Lit SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Charlemagne19

One of Luke's major character arcs is the fact that he's full of anger, impatience, and "for bit a nail" he might have ended up becoming a New Darth Vader.
Luke chooses the Light but BY A HAIR'S BREADTH.

You really DO seem to think that Luke was mostly dark in the films, don't you??? I found Luke to be a whole lot more Light than dark. Yes, he got angry when Vader threatened his sister, and nearly killed Vader because of his concern for Leia. But until that point in the fight, Luke was trying very hard NOT to fight Anakin/Vader. I didn't really see all that much darkness in Luke throughout the rest of the films, except for the scene with the Gamorreans. But you'll notice he didn't hurt or kill them, he merely "distracted" them so he could get past without serious damage to himself or them. And yes, Luke probably could have found a different way to distract him, but I chalk it up to him being rather new at this "Jedi-business."

I AM curious though about how others viewed the Luke of the films. Mostly dark? Mostly light? Lightside only by a "hair's breadth"?

He's got GREAT capacity for evil in him, just as he has great capacity for good.

I see far more good than evil in Luke. However, I will say that since Del Rey got the contract, I've seen Luke do more morally questionable things than he did earlier. This doesn't make a lot of sense either, as one would think that the longer Luke has been a Jedi, the less the likelihood that he would make morally questionable choices.

Dingo

Luke isn't a saint on a pedestal who embodies all that is good and holy, but someone that struggles with the darkness and deliberately chooses the Light.

I will agree that Luke certainly isn't perfect. I agree that like all Jedi he struggles with the darkness sometimes, but he deliberately chooses the Light most often. I don't see Luke as one who is closer to the dark side than most Jedi. Unfortunately, the way in which he has been written lately, especially in DN and LotF and the choices he has been portrayed as making, HAVE made it seem as though Luke's losing his moral compass, and I really, really don't like that at all. Luke should be the one character who does what is right, no matter how difficult...at least most of the time.

 

Del Rey's answer has been, variously: Find a better dragon, and, Become a dragon themselves.

I think the question deserves some serious exploration. I think Mothma had a superb point; who says the Jedi have to be elite task-force-type people? Don't Jedi include healers and librarians, however forgotten those two may be? Why must every Jedi channel their Force-powers into battling galactic evil? Why not have a Jedi who works to shut down pirate organisations, a Jedi who adds security to a bank, a Jedi who helps combat poverty, a Jedi who works to educate underprivileged kids? Not grand work, but necessary, and as in-keeping with the Jedi Code as its possible to be. Yes, there are Jedi Knights; but they aren't just Knights, they are also Jedi.

Furthermore, there's little reason why both couldn't be possible. Say, a Jedi simply files for a holiday - and goes off to save a random planet? A Jedi learns skills much-needed, and becomes useful in a situation facing him?


I totally agree with this and it's always the sort of thing I wanted to see Luke doing during times when he wasn't out slaying the dragon.

It's the little things neglected that escalate into big trouble anyway. That's what I've always felt the Jedi should do best is noticing what needs to be done, no matter what it might be.

If we had had a Jedi like Luke and his group here on Earth would we have things like Al Queda?
Or would Luke have mediated and cajoled, helped and defended where necessary to limit the negatives in the world, be they natural disaters or created by living beings. That's the Luke to me that has been a Missing Person in the Del Rey universe.

 

If we had had a Jedi like Luke and his group here on Earth would we have things like Al Queda?
Or would Luke have mediated and cajoled, helped and defended where necessary to limit the negatives in the world, be they natural disaters or created by living beings. That's the Luke to me that has been a Missing Person in the Del Rey universe.

I liked the Peace Makers role of Jedi that we rarely see.

Luke and company would be wandering from Israel to Pakistan and India or whatnot.

Then they'd take out some gangsters and terrorists.

Maybe overthrow an evil government or two.

 

Seriously? The status quo? Luke's entire hero's journey was specifically working to topple the status quo. That's how he's always worked best. Fighting the status quo, trying to shore the defenses of an underdog rebellion or establishing a fledging government. And even during the struggle to establish that fledgling government he and his sister and friends had to struggle against the status quo of political machinations from "friends" and foes alike.

Luke is working best in LOTF stuggling against the status quo that Jacen has established. He worked best in the NJO when the finally decided to have the NR remnants return to a Rebel Alliance style fight against the Yuuzhan Vong.

Luke's about truth and justice... just not necessarily an allegiance to a particular government in case that government goes against truth and justice. He flounders when he does otherwise. It just happens that most of Bantam was spent with the NR being clearly on the side of truth and justice until HoT.

 

I can agree with this. They'd work to minimize injustice in the world because... as Luke said in TUF, the dark side finds adherents where ever injustice prevails.

 

AnnLouise

Luke - and Leia - appear almost as slow on the uptake as their old man. They finally learn in the DN trilogy everything we saw in ROTS; it seems hard to believe that they'd be unable to find out anything about that time until R2 develops a glitch Palp was smart, but I don't think he'd be able to so totally erase history.

Oh, yes! I agree! There were people who actually LIVED through those times too! I find it difficult to believe that they couldn't have learned some things even from Mon Mothma or from Obi-wan Kenobi. Sure, Obi-wan wasn't willing to share the truth with Luke prior to RotJ, but he supposedly visited Luke as a ghost more than once. Couldn't he have shared some family history with Luke then?

It also seems rather odd that Artoo would record all of that stuff in the first place.

Luke is like Aragorn from LOTR; he's not boring when written well, and tbey're characters who can show doubt, or fear, but without losing the essential core of their personality.

And one of the essential characteristics of Luke Skywalker should be his "moral goodness". We shouldn't see Luke, a hero, making the same mistake (the vengeance killing of Lumiya), for example, that we see Anakin Skywalker, the future villain, make (the vengeance killing of the Tuskins). We should see a different choice made by the hero, especially when it's hard to make that right choice. That's what makes a hero. Yes, heroes have flaws, but Luke Skywalker has been written with far, far too many flaws. The character is regressing instead of growing. He was a stronger character in VotF and a better hero than he is in Sacrifice, and that shouldn't be.

Luke is the Jedi Grandmaster now, and we should see him making far more good decisions than bad ones. We should see some of the wisdom he has gained from past mistakes he's made. He should be the model that all of the younger Jedi can look up to.


MasterSkywalker86
I been reading SotP and it has been enjoyable to see Luke in character and for once I feel like it's an actual SW book. The character is resourceful, powerful, wise, and has that moral goodness we witness in the movies and the older books.

Wouldn't it be refreshing to see this True Luke again???

I agree that I want Luke to be given something important to do in the next book AND in the next series, but if it involves the dark side again, then I'd rather have Luke not appear in the book or series at all, as much as I hate to say it. I agree with you that the Dark Side has been overdone. And I don't like that it does appear that Luke will be sitting things out in Invincible because he's worried about going dark. It just seems like a way of not letting Luke be a hero again. The Dark Side should no longer be an issue for Luke. And I don't see how Jaina would be less likely to go dark. This is her TWIN she would be facing.

I'd also like to see Luke be portrayed as competent, smart, and resourceful again. It's been a long time since we've seen those qualities in Luke, yet they were very evident in the films.

 

Charles:
You're right that post-prequels we'll never see the diversity of Jedi that, for example, for all his faults, KJA tried to envision every now and again. But that's our loss. Why does Luke have to emulate the OJO? Answer; because the fans expect the definition and working-out of what it means to be a 'Jedi' to be the same. Sensible suggestions like Mon Mothma's have been ignored, sacrificed to the PT.

CoW:
Yeah, we're on pretty much identical tracks re: where we'd like to see the Jedi Order go!

Re: how dark was Luke in the films? My view is that he wavered in RotJ, having lost his path to a degree in his father-figure. However, I also view his rescue of Han as more than a diversion, but also a helpful hint towards the Light Side. Suffice to say I think of Luke as a guy who was profoundly tempted, but who when the cards were down was good to the bone. But then, I think the 'Dark Side' and Luke has been overplayed.

Mariah:
Good point. If the Jedi were doing what I suggest, being concerned with the 'little things', how many dragons would never have needed slaying? How many Vong wars would have been less bloodthirsty because everyone knew who the Jedi were and wouldn't dream of handing them over, how many Confederations would never have had the chance to rise to civil war?

Or would Luke have mediated and cajoled, helped and defended where necessary to limit the negatives in the world, be they natural disaters or created by living beings. That's the Luke to me that has been a Missing Person in the Del Rey universe.

Absolutely!

Dawud:
Luke's about truth and justice... just not necessarily an allegiance to a particular government in case that government goes against truth and justice. He flounders when he does otherwise. It just happens that most of Bantam was spent with the NR being clearly on the side of truth and justice until HoT.

Good post!

 

Marriage is a contract that expires upon death. Luke should do what makes him happy. He doesn't owe Mara anything more. He was faithful and loving and IMO, a more loving partner to her, than she was to him. Mara shouldn't hang around, I doubt she would anyway. i think she'd like Luke to move on and be content. That is true, mature love.

It's not Anakin's story. It's the Skywalker's story. Luke is not more of a Skywalker than Padme, Leia, Anakin, Mara, Ben, or Shmi. Each family member is 100% fully vested.

Anakin stopped Palpatine, which he was born to do. The Force does what's required to have an outcome. Krayt's Order isn't nearly as vile as Palps, and the Imperial Knights aren't really Jedi, they don't serve the force. Balance needs to be struck again. I think the Vong messed thiings up that might otherwise have lasted a very long time.

 

Thrawn McEwok

Welcome back to the SOS thread itself!!

Thanks! It feels good to have the thread back where I've always felt it belongs!

Personally, I think Luke may be lying, and Mara may know he is - and tolerate it.

I guess I would much prefer it if they were honest with one another, especially about the "big" things like that. In *my* canon, Luke and Mara are truthful, and I think the official canon can support my position too. I think trust is very important in any relationship, and regardless of whether or not they would forgive one another for lying, I would like to think their relationship was strong enough that they wouldn't need to forgive one another because they would be truthful, no matter what the circumstances.

Well, I assume he'll do something in this novel.

Any ideas as to what Luke might do in Invincible...besides fly an X-wing? The blurb about having Luke place an illusion of his face on Jaina sounds REALLY odd and silly to me. I can't see how that would help Jaina either. As I've said before, if Luke were to join his Force power to Jaina's, THAT would be helpful to her, and THAT would make some sense.

See, I don't see any dichotomy between "Jedi knight" and "X-wing pilot". Jedi are knights with lightsabers who defend peace and justice in the Galaxy, and I think that they'd do that better from the X-wing cockpit than from the High Council Chamber, or even the bridge of a Star Destroyer...

I can see that Luke accomplished quite a lot when he took out the Death Star, yes. BUT, can you please explain to me why you think having Luke sitting in a tiny X-wing in the middle of a huge battle with a lot of enormous ships is going to be the best use of the Jedi Grand Master's talents?


*nods*

And I think having Luke regress and lose his moral center was a tremendous mistake and not very respectful of the character. Star Wars should have one character that could be counted on to do the right thing, and I think Luke should be that character. Readers shouldn't have to decide who committed the worst act in a book: the hero or the villain, as was the case in Sacrifice, I think.

Not a problem for me. As I already said, I'd like to see Luke and Tenel Ka get together. I think they make a cute couple.

I think Jacen might have something to say about that! As I said, if Luke remarries, I'd like for him to marry a totally new character.

 

You're right that post-prequels we'll never see the diversity of Jedi that, for example, for all his faults, KJA tried to envision every now and again. But that's our loss. Why does Luke have to emulate the OJO? Answer; because the fans expect the definition and working-out of what it means to be a 'Jedi' to be the same. Sensible suggestions like Mon Mothma's have been ignored, sacrificed to the PT.

maybe, I also liked Lucas' version of the Jedi. He treated the Jedi Knights as a religion, which is something that very few people bothered to do before the Prequels (and still haven't really bothered to do). Seriously, is it just me or do the Jedi talk about the Dark Side alot but never the freaking FORCE?

 

Don't forget Cade, Kol and possibly Zayne as well.

 

Jedi Ben :

Right, plus a lightsaber, a cable, and a detonator. I loved how Luke took down one AT-AT single-handedly. Did he give up when he had his snowspeeder knocked out of the sky. Nope! Not Luke!
* Scratch one AT-AT.

And that's the Luke I'd like to see more of, the guy who was resourceful and found a way to accomplish his goals no matter what the circumstances!

* I don't see the two as mutually exclusive, yes Luke did focus on rebuilding the Jedi but he never gave up flying an X-Wing either.

Of course he wouldn't give up flying an X-wing! Luke LOVES to fly! But I can't see how being an X-wing pilot would be the greatest use of Luke's gifts. Why risk the Jedi Grand Master in a little X-wing during a fierce battle against a huge fleet of enormous battle cruisers when his talents would be benefit a greater number of people elsewhere?

Does Luke kill Lumiya or let her fall, knowing she could survive by slowing her descent at the last few seconds and that no cell can hold her?

I just wish Luke's killing of Lumiya had been done differently. I think it was done this way mostly as a plot device to keep Luke from facing Jacen in Invincible. Luke should have killed Lumiya because she was a danger to the galaxy, not because he thought she killed Mara.

Lord_Riven

I can agree that Luke and Anakin share main character status. We definitely are in agreement about Luke's portrayal in Sacrifice! I agree that Luke is supposed to be different from Anakin and that he's NOT meant to do "morally ambiguous things". It WAS out of character for Luke to kill for revenge.

Rouge77

It would be possible for Kol to be a son of a Hapan princess, Allana's grandson. The relationship would be so distant, that I don't think the joining of Luke and Leia's lineages this way would bother anyone.

This COULD work. I'd like to see Cade and Marasiah too, as LR says, it would be nice for the SKywalker to marry the "Princess" this time. But you're right, after that Luke's descendants DO need to start looking for mates "farther than from the pages of their family's genealogy book".

What comes to the Anakin/Luke thing, in the movies it's more Anakin's story now - his life is the unifying thing.

As I said, I do have a hard time accepting the villain as the focus of the story.

Yes, Luke is more important than Anakin in the EU, but as you said, Legacy looms in the not-so-distant future and it largely destroys Luke's accomplishments, his legacy.

JK_Dart:

Incidentally, on to the 'relationships' topic: Who was Deena Shan? And who was Alex Winger?

Deena is a character in the Rebellion comics, and Alex Winger was a character in the Adventure Journal.

I definitely agree with you that the 'Dark Side' and Luke has been overplayed.


MariahJade2

I totally agree with this and it's always the sort of thing I wanted to see Luke doing during times when he wasn't out slaying the dragon.

It's too bad that he keeps getting so many dragons to slay...especially since so many books go by before he actually gets to slay them. It makes him look foolish and incompetent when 19 books or 3 books go by before Luke is allowed to defeat the villain. And it looks like he probably won't be defeating the most recent one.

Or would Luke have mediated and cajoled, helped and defended where necessary to limit the negatives in the world, be they natural disaters or created by living beings. That's the Luke to me that has been a Missing Person in the Del Rey universe.

Right, the active, resourceful one.

 

Just changing the title to be more clear that the thread is about Luke.

If you guys can come up with a better one, I can change it to that...

 

EWWWWWW EWWWW EWWWWW! Luke doesn't need to remarry as he doesn't need to remarry. He just needs to help defeat Jacen w/o being killed off and then raise Ben to an adult, see him get married and have at least two children, and then die much later on. He doesn't need to get remarried to someone 30 years younger.

 

For me, I think its important to not think Jedi.

Think Jedi Knights.

Always remember, they're a Warrior Order.

Wars do not make one great.

But Order does.

;-)

So yeah, if Luke was on Earth he'd be plenty occupied with stopping the numerous RL tragedies of our planet. He'd try and bring democracy to North Korea, stop the genocides in Africa, bring in terrorists like Osama, try and get torture laws overturned or just flat out free the prisoners subjected to them, and heal the sick of incurable diseases like AIDs in his spare time. There's no end of work for a Jedi without bringing....Jedi Carpentry in it or whatever.

 

Luke should've taken Mon Mothma's advice about the Order. She had experience of the Jedi closing themselves off and locking themselves in a literal tower. it would've been nice.

And it's cool how he took down the AT-AT. Shows he doesn't need the Force as much as other Jedi. I wonder how Obi-Wan or Anakin would've done, or Mace. I mean without the Force, too.

 

Dart
2) What can they do with Luke next?
He needs authors who can actually write him, who can work out ways to make him handy.
Luke needs a character arc. He needs a reason to be, a way in which to grow and develop as a person, rather than just becoming a static force brought into play to end the series.

Right on! I totally agree.

The problem's been DR has shifted the story away from character arcs this gives the galaxy a more realistic feel to it that I think was a big mistake. SW is a franchise based around the storytelling convention known as the Hero's Journey. So to counter that causes it to no longer feel like SW anymore. What DR needs to do is have characters go through the hero's journey...The fall of heroes, the aging hero riding one last time, The apotheosis of a hero, the rite of passage or emergence of a hero...They need to bring back character arcs...they need to return the story's balance back to focus more on character and less on shock value plots.

In other words they need to start thinking and planning ahead (which despite their saying so I still can't tell that Traviss Denning or Allston know eachother's e-mail address let alone have spent time coordinating closely enough to pull LOTF off smoothly-which they haven't)

I'm starting to feel that this whole relay race approach to writing these big series is severely flawed and they should just get someone like Luceno to write a nine book series by himself.

C19
Why does Luke have to emulate the OJO? Answer; because the fans expect the definition and working-out of what it means to be a 'Jedi' to be the same.

I can understand why DR would think this but they need to look deeper and realize there is a progression on a few things with the Jedi order from old to new. Luke's order represented a renaissance of the Jedi in its purest form not a resurrection of the dogmatic and stilted views of the Order in its waning days. Luke should have clarified all that stuff like he clarified the whole ban on marriage and I can't help but be bitter that they aren't being faithful to that.

 

As Leia does not seem to have her own Subject list on this board:

I am trying to remember an EU novel that featured Leia discovering a secret Imperial prison, and realizing that this facility doesn't hold Black Sun or other gangsters, but political prisoners the Empire would want to keep out of site. Basically, the Empire usually kept criminals in flashy prisons while Rebels and Dissidents on other prisons.

Which novel was this? What was the name of the prison?

 

Rouge Follower:

Just changing the title to be more clear that the thread is about Luke.
If you guys can come up with a better one, I can change it to that...

So we can't keep the other new title? I asked in the thread and got no response...everyone was too busy talking.

So I sent PMs to ten individuals, and out of 8 responses so far, 6 wanted to keep the new title.

If we can't keep it, can you at least add version 3 to the title?

Does anyone have another idea for the title of the thread? Maybe "SOS Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker , version 3" ? I do think we should add the Save Our Skywalker to the SOS Luke Skywalker.

 

By a hair's breath?

But the whole OT portrayed Luke choosing the moral right the whole time. In Episode 5 - Vader offered him the choice to join him and live, Luke chose to jump and possibly die (luckily the MF was there to catch him). Episode 6 - Luke chose to stand against the Emperor when he could have easily chose to join him and rule.

Throughout the Bantam era - we see Luke has been consistently making the right moral choices in terms of Light/Dark. With the exception of Dark Empire when he chose to serve the Emperor. And we all agree that Sidious is a master of trickery. To have Luke stoop to something as low and simple as base revenge is utterly OOC.

 

Yep.

Well, let me point out something. The Luke Skywalker in A New Hope is just a guy. Luke is a nice guy but he's not a hero until the very end of it. I think that both of us would probably be willing to give a lift to the nearest city for a guy whose trying to save the world, if nothing else. That was about as far as Luke Skywalker was willing to go for Obi Wan Kenobi and that was better than some people. It took the slaughter of his adopted parents in order to allow him to go join the Rebellion like he'd always wanted.

The Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back is a cocky little snot. Darth Vader announces the fact he intends to turn him to the Dark Side. Yoda repeatedly states that Luke is not ready to be a Jedi and thinking of it for the excitement/glory that come with being a hero rather than helping people. We see his failure in the Cave Illustrate that he's not nearly as good as he thinks he is. Then he goes off, disobeying his master for altruistic reasons but goes IMMEDIATELY after Vader when he senses him.

He hates Vader and that trumps his loyalty to Leia and Han. Then, he commits suicide because he cannot reconcile his father with the man he knew.

In Empire Strikes Back. He's taken to wearing black, force strangling Gamorreans, and plotting Jabba the Hutt's assassination. He wants to help Darth Vader turn back to the Light Side of the Force but he also has come to crystalize that hatred. If Luke had murdered his own father out of anger, in the end, Palpatine would have been able to turn him. Probably for noble and selfless reasons but Luke would have joined the cause of evil.

He's not the MORAL voice of ANH, save in comparison to Han. That's Obi Wan Kenobi.

YODA is the moral voice of ESB.

Luke is also in a temptation drama in ROTJ.

Actually, I think it's fairly in character that Luke Skywalker would lose his cool. The problem is that I think the mood was wrong for something as SIMPLE as revenge. Karen Traviss wrote the scene well and gave us a line that could be interpreted in a lot of different ways. I could easilly see Luke cutting down Lumiya and spreading her entrails across the ground. Why? Because he's Luke Skywalker and he's an emotional hot-head despite all his Jedi training. Even Mace Windu lost his cool after the deaths of so many friends.

Frankly, I prefer the interpretation Luke decided Lumiya had to die.

What I don't think is in character or EVER telegraphed in the Trilogy is Luke as this Hamlet overthinker. Luke moves on with his life.

 

I can understand why DR would think this but they need to look deeper and realize there is a progression on a few things with the Jedi order from old to new. Luke's order represented a renaissance of the Jedi in its purest form not a resurrection of the dogmatic and stilted views of the Order in its waning days. Luke should have clarified all that stuff like he clarified the whole ban on marriage and I can't help but be bitter that they aren't being faithful to that.

I don't see the Jedi of the Prequel as bad.

I consider them at their height. They have some flaws but there's much good to imitate and much to learn from them. Why the Hell should the Jedi just keep the name, the Force, and some lightsabers? Why must EVERYTHING suck? I think Luke acknowledged that they're a martial order and that Jacen Solo's ideals were corrosive. Jedi are not politicians or Royalty like Tenel Ka wants to be.

They're Defenders of Justice.

His ultimatum was a good idea. Yay for Troy Denning.

 

They're disconnected from the people, from real life. They're arrogant, shortsighted and far too dependent on 'the Will of the Force' and the Force in particular.

They didn't have it. They never had it. The ultimatum? Stupid, really stupid idea.

There are different paths to justice, and not all of them are guided by a lightsaber's blade.

 

And they're still smarter than the whole of the galaxy in they saw Palpatine was evil.

Yes, and Luke wields a lightsaber.

He should have CLEARLY just stayed an X-wing pilot and never realized his potential while letting the galaxy burn under the Sith.

Let's be objective.

The Wedge Antilles of the world will never contribute as much as the Prequel Jedi, let alone the NJO.

 

Not all of them, Mace admired Palps. And who organized the Rebellion? Mon Mothma and Bail Organa.

And Luke also wielded a harpoon gun, blaster, stolkhi stun stick and other implements. The lightsaber is not the only path to justice, but it is a path.

And I never said Luke should give up being a Jedi. I never said any of them should. Jedi merchant, Jedi pilot. Jedi architect. Go out into the real world during the day, and go back to the Temple/home at night. That should've been the path of Luke's Order.

And I'd rather have Wedge at my back than 99% of the OJO, to be blunt.