. Its not just a visual style. Its a visual style that EXPANDS horizons. It WOULD limit the kind of adventure that lucas could create. The taking in of such scenes (awe inspiring epic feel of real cities, creatures and space battles, on a GRAND scale) and believability would'nt compare next to the others. ANH just doesnt have the same out in the open feel. 3 out of 4 star wars movies that have been carefully thought about, then put into production cant be wrong.

EDIT: im sorry, it is now 4 out of 5!

 

We have been saying that the prequels need to keep continuity with the originals, not vice versa; your contention is that the originals need to change to fit any ideas Lucas comes up with in the prequels, so as not to "limit" his options. If the continuity established by the originals means nothing, then Vader's paternity may be ignored. Hence, that fits your logic quite well. You obviously don't believe in changint this, so you fail too see the similarity.

These are two trilogies with two different styles. The OT is more like a western, the prequels are more like a fancy european costume drama. There's no way you could put a major Coruscant sequence in the OT without conflicting with their established style. The galaxy is like a baseball field. The prequels are played inside the diamond, the OT in the outfield. That's the nature of the story.

 

We have been saying that the prequels need to keep continuity with the originals, not vice versa; your contention is that the originals need to change to fit any ideas Lucas comes up with in the prequels, so as not to "limit" his options.

You just said the same thing a post ago! And Ive already replied to that. And i never said ANY.

If the continuity established by the originals means nothing, then Vader's paternity may be ignored.

Remember the skeleton I talked about up there? Its the basic and non-descript outline of events that are supposed to take place.

Things besides these are of secondary importance. They can be altered with no consequence to the story (for those paranoid about the story in ANH).

Of course Luke being Vaders father is part of this. It would still be intact after the enhancements weve been talking about for 5 pages. Dont put words in my mouth. I never said it means nothing. Erroneous reply.

Hence, that fits your logic quite well. You obviously don't believe in changing this, so you fail too see the similarity.

Think what youd like to think. You dont understand the difference, or conveniently ignoring it to make me look bad.

These are two trilogies with two different styles. The OT is more like a western, the prequels are more like a fancy european costume drama... The galaxy is like a baseball field. The prequels are played inside the diamond, the OT in the outfield. That's the nature of the story.

I agree, but not to the extent you do. It doesnt have to feel like the result of a low budget for it to be the outfield or western, as you put it.

There's no way you could put a major Coruscant sequence in the OT without conflicting with their established style.

A senate scene with palpatine in that vast senate chamber would fit right in if done correctly. Coruscant at the end of ROTJ did it perfectly. However, long, extended scenes on the planet wouldnt fit in as well. I agree. As would very bright colors everywhere. That doesnt mean you get rid of ALL bright colored outfits, just tone it down a bit.

Just remember, Lucas was going to have the ROTJ sabre battle take place on coruscant. Im sure he couldve done it without the flashiness of the others, and without saying "forget it, coruscant is a no no for the tone". He chose to save it for monetary reasons and to put it elsewhere in the saga for a more dramatic fall to anakin. (Lava signifies Anakin better, I believe. )

 

Here is the bare bones of the OT:

ANH
The droids are sent to tatooine with a message from Leiah for Obi wan, sold to Luke. Luke comes in contact with Obi Wan, uncle owen and beru are gone somehow, Luke joins Obi Wan and trains as a Jedi. They get onto the millenium falcon with chewie and han to get out of there. They come in contact with Leia who takes them to the rebellion and luke takes off in an X wing to destroy an Imperial super weapon. Luke destroys the superweapon with the force. They celebrate.

Im sure there are plenty more to it than this quick version. But you get the idea: Its like a brief description. Explain all of the main most important ideas and whats supposed to happen. It is up to GL's common sense to not even think about doing away with other concepts, like crucial dialogue done very well, exact scenes that are crucial and are performed perfectly etc. Hell there are scenes that Id like GL to LEAVE ALONE, but if its for the best and theres a good reason for it, then so'll be it.


BTW, A minor point, but I think It wouldve been more believable for Obi Wan to whisper to luke to use the force. Saying it outloud simply doesnt sound too mystical. Id like to hear a whisper and some echoes so it could sound like it was the force more than just a voice over.

BTW, I hope no one is getting the impression that I think GL is going to make these many changes. Its just a brain storm of things to enhance it.

We have no clue what GL is going to do. He may just release the SE's on DVD all we know. But as it stands, the SE shows that he did find a bit of it dated.

 

Prune you twisted what I said to fit your point of view. I meant my post to show why Palpatine wasn't needed.

Obviously The Empire believed they could beat the people who were trying to overthrow them. At the time they thought they could just squah out the rebels. So 2 Siths weren't needed on the Death Star. Only Darth Vader was needed.

Also, your argument for "restoring" ANH is that the technology has changed. Unfourtunately the technology is always changing. What is considered impressive and technologically advanced today is different than what is going to be considered technologically advanced in as little as 5 years from now. So in order for ANH to keep looking "current" they'll need to constantly "restore" it.

 

Prune you twisted what I said to fit your point of view. I meant my post to show why Palpatine wasn't needed.

I addressed it by saying the presence of a sith is hardly felt in that movie. That means either Vader or Palps shouldve shrouded everything with their aura of complete and utter control over the empire. No one truly stepped up to the plate is what im saying. These darn baseball analogies

Oh and it shouldve been mentioned or suggested somehow that Palps intended vader to be subordinate to tarkin. This could possible be done without Palps even appearing!

Also, your argument for "restoring" ANH is that the technology has changed. Unfourtunately the technology is always changing. What is considered impressive and technologically advanced today is different than what is going to be considered technologically advanced in as little as 5 years from now. So in order for ANH to keep looking "current" they'll need to constantly "restore" it.

WRONG. How many topics and posts must I state this in for people to get it?

95% ROTJ's space scenes hold up after 20 years. Theres a plain (either in general technological advancement or the established best range of realness in a SW film) that it reaches when its enough. And ROTJ's DS2 core explosion sequence looks out of this world today. Maybe even perfect, for generations and generations to come. So will it be with todays SW movie effects.

Lets cover both scenarios. Even if computer effects continue to get better, we only need it to be updated to the sagas ballpark range of best SFX. I mean, if SFX slightly changes from TPM to AOTC, theres no need to change it, cause of 2 criteria:

1) Its in the same ballpark range of realness.
2) This estimated range looks better than say ANH's range of realness.

So all it has to be is in the overall range of realness that the best SFX SW film has and that would be EP3. Once again, no need to change EP1. Just update mainly ANH and minor parts of the others and were getting more even here. Thats all that is needed to blend.

Only Darth Vader was needed.

And we didnt even feel HE is in control in ANH.

 

i don't want to get into the nasty part of this thread, but i think you all bring up a lot of great criticisms and defenses.

i love anh and know when it was made and how, and realize that there are big discrepencies that come into play with the scope of the six films because of the aloowances made in filmmaking after anh was realeased.

i have stated once before, but i think it bears repeating here, that the order in which the films have been made places the SW sga in a really unique position. if GL had started with EP 1, the Ep IV would likely be very different, with very different demands from the storyteller. can you imagine seeing Ep II, and then anh with no mention of anakin as luke and leia's father? or no yoda? or no palpatine? that may seem like continuity problems to some, but to me it allows the whole saga to be played out in a more risky style, unfolding unexpectedly, with revelations coming at the rigtht time. no other film series has this strange luxury of having a chance to unfold without standard plotting. and for the most part, it works pretty well.

i believe in the fact that everything in the PT looks nicer because it was a "more elegant time" whereas the OT has beat up looking shops and graphics and driods, which in some ways reflects the budget GL used on anh. who else would put a pair of binoculars ona broomstick and vaccuum cleaner and call it a droid? it was great to see a beat up looking universe then.

maybe anh does work best as a stand alone film, but it's what it is when viewed as a part of a series and it's pretty darn good.

changes happened to the series as it went along, but i can live with that.

this is a unique series for so many reasons pertaining to the history of filmmaking as well as the history of the characters.

joe

 

Prune

I was lucky enough to see ANH the first time and yeah, annoying as it is for you to hear, it really did blow me away. Watching Ben Kenobi turn off the tracker beam whilst balanced at such a terrifying height and the fantastic moment when the escape pod hurtles towards Tatooine etc, all these are images that I can sit and watch and be instantly transported back to being a wide-eyed little kid again. Its difficult to explain, but that is part of the magic of the movie for me.

Just like the day you leave college for the last time, say bon voyage to all your mates together knowing your not going to see them all together again in that same enclosed environment (or similar situation) and then years later hear a cd of the event that brings it all flooding back to you, that is the effect that SW has on me and masses like me.

I love ANH and until I started reading these forums a while ago, I had no idea of half these "plot holes" and "bad FX" that people discuss here. I wonder if reading these sort of posts where people pick away at minute details, savaging the enjoyement they once had when they watched the films, is of any benefit.

Regardless, yeah I can see the things you're talking about. I've long thought Vader's voice sounds different, higher and more nasal, the lightsabre battle is slower and less aggressive, the equipment does look primitive and so on. The point is, does the average viewer really care, and does the real ANH fan care?. If the plot works, the magic is there and the sense of adventure which, to me, is the catalyst of ANH carries the action and dialogue along, what is the problem?.

No, its not as perfect as it is claimed to be if you don't want it to be, but for those of us who truly love this movie it isn't that far from it.

But what really lifted me was when I saw it at the cinema again in 1997 and realised how brilliantly it had aged in 20 years. The additional scenes were great, they didn't really get in the way of the narrative, hell even the Greedo shoots first sequence didn't bug me. The main thing was that it felt as fresh then as it did in 1977, and I sat with a few people who hadn't seen it before who all said they thought it was a phenomenal.

Does Vader's stature, voice etc etc etc REALLY matter?. If it does, you probably shouldn't be watching it any more because what is a magical movie for many has become a sour experience for you. You need a new film to re-lift your spirits my friend, because ANH evidently wont do it.

 

For those of you that absolutely love the feel of ANH and think its perfect, even with "inferior" FX; why do you think cosmetic changes would interrupt the "feel"? If the storyline is involving, and the characters are dead on, then why would some of the changes prune listed be bad?

 

Better or worse, it will be different anyway...

Where does objectivity end and where does subjectivity begin?

 

<b>2)Where is the Sith fear factor?

In ANH we get some governor. What the...? It loses half of its soul right there. Id like to see Palpatine doing SOMETHING in this movie.</b>

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What an insult to Peter Cushing, I thought he played the part of Tarkin brilliantly and was an absolutely superb villian. Cushing was a master and it was a pitty he couldn't be in the sequels (LETS HOPE FOR EP111)

 

GMTarkin, you've got a point,

If anyware, the hierarchy in ANH should be explained in episode III.

 

laugh-it-up:
Does Vader's stature, voice etc etc etc REALLY matter?. If it does, you probably shouldn't be watching it any more because what is a magical movie for many has become a sour experience for you. You need a new film to re-lift your spirits my friend, because ANH evidently wont do it.

You see, once somebody points weird things out of ANH, theyre automatically listed as HATING the movie in all of its levels etc etc. This is not the case. Im just telling it like it is. It will not fit seemlessly into the 6 hour movie. Thats the whole point of this topic! SO when this message gets buried in replies again, im sure people will once again misinterpret and post stuff like: "Well if you think this movie's so bad for SFX, then dont watch it... if you hate ANH so bad etc etc blah blah".

GMTarkin:
What an insult to Peter Cushing, I thought he played the part of Tarkin brilliantly and was an absolutely superb villian. Cushing was a master and it was a pitty he couldn't be in the sequels (LETS HOPE FOR EP111)

I also though Cushing did a fantastic job, but the problem is just his chain of command. If Vader was higher rank than him and called the shots, us getting the feel that HE was the one with radiating power and control over everything, while Cushing performs perfectly as he did, Id have ZERO problem. The thing is, its the other way around. He impressively shrouds over the sith, and theres no explanation. Its a wondrous performance, but leaves the sith's total and utter control feel out, where it without a doubt should be (at the peak of the empires reign). That sticks out of place in any SW film. Until we get a canon explanation from the movies, it feels like a lack of development with looking at the big pictur, the saga.

To both of you: here are a few quotes that show me comparing ANH with the other pieces to the GIANT movie at hand 'Cause thats the real issue, isnt it?


- I mean, watch ANH, then ESB. Dont tell me you dont see a difference in scenario development and action sequences that is the signature/ the feel of Star Wars. The story took a lame turn after they boarded the Falcon compared to the other movies IMO...

- Being the first one out is not an excuse if its supposed to be part 4. I dont care if he DID intend it to be a stand alone film, its not now, its a huge saga, and thats what counts.

- There IS 0-2% sith fear factor compared to the other movies...

- It feels too weird and disconnected from the rest of this 12 hour movie.

- the Vader we have grown to know in the rest of the movies would not put his hands on his waist and shift his weight like that to show attitude.

- the citizens of the galaxy or a claymation "streetfighter-esque" game constitutes the likenesses of the Rancor, Wampa, and huge fearful sea creatures and monster coming up in AOTC!?

- That sounds all well and good on paper, but compared to the rest of the movies final battles, after constant and repeated viewing of that scene, it gets boring...

- You sir, obviously have tunnel vision. Your perception and many others need to be altered. This is not to be treated as just 1 classic movie. Its a tiny piece in 1 gigantic movie.

- I am a SW fan and not some classic vintage film connoisseur. I respect its classic status. HOWEVER, I couldnt care less about those matters when the homogeneous of ALL of his movies will be muddled if it stays in that state. Rightly so I look at the 6 hour film (the big picture) and see a crucial part of the mega-story that has more potential. Sue me. Lynch me. I dont give a flying ****. I believe in the long run, when some of you mature and see this huge picture, that I will be proven right in the matters of homogeneous blending of the 12 hour movie.

- One thing: how the hell do we start EP1-3 with more sith fear factor and control of the evil scheming than in EP4, (Some human Tarkin in command of the empire as shown to us) the middle of the saga!?! EP1 is peacetime for christ sake and its got more si

 

GMTarkin:
What an insult to Peter Cushing, I thought he played the part of Tarkin brilliantly and was an absolutely superb villian. Cushing was a master and it was a pitty he couldn't be in the sequels (LETS HOPE FOR EP111)

I also though Cushing did a fantastic job, but the problem is just his chain of command. If Vader was higher rank than him and called the shots, us getting the feel that HE was the one with radiating power and control over everything, while Cushing performs perfectly as he did, Id have ZERO problem. The thing is, its the other way around. He impressively shrouds over the sith, and theres no explanation. Its a wondrous performance, but leaves the sith's total and utter control feel out, where it without a doubt should be (at the peak of the empires reign). That sticks out of place in any SW film. Until we get a canon explanation from somewhere, it feels like a lack of development with looking at the big pictur, the saga.

The only way that should be resolved is in episode 3. GL has to include Tarkin in order to show why he was in charge of Vader in ANH. Otherwise the saga will not fit together. Just because Tarkin is not Sith doesn't mean he's not an interesting character that should be put in Ep3 (he blew up alderaan remember, nothing to do with Vader).

 

I will now list the things I loved about this movie:

1) The opening crawl
2) Vader and stormtroopers entering and handling the rebels like they did.
3) The scenes and interaction between R2 and Threepio.
4) Lukes intro
5) Basically everything in the first hour. Lukes binary sunset scene (and the fantastic music that goes with it), scenes with the lars.
6) Obi Wans introduction.
7) The ENTIRE Obi Wan's homestead scene
8) The entire sequence in the cantina (not a few superficial things, like fake looking aliens.)
9) Intro to Han solo and Chewie. (minus greedo shooting first)
10) Hans conversation with Jabba (except he wouldnt step on his tail.)
11) Their takeoff.
12) Luke practicing dueling and deflecting on the falcon.
13) The gang infiltrating the Death Star, dressing like troopers, then opening fire like that.
14) Obi Wan and Vader fencing. (minus that edit mistake in the middle of it.
15) The idea of them escaping with the falcon, headed for Yavin, while vader has a homing beacon on their ship to locate the base. (what he does with this information is up for debate. Lets say he sends the closest ground troops because the DS is not functional yet. Somehow, I dont care how, a ground troop battle shouldve taken place IMO)

16)The idea of Luke and an X wing class raid the DS and get busted up. (id like a larger scope of this battle however. Different fronts, like above Yavin).
17) The idea of Luke scoring the big hit.
18) The ending throne room sequence.
19) Tarkins portrayal, just lessen him a rank.
20) the Imperial meeting scene. Perfect, except lack of subtle yet sinister music in the background.
21) The music that it has, except the music should be crisper. Take ROTJ's opening crawl SW theme and paste it into the opening of this movie. Just crisper audio quality.

You see, its just how some of this comes off that seems to me like it would be much better executed for maximum excitement if done after ESB or now. I see that it lacks a quality that the other movies have in bucketfulls, and I comment about it.

 

I suspect a personal connection between Palpatine and Tarkin...

 

I suspect a personal connection between Palpatine and Tarkin...
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You could certainly be right there. Tarkin may have helped Palpatine become Emperor. They could have had a long history.

I think Tarkin should remain as he is in ANH (the top villian), and that Episode 3 should show just why that is. Just because he isn't a force user doesn't mean he isn't clever, ruthless and powerful. He is also much better than Vader at running an organisation and vast territories, Vader is more of a hitman/agent, assigned to assist in special missions.

 

He is also much better than Vader at running an organisation and vast territories. Vader is more of a hitman/agent, assigned to assist in special missions.

Who said that they had to have a big boss human in charge of territory, and everyone in ANH? Vader did perfectly fine in ESB and ROTJ as 2nd in command, he still was an agent, yet we still felt his presence 100% better in those films than in ANH. Hitman/agent or not, its flat in that department IMO. Hed be perfectly in place as head honcho in ANH. Tarkin couldve still been in charge of territories and been 1 lesser rank that Vader.

 

"Someone tell me. What did they do? Take a BREAK!? Vader doing a couple of evil things, yet still being a b**ch to some human is not my idea of the true sith control aura that comes with every other SW film."

Lucas says himself in the Annotated Screenplays that Tarkin was there so that Vader wouldn't seem like a superhero, with endless power. Anyway, when I first saw ANH, my impression was that they were two independent Imperial figures who both had basically the same power. I got no impression that Vader was Tarkin's slave, or even his subordinate, and I still don't.

 

Personally I always thought Tarkin was more than a little scared of Vader. Watch his face as Vader force chokes the power maniac, when he says "Vader, release him" it sounds half-way towards a plea and far less a command.

 

By the way, am I the only one who thinks that, at least not for a WHILE, Star Wars will not be seen as a 12 hour movie? It's not like everyone will forget that the OT came out first. And then there's the (hopefully) small chance that AotC and Ep. 3 will suck, which would cause the PT to fade into general obscurity in future generations, leaving the OT as classics.

 

And let's look at this "12 Hour Movie" idea for a bit. When all the films are in the can (as they say in the industry) and we sit down to watch the entire epic at one time, one now has to look at the thing as a single work. By the time our hypothetical viewers get to ANH they will already have sat through some six-plus hours of film. In those six hours they will have no doubt been assaulted by and awash in a sea visual spectacle. Aliens, space ships, epic battles, CGI everywhere. I'm sure it will be quite the sight, and if the prequels turn out right they will have been left in a state of some emotional exhaustion.

But it doesn't end here, because there are still three movies to go. And coming in where it does, at the halfway point, ANH has just about the perfect tone. Nothing too heavy, and not over the top. It's sparseness in some areas will, in this marathon of moviegoing, be it's greatest strength. And it's "claustrophobic" feel (although I have honestly NEVER heard it described this way by ANYONE else) will serve as a welcome lull in the action. Otherwise, the relentless sensory overload of half a day's worth of special-effects-laden action sequences, sweeping alien vistas and scenes crammed to the gills with all manner of CGI curiosities will serve only to leave the viewers numb. By the time they get to Anakin's redemption, they won't care any more.

A symphony is not composed by striking the same note over and over. There must be an ebb and flow of notes, moods and even the occasional silence so that when the crescendo comes it means something. The same goes for a film. Striking the same emotional and visual notes again and again isn't going to move anybody. In the end it's just noise.

 

Of course it's not perfect, but it's enjoyable all the same. Basically, ANH had a simple, fairy tale plot-- good knights (Han, Luke, Ben) rescue fair princess (Leia) from dark tower. Evil Wizard (Darth) tries to stop them. What made it revolutionary was the sci-fi/fantasy setting. By combining ships with swords, technology with magic (the force), Lucas took a cliche and somehow made it feel new. Of course the scope of the movie is far more limited and self-contained than it could have been, simply because Lucas had to make this movie a "Stand-alone" film, not knowing if he would have the budget to do more.

 

Every problem with ANH comes from the fact that it did so well that GL was able to then proceed to flesh out his vision with more movies. He didn't think ANH would be the hit it was, so he made adjustments to his original story so as to make ANH a self-contained film.

Hindsight is always 20-20, and viewing ANH with ESB, RotJ, TPM, and soon AotC as a backdrop, we see some problems with technology, story, and continuity. ...now, when viewed in the context that it was first viewed(1977), ANH is a near perfect movie experience that those who were fortunate enough to see in theaters will never forget.