Lit discussion (continued from JC Suggestions thread)

MsLanna, there's room for disagreement, here. Trip is just as entitled to like Lit the way it is as you are to dislike it the way it is.

mrsvos - you're welcome, and that should be extended to the other mods, as well. I may have taken point on this, but all of us are working on it.

Rhonda - yeah, you're right. And I think we're getting there, slowly but surely. Can't be everywhere at once, alas, especially when one has to edit the tar out of a given thread, but we're getting there.

 

Okay, fist of all apologies to Trip. It's just that your post is right here and such a nice example. I know you're in Lit a lot and I am not. I have you down as 'okay guy', though you seem to work hard to get on the 'stuck-up continuity jock' list.

Keralys. I didn't quote all of Trip's sentence because I didn't want to go there. I hate discussions like this, but here you go:

It is the subordinate clause that is showing the kind of attitude I have a personal problem with. Why the Force should my (or anybody's) views need 'correction'?
The fact that nobody seems to find it anything with this either makes me a wimp, or shows that this is accepted behaviour, in which case I'd rather stay away.
I don't want to change (note choice of word) anybody's views (note choice of word).

I just realised that the conclusion 'So here we are' also implies that this discussion takes place because some people in Lit seem to have the 'wrong' opinion about continuity.
Maybe it is just that everything is fine there except the occasional continuity thing?

 

The fact that this thread is on page four in Comms and more than just one or two people are in the discussion means that there's at least a few people who think that Lit needs improving. I think you and Trip might be at the extreme ends of the argument on either side, but both of you are entitled to your opinions, just like anyone who takes the time to come discuss Lit, instead of just going away. IMO, what the Lit mods should strive for is a little more in the way of the middle, like I've seen repeatedly in this thread -- more moderation of the extremes on any given issue.

I'll give an example: There's a thread on page 1 in Lit right now with VERY clear directions right off the bat from a mod in color on what the discussion should look like, what's off limits and what will happen. Yet there are more edits than I can count on two hands from repeat offenders and as far as I know, no one's been banned yet. There's a couple of warnings, then a couple more, then "I'm not kidding, guys!". To me, this is a clear cut case of a need to really get the message across. I'm not directing criticism at the mods in there editing, I'm just saying maybe it's a case of being overly cautious in a controversial situation. An old friend (and very respected and experienced mod) once told me that sometimes, locking a thread isn't the right thing to do, but getting rid of the problem(s) in the thread is -- teaching folks that you won't limit discussion, but you will enforce the rules.

 

Rhonda, there is a ban in there, thanks, and frankly, you have no way of knowing anything other than that there are edits, so please don't assume. Pretty much all the edits in there were done in the span of less than an hour this morning. If you'd actually been interested in looking at what I was doing, instead of just in pointing fingers again, you'd have seen as much and realized that as soon as I saw a problem, I dealt with it, and quite harshly. It's finals week for me, and I haven't had time to sit in there and watch that thread like a hawk, and when I did stop in and saw it was a mess, I cleaned it up, including making a relevant ban. I'm not going to ban everyone who's trying to play by the rules but responding to a troublemaker or three. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to get back to studying for a quantum mechanics exam.

Edit 1 - clarity.

Edit 2 - sorry, I think that's coming off a bit snarky, and I don't mean it to. I'm just a bit tired of being jumped on here, when I'm working pretty hard on stuff for Lit, and that in the middle of dealing with a lot of things going on in real life which are frankly much more important. So, I'm sorry for the slightly harsh tone in both this post and the one below. I'm not sure how to rewrite them so they're less snarky, so I'll leave them as they are for now, with this apology to stand in place of a rewrite at this point.

 

MsLanna - I understand what you're saying about Trip. Frankly, I'd like to edit both of you for a couple things in the last back-and-forth, but this isn't my board, and I'm waiting to hear back from an admin about it.

You argue that you don't want to change anyone's views. That being so, why are you here trying to persuade us to make Lit a place that looks like you want it to look, with your outlook on continuity being enforced? You are trying to chane people's views. That's okay; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. How you do it is another issue entirely, and frankly, both you and Trip have been a bit sarcastic and unhelpful in the way you've presented your views.

I think Trip is frustrated that you think his view of continuity is the problem in Lit, while you're frustrated because you think "continuity" discussions take up too much time in Lit and a lot of people in Lit disagree. That's fine, both ways. But you need to recognize that there's room for a valid difference of opinion here. And Trip isn't a Lit mod. If I've said you're welcome to the discussion, then you're welcome to the discussion, and you can't dismiss that by quoting someone else.

 

I'm sorry if I offended you, so I'll try not to get defensive in response to you getting that way. If you'd read MY post, you'd see that I said I wasn't directing criticism at any of you, and I have read the whole thread, so I'm not assuming anything -- it's my opinion on what I saw and I know how things work behind the scenes, I've been there.

I'll stop right here with this line of discussion as it won't go anywhere that it needs to for anyone, especially if you and I start going back and forth, or if people start piling on either way. Needless to say, it wasn't meant to "point fingers" (yeah, that was snarky on your part), but give an example...something I thought you guys had asked for. Sorry for assuming on that one. And don't apologize for real life, everyone has them, you gotta do what you gotta do and you've given a lot of time to this already. Lit isn't burning to the ground for pity's sake, and I don't think anyone here has said it is. We've all acknowledged that we see a difference already, and you're a big part of that. I don't know if you guys are taking this as what it is, just concerned feedback (on my part, anyway) and suggestions that were solicited. As someone who's been there and done that, I understand how something like this in Comms can feel like an attack on your modding or your team or "being jumped on", but for my part anyway (and that's all I can speak for) it's not and most people that have ever been in MS have felt the way you feel, or even anyone that's participated in a heavy debate -- this is Comms. Hopefully, no one has come in here to just to hurt you guys' feelings.

 

Sorry, I wasn't trying to get defensive. I came in here and found your post right after spending an hour dealing with all of the above, and so was already grumpy. *sigh* For right now, I can tell I'm still a bit grumpy, so I'm sorry. I probably should have just waited to respond. Just one of those days, you know? Thanks for the feedback; I do appreciate it.

 

Not a great week for me, either. So, I was probably more harsh than I intended to be and way too preachy. Anyway, keep up the good work.

 

Tut,tut, you know what this means, don't you Ker? You're getting old!

 

Not that! Anything but that!

 

If you ever get grumpy, buy a 375ml Spring Valley Orange Juice bottle. They have little cap fact. Mine helpfully informed me today. . . ah, turtles can breathe through their butt.

Well now. Tell me that can't improve anyone's mood.

 

I'll put my foot in again, even though it porbably won't help any.

Keralys
MsLanna - I understand what you're saying about Trip. Frankly, I'd like to edit both of you for a couple things in the last back-and-forth, but this isn't my board, and I'm waiting to hear back from an admin about it.


I just had that stupid song stuck in my head for the whole day.
And I was being honest when I said all my defences go up automatically where Lit is concerened. I just feel like was unter attack, and it is diffcult to post nicely from behind these walls.


You argue that you don't want to change anyone's views. That being so, why are you here trying to persuade us to make Lit a place that looks like you want it to look, with your outlook on continuity being enforced?

I was told about this thread and thought, well, if there's a discussion about it, might as well chime in. Wouldn't have gotten the idea to suggest any changes if it hadn't be there already. You can't open a thread to discuss what to change in Lit and then tell people they try to change Lit.


both you and Trip have been a bit sarcastic and unhelpful in the way you've presented your views.

I did mean what I said in my last post, every word and I was not being sarcastic. Maybe I should have added that I was not trying to imply that Trip meant it the way I read it.
And the '(note choice of words)' was not meant to be offensive, either. I was just trying to show that the choice of words alone can do a lot. There is a difference betzween 'your misconceptions need correction' and 'your views need to be changed'. Though neither is something I'd want to encounter.


I think Trip is frustrated that you think his view of continuity is the problem in Lit,

Um, no. I think the problem is that the discussion of continuity in Lit sometimes rolls over everything and there is no place to switch to. I know that this might be just a problem of threads I'd like to frequent and might not occur often enough to warrant any changes. My bad luck then.


But you need to recognize that there's room for a valid difference of opinion here.

What makes you think I don't?
Maybe it's a viewpoint-error? I think that what Lit is right now is accepted consens and what is in here is the 'different' opinion. So I don't bother with what is established already, assuming everybody knows.
Of course, you can leave Lit as it is. The board is active and has many happy users.


If I've said you're welcome to the discussion, then you're welcome to the discussion, and you can't dismiss that by quoting someone else.

As I said, I'm a wimp. I don't feel welcome.

 

Okay, I'm just going to butt in here and ask a really, really stupid question:

Is this thread supposed to be for discussing Lit in general or for improving (or not) the Lit board?

The last few posts that I've read -- well, they're frustrating.
It seems to me that the only thing being discussed is continuity and that's it. But Lit should have more to offer than just continuity or am I seeing something wrong? All this time, I was under the impression the Lit board was there to discuss books.
The books contents. The story itself.

I hardly ever post on the Lit boards even though I would like to.
But, as MsLanna said, I too do not feel welcomed.

The Lit board is huge in comparison to other areas on the boards. Obviously, everyone has a different opinion and every opinion should be respected. The few times I have posted on the Lit boards, I've noticed that it's not always the case.
I don't much have a preference in books. There are certain characters I really like and then, of course, others I don't care too much for. I just have the feeling that some users take things a bit too seriously on the Lit boards.

Just my two cents.
Please don't bash my head in because of it.

 

Why don't you feel welcome? What are you afraid to post?

 

Excellence - We're both WNU and FanFic residents. Somehow the whole atmosphere seems more friendly in those places. Lit is a very serious place (mostly) and different opinions don't seem welcome sometimes. Might be just the hot-spot threads (I know I don't frequent many others) where the tone gets rough.
I'm here for fun, and once a thread drives me up the wall, I don't see much use in going back and not having fun. If that's making any sense?

What I'm afraid to post in Lit?
1) My opinion.
2) Joking lines like the one above.
3) I like <insert book by Karen Traviss in here>
4) You discussed that continuity bit for 20 pages now, could we move on?
5) Oh, and my fave: To heck with continuity.
2)

And here, a completely biased opinion on visiting the O66 thread
What I remember form the discussion of that book: Shysa Fenn continuity debate, Jaina's Mando training and it's importance, make up of the stormtrooper units at the time of the OT (might be wrong about that one, though). None of those have very much to do with the content of the book as far as I am concerned.
Should I have tried harder? Maybe, but not me. If people don't want to discuss anything but whatever, I don't feel like barraging in repeatedly. That might be because I usually hang out in places where all you have to do to get an answer is speak up. *shrug*
I can work on being more of a Mace!Lanna, but somehow I feel about as inclined to change myself much in order to be able to post in Lit, as Lit feels inclined to change in order to let me post there.
</rant end>


Ceillean - I think the 'problem' Lit has is continuity discussions and threads moving away from their topics.
It's easier(and easily comprehensible for posters) to do something about the second. After all, threads do have subjects and once you drift to far, it's obvious why the discussion should move back to the topic. Maybe it could be encouraged to open threads about the other topic, or just redirect to a thread already concerned with the other topic in such cases.
IIRC there's been plans about doing something in here already, so - problem not.

Continuity is -
I have no way to continue that sentence without crossing anybody.
It seems to be in the core of Lit. It tends to run over everything sometimes. In those cases, I'd like to have a place to fall back on.

*bashes in Ceillean's head anyway* *



Everybody, please ignore this banter, because Ceillean and me not only post in the same boards, we live in the same city. We know each other pretty well, this is a friendly insult.

 

Never said I was afraid to post. When you're new in Lit your posts are ignored. It's true, seriously.
I've tried it several times, asking questions, theorizing away -- and I was ignored.

It sucks the fun out of posting in Lit.
I have the feeling that most of the people posting in Lit know each other from other boards and hence it has this clique feeling and as a new poster, it's hard to get into the crowd.

And that's why it's hard to feel welcome.

Yeah. That's sort of what I meant.

Exactly. If users would stick to one topic -- the topic in the Subject line -- it would all be so much easier.

You are positively evil, Lanna! I like my head right where it is, though.


If I compare Lit to the other boards I frequent (WNU, EUC, FanFic, even JCC), the environment feels nice and people joke around and they invite you in. These are just great places to be. Unlike Lit.
I honestly have the feeling that some people want to pound their own oppinions onto you, no matter what you think or if you disagree.
If this huge argument starts, take it to the Senate. Lit is supposed to be about discussing the books/comics.
For example in the "Shadows of Mindor" thread. Instead of discussing the book, they discuss that some have already bought the book and they argue to not post where they got the book from yadda yadda yadda.
Who cares about that? It's the book I'm interested in not where anyone purchased it.

And because things like this keep happening in various threads, I stay away.
And I'm quite sure I'm not the only one.

 

I've got no problem with people who get the book way early and post spoilers. I stay away from the discussion until I've read it, but by then it's hard to jump into a discussion that's been going on for maybe 2 weeks.

 

Ceillean : When you're new in Lit your posts are ignored. It's true, seriously.
I've tried it several times, asking questions, theorizing away -- and I was ignored.

I know that I've seen several people recently mention that they were posting for the first time, and several people, including Keralys, welcomed them. If you ever post in the SOS thread, I can guarantee that you won't be ignored.

Exactly. If users would stick to one topic -- the topic in the Subject line -- it would all be so much easier.

I think the Mods have been working on this. I know that I've seen a lot more colorful words where someone's post has been deleted for not being on topic. But let's face it: Some discussion does lead to tangents, and sometimes those tangents are more interesting than the original discussion. As long as they don't go on too long, I don't see any harm in it. When you have conversations with friends, don't you ever go off on tangents? And you can always ignore the tangent and say what *you* want to say about the topic.

For example in the "Shadows of Mindor" thread. Instead of discussing the book, they discuss that some have already bought the book

Well, spoiler threads, especially prior to the book's release, can't really have discussions about the book, as no one (or just one or two ) has it yet. So the conversation is going to be wild speculation which may cross many SW topics, or it may be about excitement over where and when to get it. Since there's only ONE thread available for the new book, you're going to find that once people do start to get it and discuss it, the discussions will be all over the place, as different people will focus on different aspects of the book, from characters to plot to writing to continuity, etc. Since there *is* only one thread allowed for two weeks, anything that remotely involves the newly-released book will be "on topic".

I honestly have the feeling that some people want to pound their own oppinions onto you, no matter what you think or if you disagree.

Just state your opinion then and agree to disagree with the other poster; then let it go. You've then told the other poster that you respect their opinions but don't share them and aren't about to change your mind. There really aren't that many posters in Lit who will try to "pound their opinions" into to you. I used to try to argue a lot more with posters who felt that they had the only correct opinion, but it was an exercise in frustration and very annoying. So I'm getting better at stating my opinion; trying to use textual evidence to convince the other person that my opinion has merit; and then just agreeing to disagree when it becomes evident that we've reached an impasse. And there really are only a few people who don't respect the opinions of others. Just shrug them off. I think you'll find that the vast majority of Lit posters are friendly people.

 

I think the problem was not the spoilers but

So instead of talking about what's in the book, the discussion would be about where a user got the book, and wether to undisclose that or not.

 

A couple of salient points here. First, Lit will never be anything like WNU, and shouldn't be. It will also never be much like FanFic, and shouldn't be. It's a place for serious discussion of the EU. If that's not your cup of tea, well, you might try a different vendor for your tea. Seriously, if you're looking for light-hearted, community-oriented discussion of things related to the EU, you should go the EUC. That's what we have it for. And historically, there's a reason that the EUC and Lit split, and it's because the lighthearted community discussion and the serious discussion of EU materials didn't mix so well. I'm not saying that we ought not work to make Lit a friendly place, but if you're not interested in serious discussion of the EU, well... I'm afraid Lit is simply the wrong place for you. There are places for you on the boards: EUC, and to some extent FanFic, though YMMV, and I hope everyone hasn't forgotten some of the awful wars that have gone on in there historically.

While I'm willing to work to make Lit an inviting place for as broad a spectrum as possible, I am fundamentally not willing to compromise what Lit is: the single largest, broadest place on the entire internet for serious discussion of every aspect of the EU. There is nowhere else like it, and I will not compromise that. Period. I will do my best to make it a polite and respectful and indeed friendly place. But I will not try to tone down the amount of serious discussion going on, and I will not try to make it a place that's more like other places on the boards, just because some posters like those places better. I'm glad you like WNU and FF better; that means those forums are doing their jobs right. The fact is that we're not those places. EUC is as close as you're going to get in the EU boards. That's not what Lit is for. Doesn't mean we can't do a better job of moderating the place, but what it seems to me that you're asking Lit to be, it will never be as long as I have a say in it. I want to encourage more serious discussion, not less.

We are working on encouraging more IU discussion, and we're doing it gently and quietly for now. We may at some point decide that we need to do it more overtly. So far, it does seem to be working for the most part.

I don't see a problem with people suggesting - fairly politely - that it might not be in fans' best interests to disclose where the book came from. LSatSoM is a weird case; normally we have huge discussion based on spoilers, but in this case, almost everyone is so eagerly anticipating the book that they're avoiding the spoilers. If you're really going to find something that nitpicky to complain about, I don't really know how to make Lit a place that you'll like.

Kay, well, I have never seen someone jumped on because they liked a given book, even one that the majority violently opposes. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen it. If it does happen, you should PM me, Hav, Quest, or RF, and we'll take care of it. Period. There are a lot of posters who like Karen Traviss and aren't afraid to say so. We do need to do a better job moderating those discussion so they don't become a cauldron like they have before, but we've already said as much. Opinions are always welcomed... but they may be disagreed with. The fact that someone disagrees with you, even strongly, doesn't mean you're not welcome. It may not feel that way to you, but Lit is a place of serious discussion and debate. If you think someone is attacking you, please let us know. And saying "to heck with continuity" in a place that exists because of continuity is about like walking into a church and saying "to heck with Jesus." You may not like the discussion, and

 

Trip: Your welcome to your view of continuity I just don't prescribe to it. Continuity isn't needed for characterization and plot so far as I'm concerned.

Take something like the Transformers Franchise. Optimus Prime has been consistently characterized throughout his many, many incarnations and independent continuities in the same way. It's characterization that has nothing to do with with the overall continuity of the universe as a whole. Maybe you could call it Character Continuity, but I think thats a stretch. To me its simply consistant characterization.

I have the same view with plots. Stories like Splinter of the Minds Eye, or the Infinities works certainly have their own interesting plots, even though they fly in the face of Star Wars Continuity as a whole. Infinities itself are stories presented outside the main Star Wars continuity

How to define continuity may even be somewhat subjective. If it's "an unbroken, coherent whole" then its something the Star Wars universe has never had. I view continuity mostly the way MsLanna does. It's how the puzzle of the universe fits together, trying to keep the timeline coherent. I suggest based on the discussions in Lit that how it is most commonly viewed, but again, thats just my take.

Trip can have his, I can have mine. It's where we come together in the middle that matters.

Ceillean: Lit does feel cliquish at times and I think this might be something we can address as a whole. Perhaps we could use the social thread as a way to get to know new contributers in some way, shape or form. I think this goes to what Childofthe Winds was saying, some do get a warm welcome, it does happen, but at times certain threads feel a bit like a handful of close friends having a private discussion.

I know there is the welcome new users board on the site, but it's a long way from Lit. I think something a bit closer might be beneficial.

I don't know how many times I've rolled my eyes at the charge of posters shouting "In before the lock!" when a newbie posts a thread against forum rules, rules they are not familiar with even if they exist in print at the top of the forum.

I honestly have the feeling that some people want to pound their own opinions onto you, no matter what you think or if you disagree

I've found this better of late, but it does exist and I think always will. It's the difference of the interpretations of canon we were discussing a few pages back. I persoanlly have never felt the need to pronounce someone "completely wrong", but some do and will. I'm to the point where I just turn away from that approach and end my part in the discussion.

 

You couldn't be more mistaken. Literature of today and recent year is very easy going. We can call each other almost anything up to and including blue painted imbeciles and get joked right back without offense taken. I've not noticed any newcomers being ignored or pounced upon.

 

Sorry, I should have responded to this in my earlier post but it took me a while to think on it and a hideous day of work.

It's a place for serious discussion, except for the satire threads, the satiric pictures, the fun had in the Social Thread, etc..... I think you overstate your case a bit here. There are a ton of fun aspects to Lit, sometimes too much for my tastes.

We've discussed the satire threads at length by PM and I'm completely fine with their inclusion with a warning in the thread title. Just, lets not say "Lit is for serious discussion, period", because it simply isn't. There is room for discussion of almost anything, Hoojibs to Gungans, Lizard Monkeys to Natasi Daala. Some subjects are serious, some are kinda fluffy and some are down right funny.

 

Rob - it's possible to be definitely, objectively wrong, and when this happens, it's kind of unreasonable to expect people to agree to disagree or to try and meet you in the middle. Not everything's a matter of opinion.

 

Merry Christmas.
*headdesk*

Keralys - Before I answer, I'd like a word on my post from the 18th. Why the Sith did nobody reply to that?

Nobody said it was for real all over Lit; it's a feeling users not posting there a lot get.
Personally, I didn't find the O66 Thread easy-going at all. Other threads are definitely nicer.

Of course, you'd have to believe in objective reality for that. I know many people do. Unfortunately, I don't.