Senate Israel/Palestine

But that's the kind of response that is more "conspiracy theory-esque." I just don't think it serves in any meaningful purpose except to try and deflect blame.

Sure, nothing previously discussed matters, it's just that the vast zionist conspiracy keeps the Palestinians down. That's a cop out.

 

I don't believe in conspiracies - I can tell you that over here, it's more a matter of guilt. You really wonder why Germany always supports Israel? They'll never back the Palestinians as long as there's still one Nazi alive. They can't sell it to the public. In the EU, they'll always be just one notch more critical of Israel than the country that's least critical of Israel. Even though Merkel hates Netanyahu's guts.

In the US, I don't know. I don't think it's a question of guilt, there. More a question of identification. There's a healthy fear of Muslims, while Jews are pretty well accepted in society. With that, a friendly bond was established between the two countries that´s now lasted for decaded, and the two have become interdependent in their respective strategic visions.

 

This seems to be your main theme Mr44. Yet you seem unwilling or incapable of understanding the treatment and conditions that the Palestinian people have suffered and endured at the hands of Israel and its allies and the effect of that treatment on the national psyche. It's a form of national trauma. The fact that the Palestinians have not completely imploded is a testament to their fortitude. It's OK for you and others to judge them from the comfy seats, but you just don't seem to grasp the extent to which the Israeli occupation, the checkpoints, the refugee camps, the blockade, the economic sanctions arising from the theft of arable land and water aquifers undermines the maintenance of a society which would be worthy of a Mr44 honor badge.

The Palestinian people have been systematically brutalised for over 60 years, yet you show contempt when they act in a brutal manner and the US implements policy which forever punishes them for that brutality. It's a generational thing now and the subject of deliberate Israeli policy as clearly the victims will be punished for fighting back rather than the aggressors, who are protected and funded and supported.

The Palestinians are in quite a unique situation as their oppressors are actually in violation of a plethora of UNSC and UNGC Resolutions, various Articles of the Geneva Conventions and of fundamental principles of international law and their plight has been extensively documented in literally thousands of reports from international human rights organisations. Yet despite this, it seems that the position of the US is that it is the Palestinians who must change, who must make concessions, who must not take steps without the consent of the opressors. Very bizarre.

Whilst I agree with you that the Palestinians must rehabilitate their image if they are going to be able to capture the attention of the US, I think the Palestinian population can only 'change' (and in this sense I'm using that word as code for 'heal') when some of the conditions change which might promote some semblence of moral fortitude. A good start might be for the illegal Israeli settlements to cease and the return of stolen water acquifers and arable land. Israel currently has its knee on the Palestinian throat so perhaps attention should be focused on that?

The current Palestinian path of seeking UN recognition is not a game of brinkmanship. It is a legitimate course of action which is available to them and which does not require the consent of the US and Israel. It should be abundantly clear by now that Israel does not want a peace deal which requires them to comply with international law and so peace 'negotiations' will drag on indefinitely. Israel has the better PR machine so no loss to them. This is a way of taking positive action without hindrance and delay from an unwilling peace partner. I'm not at all surprised you don't approve.

 

No wonder our Debate Game wasn't a smashing success... Hoth didn't participate.

 

LOH, I don't disagree with anything you posted. As Watto suggested, the problem is that your post is all academic. If yours was a thesis paper on the plight of the Palestinians, you would have a good start. If you want to throw it out as a next debate game topic, where each side is allowed a certain number of words to explore the nuances of the issue, it could be interesting. But it's not how the real world works. The moment the Palestinians sink down to "being brutal" as you said, they move farther away from achieving their goals. It doesn't matter how any other country acts. As I explored before, there are traits that all successful emerging/post-colonial nation-states share. There are also traits that all failed collectives sank down to.

The Palestinians will gain nothing if they rush recognition through the UN before those international institutions are ready to accept them. It will be another case of the Palestinians upholding their pride, but not gaining tangible benefits. Even if they're justly compared to abused children, they have to stop acting like schoolboy bullies, even if it is in response to another bully.

In fact, if the fractured Palestinian areas go so far as to achieve statehood without a larger peace agreement or internal reforms within the Palestinian leadership first, it would play into Israel's hands. Israel would be able to legally declare unrestricted war on the new state, and the matter would be solved once and for all. So I guess, without peace, it would be the fastest way to resolve things.

 

And the Israelis aren't Muslim. The "jews" bulldoze houses, the "muslims" feel that they have a claim to the entire Holy Land carte blanche.

Don't you see how this is exactly Mr44's point? It doesn't matter what the root cause of the "blame" is, as long as the world continues to focus on blame and feed the Palestinian's pathologic need to be seen as the sole victims, the cycle of violence will continue, and nothing will ever change.

I'm all for a two-state solution that is fair and equitable to both parties, but this end-run through the UN is ultimately going to cause harm, for multiple reasons. If UN funds do end up going towards weapons used against Israel, the US will be under tremendous domestic pressure to cut off all funding to the organization. If the GOP wins the White House, that could happen anyway, which wouldn't be good for anyone.

There are a lot of organizations at the UN which do an awful lot of good around the world; it would be a shame to see them lose American funding.

Peace,

V-03

 

Your reasoning is entirely backward. As is 44's. You turn the situation on its head so drastically I'm getting queasy. As if it's not enough that you have no empathy towards those under siege, you actually turn around and blame the besieged. Oh, no, it's worse than that: you say it's the fault of the besieged if the US decides to cut funding to a worldwide organization.

You guys should be ashamed of yourself. You know full well what the situation is. Palestine is trying to gain legitimacy - something promised to them by the US, among others, ages ago - the same way that Israel once did, but now suddenly it's all wrong. And why? I haven't heard one convincing argument. But I know why.

Because it's inconvenient to you.

 

No, it's just that you're not looking at the situation as it exists. The mentality that you are illustrating is what is keeping the conflict going, and it's the furthest thing away from a solution. Your characterization is simply blinded by paypack, and it's not a productive path. No one is blaming the besieged, although I'd also say that such loaded words can apply to either side. That's the problem. Time and time again, your justification boils down to a variation of "it's not fair!" Ok, so the Palestinians were promised something by other countries decades ago. Do you really think there is no other reason based on the collective actions carried out by the Palestinians why this hasn't been achieved? If the Palestinians want legitimacy, then they have to act in a legitimate manner, even if it means swallowing pride for productivity. They have to rise above the situation and demonstrate that they can earn what they want.

The Palestinians will never achieve what they want by blowing up a single bus full of people here and there. They will never achieve what they want with random rocket attacks. They will never achieve what they want by diverting aid money to but weapons. These tactics have never been successful, and after 60+ years, they have to be changed. The quickest way to ensure foreign intervention is to have a situation where a big guy is beating up on a little guy. The West, and especially the US, is extremely ideological in this regard. Again, I've asked you before, but why do you think NATO just interceded in Libya? Why do you think US troops fought and died in Somalia, and Bosnia? Right now, in any comparison, the Palestinians are the Qudaffi's, not the other way around. They will never achieve what they want if Hamas and Fatah are allowed to have a strangle hold on their political voice, and wage war against each other like they are the crips and the bloods. There may be valid environmental factors which allowed this situation to fester, but this holds true no matter what the government of Israel does.

What will bring the Palestinians their long term goals is to rise above the situation and capture the moral high ground. What will get the Palestinians what they want is to unify around a marketable identity which will open up the international market. What will bring about change is to stop installing leadership that is based on anger. If these things don't happen, then we'll be posting about the conflict for it's 100th anniversary, and you'll still be pointing out how unfair the situation is. And it's all a terrible waste.

 

Mr44, I agree 100% that the Palestinians will never achieve an equitable peace resolution by resorting to terrorism. Blowing up buses in 'retribution' to Israeli violence clearly perpetuates a cycle of violence which the Palestinians simply cannot win, plus it does them no favours on the international stage. Israel can at least dress up its acts of terrorism as 'strenuous military defence'. Not so the Palestinians. The Palestinians (and I refer to both PA and Hamas) are in need of serious PR rehabilitation (thanks in part to the Arafat era) -which is why I am so opposed to Hamas as I believe they are a lost cause (see posts above).

However, I think our area of disagreement revolves more around the recent moves by Abbas for Palestinian membership in the UN and its related bodies such as UNESCO. In my view, this is exacly the kind of move which the US and Israel should be supporting as it binds the Palestinian Authority to the various constitutions and charters which underpin these institutions. By giving the Palestininans a library card, it is implicit that they must adhere to the rules of the library, which means no loud talking and a prompt return of borrowed books. Book burning will result in the library card being ripped up for all time.

The PLO began life as a terrorist organisation, but it has demonstrably changed over the decades. The Palestinian Authority (and its predeccesors) has recognised the right of Israel to exist in peace for over 20 years - it has publicly denounced terrorism (although some Israeli hardliners still consider that Arafat only denounced 'tourism' of all kinds ) and has engaged in a peace process. There is of course a minority of Palestinians who are still in PLO mode, similarly, there is a minority of Israeli militant hardliners who will never agree to a peaceful negotiation.

The main theme of Israeli and US oppositions seems to be around the unlilateral nature of the move. In this regard you must consider the Palestinian position: no prospect of military success against the slow annexation of 'occupied' land including holy sites, water acquifers, arable land, farms, water sources, and no prospect of negotiating an equitable resolution with Israel because any equitable resolution involves Israel having to comply with international law which it is unwilling to do. The Palestinian leadership knows it does not have and never will have the support of the US.

It is hardly then surprising that the only legitimate way forward is to approach the UN and its related entities for recognition and membership. What I am seeing by the US and Israeli opposition to these moves is the extension of the policy of 'collective punishment'. Nothing more. Clearly any negotiated peace deal will involve massive concessions by the Palestinians, I think those concessions will be easier to sell to the Palestinian people if the Palestinian people are given back some semblence of dignity on the international stage. By 'people' I am referring to the average joes, not the likes of Hamas.

I simply reject the notion that the PA must not take steps without the consent of the Israel and the US. Israel is not a honest peace partner. Let the Palestinians take their chances with the rest of the world. Personally I belive the leadership has learned its lessons from what has happened in countries like Lebanon and Jordan. In any event, I believe that the conditions will never be right if we apply the US and Israeli criteria for Palestinian access to the UN. Which is of course the whole point.

edit: I am not trying to write essays, I'm just posting on a message board.

 

I sometimes wonder how different this discussion would be if it took place in a bar. I'd probably just be nodding gravely whenever Hoth says something. And checking the place out when 44 speaks up.

I don't feel comfortable discussing this stuff in bars, though...

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't appreciate your dismissiveness, nor do I like having words put in my mouth.

I have never said I have no empathy for the besieged, I have said-high, loud, and repeatedly on this board-that I have a problem with the world turning a blind eye to Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians whilst condemning all other such actions when they occur anywhere else on the planet. There is something wrong with that. If you are unable to appreciate this, then you are the one who's reasoning is backwards, not mine.

I think the treatment of the Palestinians is disgusting. I think the fact that the US has failed to produce a president since Jimmy Carter willing to call out the Israeli leadership on their behavior is highly distressing as well, but I also feel that Israel has been treated as a pariah by the international community since it's creation. If there ever was a textbook case of "buyer's remorse" on the international state, it was Israel. Has the UN ever exerted the same amount of effort to condemn rocket attacks against civilians by Hamas as it has against Israel? Of course not, because like the "inconvenience" you so glibly accuse me and my countrymen of also equally applies to the UN when it comes to calling out bombings of Israeli civilians by the Palestinians.

I'm not blaming the besieged for resulting in cutting off funding for UNESCO (that is a matter of US law, and until the law is changed by Congress, I fully support the cutting off of those funds), but I do hold them fulling responsible for electing Hamas knowing full well that a vote for them as a government was a vote for the eradication of Israel. Hamas has yet to recognize Israel's existence, let alone condemn violence against them. If the international community wants to focus solely on Hamas's charitable activities on the ground, so be it. They have that right. But it won't solve the problem, and the situation will only continue to get worse.

I'm all for Palestinian legitimacy, but the way forward is to win hearts and minds, not hijack them through technicalities. What they are doing is a publicity stunt designed to fool people like you who are incapable of looking at the conflict through the eyes of both parties into garnering a disproportionate amount of sympathy towards their plight to the extent that they are hoping Israel will be forced into a solution that they will not have agreed to otherwise. Reading your posts since this action was announced, I would say that they are succeeding. Unfortunately for them, it won't happen, and in the end, will be counterproductive.

Not to cross discussion threads, but their actions are no different than the "personhood" amendment up for a vote tomorrow in Mississippi, which would ban all abortion and most forms of hormonal birth control, as well as IUD's. The law has no chance of surviving a federal court challenge, and is so extreme it would likely not pass muster at the rightward-tilting US Supreme Court, but it's all the rage down there Why? Because it's supporters are trying to make a point; the problem is, the way they are going about it is considered so extreme that it is likely to ultimately have the opposite effect. The Catholic Church and the National Right to Life organization both are against it, and they are two

 

I wasn't aware my foot was in my mouth. Sloppy. I'll try to pay more attention to my extremities.

Oh! The rockets!
Such a... shall we say, "convenient" card to deal.
The Palestinians live under occupation and oppression - yeah but the rockets!
Palestinian casualties outnumber Israeli casualties seven to one - yeah, so what they need to do is stop firing rockets.
25,000 Palestinian homes destroyed in the past fifty years, no Israeli homes - because, you know, the rockets.
Always the rockets.
Well, let's talk about the rockets.

Has the UN ever exerted the same amount of effort to condemn rocket attacks against civilians by Hamas as it has against Israel?
The secretary-general has repeatedly condemned the rocket attacks; even this week. If you're talking about resolutions, well, I guess there is no country to direct it to, is there?
But wait.
rocket attacks against civilians by Hamas
How are you sure it's Hamas? Hamas says it's the Popular Front. I don't know if I should buy that, but I'm not sure I should buy your story either. Half of Hamas likes what the Popular Front does, the other half may want to go another route - but as long as Israel isn't backing down, the hardliners' grip on Hamas isn't loosening either. And you can bet that the current Israeli government will try anything right now to discredit those who are geared towards a peaceful resolution. Having the hardliners in charge of Hamas would suit Netanyahu just fine.

If a group of Palestinian civilians lay down in front of bulldozers in a settlement and they got run over, Israel would be out of the territories in a week. Even the US wouldn't be able to support them on that one. Instead, we get bombings.

Tell that to Rachel Corrie.

Of course they'd be smart not to fire rockets, of course they'd get a better reputation, of course rockets are bad, m'kay. None of that does anything to relieve the US and the EU (your government and mine) of their duty to stop favoring this Israeli government. First. Because what Netanyahu is doing - the occupation, the land grab, the discrimination, and the occasional all-out war - is much, much worse than the rockets, and it's something our nations have more control over.

 

I'm sure if the Palestinians were any other nation fighting an oppressive regime that America would wholeheartedly support them. As it is, The End Times? are near so we must support Israel no matter what. Or at least some conservatives in the US feel that way. Most of the time it's because support for Israel has been so ingrained in our culture that cutting it off means change and people hate change. Don't blame Mr44 too harshly, he does spout off the abuser's credo, "I'll stop hitting you if you stop fighting back," but I think he means well. Or at least I hope he does.

Trouble is that while the Palestinians may not be perfect I do think they have a legitimate right to be pissed. After all, what happened in the formation of Israel is the same thing that happened to American Indians. Land was taken and redistributed, when they fought back and lost they lost their land, and now the original invaders are the majority so now it's those filthy Palestinians who think they have any claim to the land that must change because, hey, **** you. Come to think of it, put that way no wonder the US supports Israel on a cultural level. I'm sure eventually the Palestinians will have their land reserved for them on a reservation. You know, for their own good.

They probably won't be called reservations. Knowing Israel they'll probably label those slums 'Super Happy Fun Land' or something. And then the ones who are left can wither in abject poverty (legally done this time), people who once supported them will cry 'SUCCESS!', and then we can admire how nice their culture was and honor it by having real authentic Palestinian villages where tourists can go and admire the 'brave culture' that 'valiantly fought for freedom' and maybe gamble at the Hamas Casino. Or at least that's how I foresee this ending. Because when you get right down to it you can't really have justice for this sort of brutality. Only a series of long defeats and a sham of a victory.

 

Watto, you're entire post is exactly the same as mine.

Instead of "the rockets!", it is "the occupation!"

Two sides of the same coin. And yes, I found your earlier post offensive, which is why I stated what I did. I generally don't get my back up around here, but this time, you managed to stoke me a little bit.

I'm actually impressed .

Look, the point is, the way the conflict is being approached by all sides is just completely wrong. This is further compounded by the fact that all the players with skin in the game have been disincentivized from getting to the real roots of the problem by a sophisticated form of international, multilayered cronyism. Until that changes, nothing else will.

FID really did make a good point with the End Times and biblical voters in America. It's simply a reality in the US.

Peace,

V-03

 

Mr44, I agree 100% that the Palestinians will never achieve an equitable peace resolution by resorting to terrorism. Blowing up buses in 'retribution' to Israeli violence clearly perpetuates a cycle of violence which the Palestinians simply cannot win, plus it does them no favours on the international stage. Israel can at least dress up its acts of terrorism as 'strenuous military defence'. Not so the Palestinians. The Palestinians (and I refer to both PA and Hamas) are in need of serious PR rehabilitation (thanks in part to the Arafat era) -which is why I am so opposed to Hamas as I believe they are a lost cause (see posts above).

This is exactly it. No matter how wrong, Israel can afford to screw around. The Palestinians cannot. So the Palestinians have to be on their best behavior until they achieve a degree of legitimacy. After that, then they can start acting up like every other nation/state in the world does. But they can't afford to put the cart before the horse, which is why there has been a stalemate for 60+ years. This is what complicates the issue. Because there are those who are locked so much into the issue of "sides," that they look at criticism of the Palestinians as support for Israel. This isn't automatically the case.

However, I think our area of disagreement revolves more around the recent moves by Abbas for Palestinian membership in the UN and its related bodies such as UNESCO. In my view, this is exacly the kind of move which the US and Israel should be supporting as it binds the Palestinian Authority to the various constitutions and charters which underpin these institutions. By giving the Palestininans a library card, it is implicit that they must adhere to the rules of the library, which means no loud talking and a prompt return of borrowed books. Book burning will result in the library card being ripped up for all time.

Sure, but fundamentally, it comes down to the cart and horse issue. I agree with V 100% over the dangers the Palestinians are currently playing in this area. You're right, by getting a library card, the Palestinians are going to have to abide by the rules of the library. But right now, there are no controls in place to make sure this happens. Abbas is trying, but he doesn't even have a basic control over the militant factions within the Palestinian leadership. Without installing internal controls first, the worst thing the Palestinians can do is have a UNESCO scandal. Because again, we agree 100%. If even a small percentage of UNESCO money ends up remotely tied to violence, the Palestinians are going to have their library card ripped up, and ripped up hard because it will simply reinforce their image. It's probably wouldn't even be Abbas's fault, but the institutional issue is that Fatah hasn't even shed its own extreme corruption image. After Hamas replaced Abbas within the leadership, Abbas has zero control over Hamas, and they would like nothing better than smack Abbas down before moving on to Israel. As a result, it's an uphill battle from the start, and I'd say the chances here aren't good for the Palestinians because things were rushed.

What Abbas should be doing is making sure Fatah is truly reformed first. Then, project his basic reforms outward so they take hold with the PNA. After this occurs, then work with the influential members of the UN to show that they can be good shareholders and join something like UNESCO with an eye on larger goals.

 

Abbas can't do shinola. His role is all but played out. Israel is withholding the tax money; officials aren't getting paid, and soon they'll have had enough.

I don't think that means what he did at the UN has been wrong, though; I think it means other countries are reacting wrongly.

---

V03, I disagree. It's not the same. It's not even a contest. And you know this, you know the numbers.
Twenty five thousand homes.
Against zero houses.
Why do you insist it's the same?

 

I think Bush Snr had it in him to be another Jimmy Carter but he lost office before he could develop anything fruitful. Even Dubya might have had potential but for 9/11.

The international community treats Israel as a pariah because it acts like a rogue state. As a sovereign state and a signatory to the various conventions and instruments of international humanitarian law there is a legitimate expection from the international community that Israel, as a member state of the UN, will comply with those obligations. The UN has jurisdiction to pass resolutions in relation to Israel because Israel is a member of the club. All the UN can do in relation to Hamas is publicly 'condemn' violent actions and 'boycott' Hamas because Hamas (and the PA and the entire Palestinian population) are not members of the club.

That is all the UN is Vaderize03 - it's a club with certain stated aspirations. The members agree to be bound by the rules of the club or else face sanctions or even expulsion. International law is a voluntary concept. You voluntarily agree to be bound by it. You should re-visit the UN Charter and its history and objectives. There is absolutely no reason why the Palestinians should not be admitted as members, in fact, it should be strongly encouraged.

A vote for Hamas was a vote for armed resistance against a brutal Israeli occupation in Gaza. The Israeli policy of collective punishment brought about Hamas. You would have voted for Hamas as well if you lived in Gaza under those conditions. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians accept that Israel is here to stay. They are not stupid. It is not the eradication of Israel which brought about the rise of Hamas but the need for self defence.

This is not true. Hamas has recognized Israel's existence on numerous occasions- I have posted links in this thread. The Hamas 'charter' does not recognize Israel and calls for its destruction that is true, but in terms of practical politics, Hamas has actually been at the negotiation table with Israel more frequently than the PA. Hamas is a resistance movement, so it's hardly surprising that they don't condemn violence against Israel. Come on, you're a reasonable guy .

 

Last Thursday, at the G20

Sarkozy: Netanyahu is a liar. I can't stand the guy.
Obama: You?re fed up with him, but I have to deal with him every day!

 

Priceless!

 

This came up in the news over the weekend:

This is thoroughly appalling. I think it makes clear the real nature of the US-Israeli relationship, and it's dysfunctional to say the least. Israel apparently does whatever it feels like doing, whether it damages US interests or not, knowing full well Congress will never take any serious action against them.

 

They have become a kid in a candy store without an adult present.

They just keep eating until they throw up.

However, if we elect a GOP President, expect whatever sanity Obama has brought back to the relationship to be tossed straight back out the window.

On another note, Israel was apparently the subject of a hacker attack today that shut down, amongst other things, computers at airports (I think; I don't have all the details here).

Peace,

V-03

 

I don't think we'll be electing a Republican candidate this cycle, but that's for another thread.

On an off-tangent, what the GOP honestly needs is about sixteen years out of the White House-roughly the same amount of time they were out of the White House between FDR and Truman, who was followed by one of the best Republican presidents we've ever had. That could allow the "traditionalist" GOP (which I'd define as basically Huntsman, and McCain when he feels like it, at this point) to regain the leadership of their party and hopefully get it back into being a viable alternative.

The FP article the IntelNews article talks about mentions that a lot of senior Administration personnel are getting pretty fed up with Israel, which isn't any surprise. We really don't get much of anything with our relationship with Israel and the way the Israelis push the limits habitually definitely doesn't fly with the quid-pro-quo oriented Obama Administration.

 

Vader, Mr 44, let me ask you guys a question or two that I think will help you understand where LOH is coming from:

What should the Jews have done differently in the 1940's to avoid the holocaust?

Before you flame me out for the comparison, I think the question helps you come closer to a better understanding of each other. Mr 44, I'm in total agreement with you. Israel has the upper hand. There are factions in Isreal that want to pursue a policy of "greater Isreal" with no Palestine at all. I'm sure there are plenty of Palestineans who feel the same way about Isreal. Problem is, brutalized or not, Palestinean violence is ammunition for Isreali hard liners, and they have bigger, US made guns.

A Ghandi-esq non-violence movement incorporating MLK style civil disobedience seems like Palestine's best bet.

 

I would say Israel lost their right to invoke Godwin's law when they started selling weapons to South Africa. These days, Israel actually has eugenic laws aimed at reducing the Palestinian population.

In that kind of situation, I really can't feel sorry for them.