Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

Please, if you quote me, quote in context.

I'm not stupid, I know it's impossible for Lit. Just saying that it would be nice to have Lit a bit more balanced. Few books I ever read were bad only and none of them was SW....

JediBen - Yeah, it's a bit unfortunate for me that my intertests are in things mostly dissed in Lit.
Order 66 and Mando discussions are really, in my experience, best observed in fully cloaked lurk mode. You keep your head down at all times.
This is one of the things that makes me waana throttle peole. Why should I get problems just for liking something that's SW? If they don't like friggin mandos or Traviss, fine, I'm don't like NJO, but I'm not clogging up discussion threads telling everybody over and over again how it sucks.
Maybe putting up a pro and a contra thread for discussion would help. Me and Ron in the pro thread, everybody else in contra.

Gabri_Jade - I had the best discussions about 'hot' topics in profic in FanFic. But the whole feel of it was different. There was a discussion about clones in the Over 30 Thread, i think that was downright wonderful. And not because everybody agreed, people just seemed to be more polite, less rabid about their (correct) opinions and maybe just phrased things nicer.
Maybe it's easier when you write yourself to be careful with things other people wrote even if you hate them. *shrug*

Dingo - Wow, what you said. Mostly.
The problem with casual fans (that'd be me) and continuity fans is that the focus on a book is just too different. And right now, i have the feeling there's much more people focussed on continuity in Lit, which leaves litte place for me. Face it, they have little interest in plots, character development and such. But if they 'own' the thread,w here do I go? My best friend promised to read them books, but she's busy with writng a dissertation... *sigh*


I can't remember who suggested having discussion threads hosted by users. I like the idea.

 

Erm. What, exactly, do you think continuity is?

 

ML,

* I don't disagree.

This is one of the things that makes me waana throttle peole. Why should I get problems just for liking something that's SW?

* Quite, but at the same time sometimes it's easier to avoid a hotspot. Unlike some, such as Quest who were Mod-obliged to, I steered clear of the 3 Million affair despite being a Clone Wars fan because it sounded very similar to the Vector Prime Wars - and having done it once, I wasn't inclined to again - but was a fan of the Clone Wars. Sometimes it comes down to picking the discussions and if see people you consider trouble, well the Rincewind solution can be effective - leg it the hell out of there!

If they don't like friggin mandos or Traviss, fine, I'm don't like NJO, but I'm not clogging * up discussion threads telling everybody over and over again how it sucks.

* Yes, people do seem to have acquired a habit whereby they think they need to either say something 10 times to be noticed or that their opinion's validity is measured by those who subscribe to it ie. how many people they've demolished! BUT in regard to the Mano issue it really isn't as simple as liking Mandos or loathing them but a specific take on them that is overriding, so replacing a prior version - which has a lot of fans. In essence, the Order 66 thread was a near-on Perfect Storm as described by Keralys - it mixed Traviss, Mandos and Canon!

Maybe putting up a pro and a contra thread for discussion would help. Me and Ron in the pro thread, everybody else in contra.

* Personally, I have no problem with such 'platform' threads, I suspect my Mod colleagues would disagree as they want to allow free-flowing debate within threads rather than have opposing ones.

* I mentioned the VP Wars earlier, one story of them has some relevance here. I'd been in Lit for about 3 months and had acquired a pleasant, easy-going reputation due to posting style and conduct. One of the benefits of that came clear when said conflagration exploded across the forums and I found myself getting jumped by all manner of people. Then a few other posters spoke in defnce, which helped me in feeling confident enough to keep posting. As the debate rumbled on, across various battleground..er..sorry, threads...it became clear very fast there was a whacking great schism forming.

* Then as now, there was the usual arsenal of tactics and one-liners: If you don't like X then you ain't a SW fan; your view is invalid due to XYZ; and a host of others doubtless familar to most others here. Strangely enough, that arsenal never seems to change, it just gets wheeled out for the next punch-up.

 

Dingo - just want to say that overall I agree with you. I wanted highlight a couple of the points I particularly agreed with and indicate our active desire to respond to the stuff you brought up. Thanks for highlighting all of that.

Yep, dead on. We do need to treat continuity just like any other topic, in my opinion: no special privileges, and no particular handicaps added to it. Moderate it like we would character discussion, plot discussion, etc.

Again, I think this is right on the head of the nail. The problem, as Becca highlighted and you elaborated on here, is actually the intractability, stubbornness, and arrogance of our posters. Some of that is unlikely to change, for the simple reason that those are the folks in Lit. On the other hand, we can moderate much more strictly and effectively tell people they need to find better ways to communicate, and they need to stop derailing discussions with tangents about how they're right and everyone else is wrong. Again, an area we as mods need to work hard to improve on - and I'm trying to do so now.

One huge help to us in this is best exemplified by something that just happened. I had a busy afternoon yesterday, and this morning at 7 board time is the first time I logged in for about 18 hours. I got a PM from a user bringing up a problem thread, dropped in, and put a firm warning, which I will follow up with edits and - if necessary, though I hope it shan't be - even bans, on exactly the sort of random drive-by posting, and just bad form posting.

A couple other points I really want to address: MsLanna - I am sorry that you've had the experience you did in Lit of late. A couple points I want to make here. First, you're a huge Mando fan, and that's frankly our area of biggest weakness. That's something we're working on. That said, it's extremely unfair for you to automatically assume that everything in Lit is the worst poss

 

Master_Keralys We can look and see if it needs another mod.

I just thought that you guys seem to work pretty hard already, and pretty much all the new things that you have planned to do involves the Mods and extra time and work for them. Since you *do* have real lives, it just seems logical to add one more person to help out.

And I don't really care one way or the other if the new mod is a male or female. I just had the crazy thought before I went to bed last night that having a female mod in Lit might make for a nice change. For one thing, it might encourage more females to give Lit a try. But it was just a wild idea. I agree that the primary considerations in choosing a new mod should be that the person is the best one for the job; someone highly respected; with good posting habits; and who agrees with the direction you're planning to go.

 

Trip - To me contiuity is about getting the fats straight.
Since to me it's all fiction I shrug it off except if it's major. I'd like to see the discussions back in the times Fett was suddenly alive again. Must have been a major bash-fest. But does it affect me? Not rteally, so he's back. *shrug*

JediBen - My interests seem to be in the hotspots mostly. Canon goes boom and fanon follows suit. *sigh* And i am too lazy for the Rincewind solution. Also, if I ahd a chest like that...

Keralys - I never said all of Lit was like that.
It's obviously my problem that I am not interested in anything else that is discussed there right now and thus can't say anything about Lit that might be working. How should I know? I'm not there.
I'm in the places that don't work for me. And this I do for fun. I see no reason to keep trying and disccuss with people that drive me up the walls. That is too exhausting and not worth m poor nevers. I'm easy to shake. *shrug*

you didn't actually try to start those discussions

Maybe I'm just used to more integrative enviroments. *shrug* When people don't pick up on what I posted, I assume they're not interested. I watched Rob's valiant attmepts to get something else discussed and Kudos to him for what he achieved. But that's not me. Problem not, I go other places.
Be back with the next Commando book.

 

Heh, that's a fairly accurate summary - nice to see you got the Discworld ref too, I have to agree the Lugguge would come in handy at times!

 

Ah.

Well, it's far more than just that.

Look, continuity is no more and no less than consistency in the universe-- it's remembering the date of event X or the location of planet Y, yes, but it's also characterization and internal plot logic and consistency and so on. A lot of people lately seem to think continuity relates only to dry, boring facts and numbers that only the most obsessive of fans would pore over, but this is simply not true. When we discuss characterization, we're discussing continuity-- why did character X react in such a way, for example, when in every previous instance he's reacted to similar situations in an opposite fashion?

Frankly, unless you're reading something surrealist, continuity is inextricably tied to every aspect of every story, so contrasting continuity with characterization and plot is just silly, particularly in a shared universe. Now, I do understand if you want to discuss things solely in the context of a single work, but to expect others to do the same when said work exists as a single part of a shared universe is somewhat self-centered.

Complaining about Fett escaping the Sarlacc wouldn't be a continuity-related complaint, though-- his return didn't contradict anything and was explained in the very story he showed up in.

 

Both times?
*lol*
As I said, I don't care much. It's an attitude that seems to get me into trouble in Lit, but I really don't care. If Luke's not suddenly a Sith or Solo takes the place of Karrde of Jabba - what's the harm?

So, so what?
I'm a still an SW fan
I got my EU books
and I don't need continuity
and guess what?
I'm having more fun
and now that it's gone
I'm gonna -

- shut up. Sorry.

For somebody not interested in continuity it'll never be an exciting subject.
Also, as fanficcer, a different reaction than usual to a situation would kindle the question 'why' in me. I'd go off writing viggies if it was important and make it fit instead of wondering why it doesn't.

Okay, Fett was a bad idea. What about the sudden resurrection of the Mandos? Complete retcon of Boba's background?
Of course, you can argue for ages about things like that, but once LFL (or whoever) dropped the shoe there's no going back. Say ouch and move along. That's my approach. It's just incompatible with (threads of itnerest to me) Lit. So, so what?

 

The problem with changing continuity for some, myself among them, is that one the things that was emphasised with the SW EU was that stories would inter-link and be part of one story, that it wasn't like Trek, which at the time was far looser (Trek sharpened up its act in '99/00 and has a quite coherent continuity in its books). This saw links forged between Bantam's books and DHC comics in a way that hasn't really been replicated yet by DR-DHC, though that may change in the future.

Now, if LFL break with this, well it's an open and shut case of foul play, isn't it? You were told one thing and, some years and quite a bit of cash spent later, it all gets changed. That 9 book series you bought, well it's one story amongst several now, OK? That smart piece of characterisation in book X you liked? Gone too. Had you known that at the time you bought it, you might have waited until it was in PB, got it from the library or not bought it at all.

An example of this can be seen in Clone Wars: I loved how in 2002-05, between the release of AOTC and ROTS the story of the wars got told. Now? Well, actually it's all changed and this now happened then and there's new comics and books....I don't care about them: Not just because of the timeline changes but this is the second time the ground is being covered, this time the end point is known and what's to prevent the same trick being pulled again later? It doesn't help that the story done to cover the AOTC-ROTS was easily one of the best pieces of the EU either.

I'd say fanfic is looser both because it can afford to be but also because it has to be - how are people to feel free to spin whatever stories they think up, if someone comes along and says: No, you can't do that due to XYZ? I don't think the two realms are really comparable due to these differences.

What is allowable within continuity? I'd say expansion can be good if done well. One of the smartest examples of expansion is KOTOR 33, this issue saw the background to the character of Haazen and it delved into the Sith War, a story previously told in Tales of the Jedi 12 years ago. It went and greatly expanded the scope and nature of that war with a single battlefield scene, but didn't do anything to affect the earlier story. Both can be fot together quite easily: TOTJ The Sith War covers the start and end plus major events of the conflict, KOTOR #33 looks more into the details of it.

 

Well, you do obviously care, you just have a different point at which you draw the line. And that's not any better or worse, but can you understand why people who are interested in a particular character or storyline might be concerned if an author wrote the equivalent of Luke being a Sith for them?

I think you've created a bit of a stereotype in your head. People who care about continuity aren't having less fun, they're just taking their enjoyment in something different than you (though as Trip points out, continuity-minded people care just as much about characterization, etc., since those are just facets of continuity). I mean, I'm sure you don't have any fun with articles like those of Abel Peña, or get enjoyment out of how Shadowspawn and Blackhole are being connected in Shadows of Mindor, so does that mean that you're having objectively less fun overall than continuity-minded people who love that stuff? No, that would be a ridiculous claim. You just like different things.

 

Please don't take those lyrics too serious, Hydronium.

 

I can totally see where your coming from Trip, consistency in the universe is a nice thing. I don't see how it ties to characterization and plot though. I mean Luke's characterization has been all over the map for the history of the EU. Sometimes he's the noble hero, sometimes he's going dark, sometimes he's embracing no difference between light and dark, sometimes he's running around the galaxy, sleeping with illusion generating women, ignoring the concerns of his family

I like that the galaxy will always be brought into a single timeline but I can see where MsLanna is coming from as well. There has been limited consistency throughout the history of the Star Wars EU. Take Splinter of the Minds Eye, to Marvel, to the Thrawn Trilogy, to the Prequels, to CWA. It seems to me that both the creator and the artists have never been tied to writing within "one" continuity though some artists have been very good about it. Stuff that doesn't fit into the main continuity is either added or discarded along the way.

I think the issue for me is more the attitude or claims that author X has completely destroyed Star Wars continuity, or has no respect for Star Wars continuity. The existence of Star Wars continuity seems subjective at best, having been adjusted so many times already. LFL stamps approved on seemingly every author request.

Should someone be able to discuss continuity at length, Yes. Should somone be able to discuss the contents of the novel at length, yes. There should be room for both types of discussion, perhaps with one discussion type not getting derailed by the other.

 

Rob - What you said.
For somebody who likes to write I'm horrible with words.

 

And now that everybody could see how easily any discussion can turn into one about conituity once the word appeared, back to improving Lit.

Maybe we could have more profic books that interest me and I'd go there more often.

 

Question: Are we considering the idea that if you don't like something, not to repeatedly bring said disliked points up? And if so, is that a fair approach or freedom inhibiting?

Listening to a Dark Samus track, so it got me in a thinking mood....

 

If the other one hadn't been closed, I'd suggest a Basher's Sanctuary for such points. People just like to bring up points they dislike.

 

Freedom inhibiting is eliminating the opportunity to bring it up when it's relevant. I'd say that when a poster takes almost every opportunity to turn any and every conversation into an opportunity to voice their dislike, it's a fair approach to eliminate it in a thread. It's just moderation of a subject and takes place all the time in most productive, fair and intelligent discussions.

For example, and I'm sure you remember this Ex... the "Mara wars". When dp4m and the other Lit mods at the time decided that it was time to stop the hijacking of almost every thread by two or three well-known "Mara haters" (where often the vehemence would then turn to the author Zahn, if the discussion couldn't be made relevant for Mara vitriol) by addressing the posters themselves and taking care of that, the community calmed down and was a great place to post until the next situation that caused fan ire, probably the Clone numbers.

 

Lit doesn't need much improving, but you and Rob's misconceptions about continuity can obviously use correction. So; here we are.

Like roo says, bringing one's dislikes up when it's relevant shouldn't be prevented. When it's not-- or when said dislikes have been shown to be completely unfounded-- well, I honestly don't think it should be prevented either, except for in extreme cases.

For example, if someone were to-- just for example-- complain regularly about an incident that they misread, even when constantly corrected (including by author himself), then it's best to just allow the poster's credibility to speak for itself.

 

But not at the expense of everyone else who does know what they're talking about, and their ability to keep discussing on topic. I've seen threads be derailed and authors/artists themselves keep trying to redirect and correct the perception of those who haven't read the material and it just not work. That's when it's time to step in and politely suggest to said poster to read the material before coming back, and really mean it.

 

Oops.
In that case ignore all I said or have it deleted. I posted here under the assumption that this was a thread about trying to improve something in Lit.
You've never seen me. This is not the post you are looking for.
*waves hand*

 

Yeah, that's what I mean by extreme cases.

 

I haven't said it yet, buy I'd like to thank Master_Keralys for the time and concern he's taken on making The Literature board work for everybody. His commitment will benefit the forum in more ways than one. I'd love nothing more than to see EU authors and artists join or rejoin in discussions.
thanks man!

 

Yeah, I remember the "Mara Haters," Rhonda.

I got fed up of their puerile rants and decided to get to know one through some subtle conversational probes. They're mostly middle agers who remember the shock of Vader's parental revelation, the hassle of bus stop gossip in an era when mobiles were bricks and the net was someone's conceptual imagination. Carrie was a serious role model for them, and they abided no rivals. I concluded they were "cases" --- I won't prefix it with mental --- just poeple who have a few screws missing and who genuinely, and I mean genuinely, hate Mara.

By narrowing the point when they started hating that ficticious personage and feeding back onto their issues, I caught them out. The thing was, they're happy to abuse her, but when caught out on their mistakes, they never discuss it back, just go all quiet and disappear.

And they often only appeared to post hate material on Mara, seldom for anything else. That's sad.