Do you feel Qui-Gon's importance in the film is necessary?

I think Qui-Gon is much more important to the films than the people who don't like him.

 

See, now with regards to Qui-Gon, I'm always conflicted.

On the one hand, Neeson's potrayal of the Jedi Master was superb, IMHO. Certainly the best actor in TPM (aside from Ian McDiarmid ). Though I wouldn't call it Neeson's best role (for me, his best role was in 'Michael Collins') he did his job well.

Yet....why can't Obi Wan be the one who found Skywalker? I mean, having Qui-Gon as the main character....its like having old Ben in ANH as the hero while Luke does nothing until Ben dies. Look at my sig: the reason I like that rewrite so much is the fact that Kenobi is the hero, not Qui-Gon. And that doesn't mean Qui-Gon doesn't do anything. He's the brains of the outfit....if I may use 'Batman Beyond' as a comparison:

Qui-Gon--Bruce Wayne
Obi Wan--Terry/Batman

Just MHO

 

I agree that Liam Neeson gave a good performance as Qui-Gon. However, making him the "star" of the movie is so damn pointless!!! I mean, it screws with the whole saga!! Episode I should have been about OBI-WAN and Anakins friendship, not QUI-GON and Anakin's friendship! Then in Episode II, they still have a friendship, but it starts to go bad. It shouldn't be, Episode I: well Obi-Wan never really had to much to do with Anakin, and then, Episode II: Obi-Wan and Anakin have a kind of uneasy friendship. Doesn't that seem like too big a jump?? Isn't that bad, uncompelling storytelling? What's the point???

 

In complete agreement with Darth Torgo. And don't forget all the things said in ROTJ....it feels different now doesn't it. Man, that old Ben sure loved his 'from a certain point of view'

 

Yeah, if the movie was alone, Qui would be cool, and the rest of the saga would fit like a glove. But given that he is never mentioned (except in the hopefully good ultimate editions) in atleast half of the rest of the saga, maybe more (his presence seems to be forced or convienet in AOTC) he is not even mentioned... it would have been better if he was not there in such a roll.

 

>>>"It certainly wasn't planned for him to be the apprentice of some guy who left the Jedi to join the Sith because Lucas didn't even know who the Sith was going to be when he finished with TPM. It's backwards, Qui-Gon wasn't there for these things but now these things are being used to justify his existence, even though they came after the fact."



Have you got anything to back that up, or is that speculation?

>>>>"And ultimately, there is nothing they couldn't have done without Qui-Gon, or at least without Qui-Gon taking over the whole bloody film in TPM, by simply doing some minor tweaking to the script."

How about having him be the first Jedi to speak from beyond the grave? Obi Wan might have had some problems filling that role...


>>>>"But given that [Qui Gon] is never mentioned (except in the hopefully good ultimate editions) in atleast half of the rest of the saga, maybe more (his presence seems to be forced or convienet in AOTC) he is not even mentioned... it would have been better if he was not there in such a roll."

No Jedi is mentioned in the OT other than Yoda, Anakin and Obi Wan. Does that mean that EVERY jedi in the prequels is a continuity error? And the planets, other characters etc? No.

If there was a point in the OT where Qui Gon ought to be mentioned because he is relevant, then I'd agree with you, but there isn't. If he's crowbarred into the "ultimate Editions" I'd be pretty surprised. (But then again, I was surprised to hear that Natalie Portman is apparently being crowbarred into ROTJ...)

 

It must be since George added him.

 

How about having him be the first Jedi to speak from beyond the grave? Obi Wan might have had some problems filling that role...


We don't need Qui-Gon's voice to do that, Yoda could have found out some other way, he could have already known. He could have discovered it in deep meditation, which is exactly what happened. WE don't actually have to know whoever it was he heard or even exactly how he learned it. In his meditations, he discovered such and such a thing, "friends long gone" or whatever, and been able to pass it onto Obi-Wan. Easy enough. The fact is, Qui-Gon wasn't planned into it. He wasn't even a very large role in the first couple of drafts, poor shafted Obi-Wan had the central Jedi role, young but very talented Jedi Knight. George didn't even KNOW who was going to be his Sith apprentice in AOTC the time because one of the guy's who draw, I can't remember his name, talked about the various options they went over before coming up with and deciding on Dooku. Qui-Gon wasn't there to justify something else, the something else is being used to try and justify Qui-Gon. Which means Qui-Gon didn't need to be there as such a large role to begin with. Qui-Gon could still be the guy who talks from the grave he'd just have had a smaller role in TPM as he was originally planned to have had.

 

I had no problems in relating to Qui-Gon's role in TPM, in relation to AOTC. When you compare Qui-Gon's handling of Anakin in compare to Obi-Wan's, it's quite easy to see. Also, it seemed to me that Qui-Gon's presence emphasizes Obi-Wan's own failure with Anakin in the second and third films.


I noticed one other disturbing factor - from Episode 1 to 6, Obi-Wan seemed to maintain doubts about Anakin. From the time he warned Qui-Gon about listening to the Council about Anakin, to his warning Luke in Episode 6 that Anakin/Vader was beyond redemption. No wonder he was the wrong man for the job.

 

NO. Qui-Gonn was not in the first drafts of TPM, we've established that. But his relevance in the SW universe is unmistakable. First, he did discover Anakin. More importantly, he was the model of how a Jedi should act. Maintain a strong connection to the Force at all times and act upon it's will. Despite the misgivings of the Jedi Council, Qui-Gonn determined to train Anakin anyway, knowing full well that Ani was the chosen one and would bring balance to the force.

 

I was thinking, if you took away 3 things bashers dont like:

1) Chosen one
2) Midichloriens
3) QuiGon

You'd get:

Obiwan: I have encountered a boy who is strong in the force, I want him trained
Mace: He is to old
Obiwan: But he is strong in the force
Ki-Adi: So? Lots of people are
Obiwan: Damn it, I can train him just aswell as you guys anyway. He is strong in the force and I will train him
Yoda: But grave danger I fear in his training
Obiwan: He's a nice kid, Iam training him
Yoda: About this I have a bad feeling

It would be so 1 dimensional, and would make Obiwan seem stupid rather than tradgic

 

Not at all, Slave2.

Imagine this:

-----

Obi-Wan Kenobi is a competent, well-intentioned Jedi Knight--a little full of himself, but he's growing up--who believes himself ready to take on a responsibility of Anakin's magnitude. Yoda, who knows Obi better than anyone, has enough faith in his former Padawan to trust him with the burden.

However, Anakin's vast and unpredictable powers quickly clash with Obi-Wan's by-the-book training, and the two of them, despite their long-standing friendship, lock horns routinely over the hows and whys of the way of the Force.

Seeing Anakin's potential, Palpatine slowly moves in, telling the young Jedi what he wants to hear and poisoning him with resentment toward the Jedi order. Obi-Wan's control over Anakin begins to slide--they both know that Anakin's powers exceed his own, and Anakin has always believed, albeit subconsciously, that his powers exempt him from the rules.

Perhaps Anakin's brashness and arrogance result in an accident; innocents or fellow Jedi are killed or injured. Kenobi and Yoda are faced with a choice: Do what they can to keep Anakin in line, or expel him from the order and risk whatever comes of it. Not wanting to turn Skywalker into an outright enemy, the Council lets him off with a warning--but their reprimand is enough to anger him further.

Sensing that Anakin is slipping away, Obi-Wan sits down with him and speaks as a friend, rather than a superior. He tells Anakin stories of his own reckless youth, praises his student's great skills, and paints a picture of all the good deeds Anakin will continue to do as a Jedi. Anakin listens, but isn't thoroughly convinced; he believes he can do more on his own than he can with the Council's rules holding him back.

Palpatine expresses his sympathies toward the dejected Anakin, and gives a standing offer of a place in the Republic's military cabinet should his ties to the Jedi ever fray. Anakin politely declines at first, but as his conflict with his superiors wears on, he begins to reconsider...

 

"It would be so 1 dimensional, and would make Obiwan seem stupid rather than tradgic"

Obi Wan didn't seem stupid in Oakes' rewrite IMHO. And having that dialog you posted ensures the ROTJ conversation makes more sense. Otherwise, we'd have to go by Nrf's funny little 'edit'

"*Qui Gon* wanted me to instruct him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him just as well as *Qui Gon* but *Qui Gon* was wrong."

*dies laughing*

 

Qui-Gon Jinn, in terms of importance in the entire saga, falls behind only Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Luke Skywalker. His role in TPM wasn't 100% necessary but what character's role truly is? Qui-Gon has definately become my favorite character of the entire saga because he embodies the ideal Jedi Knight.

 

"Qui-Gon has definately become my favorite character of the entire saga because he embodies the ideal Jedi Knight."

He could do all that without unsurping Kenobi's role, IMHO. Umm...if I'm using the wrong terms, sorry. English ain't my first language.

 

Before AOTC I thought Qui-Gon's role mirrored Luke's in ROTJ, in that they are the only two people who have faith in Anakin and that he'll do the right thing. Neither Yoda or Kenobi seem to have that faith, especially in ROTJ where Kenobi thinks Anakin is irredeemable.

Qui-Gon was a rebellious Jedi who didn't always follow the council, but trusted his own instincts. Luke does the same when he confronts Vader (going against Yoda's and Kenobi's insistence that Anakin won't turn back from the dark side).

In the end Luke's (and Qui-Gon's) faith in Anakin is proved right. The similiarity between Luke and Qui-Gon goes as far as them having the same coloured lightsaber (I bit of a stretch I know, especially after seeing all those green sabers in AOTC).
Looking at it this way, you could say that Qui-Gon's spirit reappears at the end of the saga in the form of Luke...(i'm reaching here I know).
Perhaps one way of looking at it though.

 

Of coarse he's important, Qui Gon Jinn is the man. Even know he's dead. A dead man

 

Well, I know Liam Neeson's Qui-gon was important to me... without his presence I would not have gone to see the movie more than once -let alone the five times I did go see it!

I also think the movie could have done more to establish the character of Obi-wan, but I don't blame Qui-gon's presence for the lack of development of Kenobi's character - I blame GL who chose to give us 10 minutes of pod racing and a lot of Jar-Jar rather than a couple more scenes between Obi-wan and Qui-gon that would have furthered his character.

 

I also think the movie could have done more to establish the character of Obi-wan, but I don't blame Qui-gon's presence for the lack of development of Kenobi's character - I blame GL who chose to give us 10 minutes of pod racing and a lot of Jar-Jar rather than a couple more scenes between Obi-wan and Qui-gon that would have furthered his character.

Now that's something I can agree with!

 

I fond it very odd how people can dislike the podrace because it doesn't have Obi Wan in it, or dislike Jar Jar because he doesn't do anything for Obi Wan's character.

Other than "because I wanted to see Obi Wan" (whose presence was obviously not necessary for the scenes in question), where's the connection?

Would a scene that doesn't serve to further the plot really be a good idea to stick in at the expense of one which does?

 

"I fond it very odd how people can dislike the podrace because it doesn't have Obi Wan in it, or dislike Jar Jar because he doesn't do anything for Obi Wan's character."

Random Nerd,

If you are referring to my post, let me make it clear my problems with the pad race have nothing to do with it not having Obi-wan in it...it has to do with 10 mnutes of screen time spent on a video game sequence that, at least for me, became very tedious and boring after the first viewing. It was the same thing over and over... it lasted one lap too long and ate up screen time that could have been better spent developing characters, IMO. (But then, I value character development in my Star Wars as much as i enjoy the cool FX.)

And as for Jar-Jar...far too much time was wasted with his silly antics. I figured out he was supposed to a good intentioned but clumsy character almost immediately. I did not need umpteen scenes of him goofing about to reinforce this view... less Jar-Jar, more Obi-wan.

My problems with Jar-Jar also have nothing to do with Obi-wan... they are two separate issues. However, had GL cut back a bit on the overdone antics of Jar-Jar's character, there would have been more time to develop Obi-wan's character - and JJ would STILL have been fully developed as the bumbling charcature he was...

 

Qui-Gon is important in the SW SAGA for another reason:

He was the first Jedi to encounter a Sith Lord in millenia.

True, other Jedi may have seen Sith Lords in the past, but the Jedi must not have lived to tell the tale.

 

I disagree with those who say Qui-Gon should not have been in TPM, and instead of him we should have had more Obi-Wan. I will take counter this argument.

Let me make the brief point that you would not say this if TPM was your first SW film. It is only because of the OT and that it was made out of order that this argument is even mentioned.

Starting off Obi-Wan as a padawan learner allows more growth of his character. SW is an epic, that spans many years. To have started off Obi-Wan as a Jedi Knight with a padawan is not nearly as epic.

I love the idea of seeing Obi-Wan as a padawan, and who was his master -- Qui-Gon Jinn.

Lucas likes to have characters change. Examples:

Senator Palpatine - Chancellor - Emperor
Queen Amidala - Senator - Mrs. Skywalker
Slave Anakin - Jedi Knight - Vader
Circuit C-3PO - silver - gold

 

I've got it!

I know why Qui-Gon upstaged Obi-Wan in TPM (cause that's what this thread's about, isn't it?)

EVERY main character in the starwars saga has a maximum of 3 episodes in a leading role. No exeptions. In the other episodes they're either not born yet, dead, absent or in a supporting role:

Anakin, Padmé, Luke, Leia, Han, even Yoda and Palpatine fit into this design.

Obi-Wan's prime: AOTC, episode III, ANH.

Why should Obi-Wan upstage all the rest?

 

Better for Kenobi to upstage the rest than to end up in an entire movie with nothing more than 'Yes Master' lines and a colourless personality.

And Qui Gon doesn't fit your theory....he's the main character in TPM, but where is he now? Reduced to recycled "Anakin!!! Noooo!" in AOTC, and it's uncertain whether he will appear in Episode 3.