Terrorists!

Art (and all),

Moved this from the "Why Them" thread so as not to completely bury Katie's original question. If anyone's having a hard time keeping up reread the "Why Them?"

Mostly agree with the rebels not being true terrorists but not for the same reasons you listed. Primarily, they don't intend to strike fear to prevent everyone from being able to live their life, which is the goal of a true terrorist IMO. As you note, they are the weaker force and use semi-guerilla tactics, but that's a trademark of terrorists. Any terrorist group that really had the strength to directly confront their enemy would do so. That's the heart of why terrorists become terrorists.

My earlier statement about everyone being fairly content rides on a few logical points. In ANH, Luke matter of factly says that "nobody likes the Empire but its a long way away". When the stormtroopers march through the streets of Mos Eisley, they don't totally disrupt everything. These guys go into bars and through the streets and aren't regarded as anything more than another feature, stopping traffic, etc. (My interpretation is that the troops deployed from the star destroyer and weren't based on the planet). This shows contentment through indifference. Not approval but nothing anyone wants to muss their hair over. In ESB, Bespin has been left relatively unbothered until it falls into Vader's focus. The Empire's harsh tactics are actually at the direct order of Vader not as any demonstrated policy.

At the risk of really stirring up a couple of flame wars, I see the entire emporer/Vader situation equal to the US military under our previous president, admittedly one hyper-evil rather than just lacking basic morals. They don't like him any more than the average guy on the street but recognize the importance of keeping the social and government systems in-place. In that manner, they don't interpret their orders but just follow them out. IMO, this is the flaw of many SW books that try to make the Empire personnel into twisted, self-centered, power hungry madmen, which doesn't coincide with thier movie origins. At least to me, in the movies, there is a clear message that the Empire soldiers are honorable guys. Tarkin is the one possible exception to this depending on your interpretation of his decision to blast Alderan. I contend that was a good strategic decision but that's a discussion for a different thread if we want to take that up. The books try to portray everyone in the empire as an evil SOB, when the films show that only Vader and the emporer were actually twisted. I saw the Empire personnel as a bunch of guys who didn't like Vader or the emporer any more than the rebels did.

Thinking about it a bit, classifying the SW rebels is a definite challenge. Since they are the good guys in the movies, its hard to consider them any other way, but their actions aren't sterling by any means. When you consider the destruction they inflicted just to get two guys (Palpatine and Vader) they caused a Hell of a lot of deaths. The destruction of the first Death Star must have killed far more people than the destruction of Alderan since Alderan was populated only on the continents and the Death Star was crammed level by level with functional garrisons. I'd call that a legitimate kill because the rebel base was about to be attacked but the second Death Star, which would have also had a huge contingent in personnel, was supposed to be a sneak attack when the rebels planned it. That is reasonably close to a terrorist act depending on how you consider the rebels. Pearl Harbor was a military attack because it was launched by a recognized government military that acted in the name of a government. How might we have considered that attack if it had been launched by a bunch of angry Japanese civilians using private planes and boats? Its a very fine and highly interpretive line.

The concurrent question is, what makes one a soldier. Typically, the one irrefutable quality is that a soldier represents a legitimate government, which gives him

 

Having nothing better to do at work.....

I'll try and hit a few points and keep this short.

>>My earlier statement about everyone being >>fairly content rides on a few logical >>points.

Your ANH example is good but only that most people don't want to buck the system or like you said they are indifferent to it. We don't know why that is though. It could be because the Empire has proven in past examples that if you show any disapproval they will stomp it out. However, the indifference doesn't mean that the Empire is doing a good job running the empire. We cannot know (maybe the third movie helps) just what it is like in the time before ANH. And if we are on that point, the only reason the Empire exists (according to AOTC which again I think is stupid) is because of the Emperor. He set *everything* in motion to become the Emperor and bring about the Empire. Who asked him to move in and set up his dictatorship? (JAR JAR is an IDIOT. )

>>They don't like him any more than the >>average guy on the street but recognize >>the importance of keeping the social and >>government systems in-place.

Well, I agree there. Most of the men who fight for the Empire are not evil. They serve with honor. But then again, I also don't know what the Code of Conduct for Members of the Imperial Armed Forces or the Uniformed Code of Military Justice for the Imps is either. Personally I can't see where the deaths of the Jawa's, Luke's Aunt and Uncle, and the people of Alderaan were warranted or anything more than terror attacks. The first two were examples of what happens if you defy the Empire and the last was a tactic used to terrorise and sow fear. In our society, members of the armed forces have a duty to stop that.

>> In that manner, they don't interpret >>their orders but just follow them out.

Following blind orders though isn't always the right thing to do. Our society today agrees with that. There is such a thing as an illegal order. Again, without knowing more about the military of the Imperials you cannot know if that exists for them. Since our officers could not shot a subordinate we know it is not entirely the same.

>>IMO, this is the flaw of many SW books >>that try to make the Empire personnel into

Actually I think it's more of the men in position to hold power but I do agree there. I've often wanted a book that has something to do with the Empire that shows that it is doing something good. But when that question was asked at a con, the editor said something like "there wouldn't be enough interest".

>>about to be attacked but the second Death >>Star, which would have also had a huge

Well, in the second attack you had multiple governments that were now supporting the rebels. The Mon Calamarian's gave the Rebels most of their Naval Fleet. The Bothan's were using their military to spy on the Imperials. Both governments were technically in the Empire though. That wasn't really brought out by the movies.
Reading the books, their are multiple governments behind the rebellion after ANH. And what of the Government of Alderaan? We know there was one. They had a diplomatic mission at the start of ANH. So at least one recognized government was supporting this even if they were doing so covertly. There was a discussion on the boards somewhere by Thumper (again) on if the soldiers aboard Leia's ship in the opening of ANH were in fact Alderaan soldiers or Rebel Troopers. Most people tended to think they were Alderaan soldiers if I remember correctly.

>>(I honestly thought the special edition >>version was a pretty stupid ending. I >>liked the strict Ewok celebration >>infinitely more).

I agree there. Lucas tries to make sense of the books that have been written and I think in parts they fail. He didn't need to tie everything together. It really makes things difficult to understand.

Just the fact that in something like 40 years the military of the "empire" grows from about 10,000 to be able to crew multiple Death Stars, multiple Super Star Destroyers and more and

 

Art,

The code of conduct for the Imperial Armed Forces is pretty close to the Russian wartime codes during the Cold War. Senior officers could order the execution of subordinate officers for corruption or incompetence. Lucas modeled the Evil Galactic Empire after the Nazi's but seemed to give them Russian procedures.

I can't defend the burning of Owen's farm. That's a lot like the US Army dropping in on an Afghani farm while trying to hunt down stolen plans for a Hydrogen bomb and killing the farm owner and his family because they might have seen the plans. On the surface, it seems that the two really evil acts in the OT, the burning of the farm and the torturing of Han Solo, were committed by clone soldiers bred for compliance and loyalty. However, the hunt for R2 in ANH was supposedly "personally" overseen by Vader's aide. Theoretically, he'd have given the order. The torturing can be explained this way though. However, since the actual acts were conducted by clone soldiers, there's no reason to expect they'd question their orders or determine their legality.

As for the DS2 (Hey, I came up with a new abbreviation), I think you need to examine the scope. Mon Calimari and the Bothan planets are subscribers to the government, not a government itself when you're dealing with the Galactic Empire level. To legitimately have authority to use deadly force, they'd have to come from an equal empire. Otherwise, its like the Florida National Guard attacking Patrick AFB and the White House because they don't like President Bush's policies. That act would make the Florida National Guard criminals at best and terrorists at worst.

I didn't have a problem with the Empire buildup from 10,000 soldiers. As I understand it, the clones are the origins of the stormtroopers and all the ship crews, garrison crews, and the like are regular military personnel. My bigger problem is going from nothing to the ROTJ starfleet in addition to DS1 and DS2 from practically nothing while fighting two major conflicts.

Of course, that in itself might be a good arguement in favor of the empire. Look what an evil emporer can get accomplished compared to the ineffective Republic Senate.

Sandy

 

Okay. I never thought of the "following" orders thing in ANH. That is very possible and I could understand the situation then. Not saying it was right, but I can see then how you can say it may have been the act of a few rather than the organization.

As for the DS2, well, since you used the example of the Florida Guard...I'll stay with that one.

If FL's people and government decided that they didn't want to be a part of the US anymore and it came to open conflict then I have no problem if they use the Guard to attack. Our country's civil war was all about that. They rebelled and set up their own government. The difference is when the real government stepped in they brought the rebels under their heel. I see the Empire/Rebel conflict in the same light. In the SW universe, it started out with all of the worlds electing a president. He took more and more power and set up a dictatorship. Which was not what the planetary governments signed up for. Then the council that elected him in the first place was disolved. That doesn't mean their governments have any less credibility or that they don't have military forces. The movies at least do not touch upon that fact really. The books all seem to agree that at least the alien worlds all had some type of military. And some human worlds like Corellia had their own military.

Like you said, it's a hard thing to judge. I'm sure that in a universe that's supposed to be that large, there are stories that can prove just how bad the Rebels are too. And again, history writers write their books based on the winner generally. In fact, one of the SW books tells of how the Galactic Muesum in the Imperial Palace on Coruscant tells the story of the Death of the Emperor who died on the Empirer's planetary mining machine when a group of terrorists attacked it. (or something like that)

 

Ruckus wrote in the other thread ..

>"Revolutionaries fight to bring about a >just and civil way of living. Or atleast >what they see just and civil."

Not sure I agree with this definition. By this framework, Bin Ladin's losers are revolutionaries fighting for the just and civil Mulsim cause.

Art,

I repeat my earlier statement. The best way to not be called a terrorist is to win!

Sandy

 

yes. But what government are they being oppresed by? Ours? The worlds? I bet if they just lived life in Iran and followed Muslim law and bided by the rules of the country I imagine they could live long prosperous lives. However they use terror and subversion to interfere with the lives of people who have done nothing wrong. The American Revolutionaries were oppresed and ruled by fear. They made a stand to fight what they thought was right. They made a clear declaration to King George what they intended to do. They fought for the most part honorably and didn't use widespread terror and panic to win. Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and organizations alike have no declaration- they claim they have a divine will to do what they do. Faceless cowards have never been revolutionaries.

Also- in The Journal of Whills. Just dawned on me. Leia makes an impassioned declaration on her thoughts of the Galactic Empire and why the Rebellion must restore the ideas behind the old Republic.

 

My take:

To be a rebel, one must oppose the order of the current system.

To be a terrorist, one will create terror and mayhem to lash out at the enemy.

The rebellion gives the appearance of people attempting to work within the system to try to change it. And when those attempts fail, they move to a more secretive approach. The rebellion (as far as we saw) did not use terrorist tactics to wound the Empire. Terrorist tactics would give more credence to the Empire's point of view. The rebellion seemed to work for 'the common good' by attempting to remove the Empire or change the way that the Empire operates.

Terrorism, on the other hand, is used to instill fear and inflict chaos towards your enemy. Terrorism is hate or revenge directed at your enemy and acted upon with the sole purpose of inflicting pain or damage without a forseeable advantage towards your cause.

Basically it comes down to one thing... A message.

With New York City, no demands were made before or after. No 'message' was give to leave them alone or remove the opressive laws of the US. As far as I recall, the US didn't have much in place over in Taliban controlled countries.

Rebellions seem to want to survive, not control.

Just my opinion...

Herm
JRHERMLE@AOL.COM

 

Ruckus,

I'm not sure you're applying your arguement universally. The Muslim extremists are sufferring hardship from us according to thier own narrow belief systems. We are responsible for many of their ills. The only way they can defend against us is to use terror and thier goal is to wipe out our evil core so the mass of all mankind can live in a vast Muslim paradise. The Muslim fanatics are making a stand for what they think is right, just like the American "revolutionaries", whom the British did believe were terrorists. The only problem is that the Bin Laden group and associate's are such wacked out freaks its hard for us to even connect with what their problem is.

Ref: SW rebels, the Imps would likely think of them as faceless cowards as well. Art pointed out that they couldn't be terrorists because they attacked military targets but most of us regarded the attack on the Cole as an act of terrorism because it was a strike without a declaration of war. In fact, Al Qaeda decalred war and "Death to America" in 1994. Nobody took them seriously. From the Imp side, most of the arguements I'm hearing about why the SW rebels aren't terrorists seem to place them closer to that definition. The main difference is that the SW rebels are the good guys in the movies and you're supposed to like them. No reasonable person can find anything they like about our modern day terrorist groups.

Herm,

I had to think about this one a bit. Not sure I agree or disagree yet. I don't recall any reference one way or another explaining that the rebels first tried to work within the system. The movies start out with them definitely using force to get what they want.

You said that terrorism are acts of hate to inflict damage without a cause. My definition of terrorism includes acts of hate and revenge with a cause. I'd call the suicide bombings terrorist acts, even though they are planned and coordinated with defnite goals in mind. Same with Bin Ladin's strikes on US targets. He started wanting the US to withdraw its military from Saudi, and then expanded to Asia, and finally took up the sword to convert the world to Islam. His planners had definite goals in mind, namely to limit US and Western European power and reduce our will to interfere in the affairs of the Near and Middle East.

To some degree, that draws a close comparison to the SW rebel survival arguements. Admittedly, its hard to assess since the "Evil Galactic Empire's" exploits were only explained in films with the intro text. (At least we knew why the Cylons were evil).

I want to pose a question to you for clarification on your main point. You say that they're just trying to survive, not control. Do you see groups in the movies that would be content to let things be if the mass of the galaxy voted and said they really liked the Empire or would they work to convince the neutrals that they really shouldn't side with the Empire. The only reference I could think of was the Thrawn books. There, they actively tried to convince everyone that they were good and the Empire was bad. That seemed a lot like control to me. (Not a great reference I admit but the only one I could see that hit on your point).

Sandy

 

::walks into thread carrying her birthday presents::

Whoa! My head hurts as it is! You guys have got to be bored.
""drops presents::
""runs out of thread::

No....more.....thinking.....

 

Well, here's a reference though it might not be a great one. (and I'm working from memory on this but I could find the book it's in somewhere)

The Senator Bel Iblis was working within the system to rally support to stop the Emperor (much before Yavin) along with Senator Bail Organa but Palpatine sent assassins after him. While he was giving a speach on the subject in public, the assassin struck and blew up the building. Killed his family, lots of other top Corolleian officials and other people. The Emperor blamed it on the "rebels" and the Senator went underground and stayed there as a rebel fighting the Empire.

EDIT: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MAYO!!!

 

Would you rather go out fighting or get blasted in an escape pod. They WERE blasting any pod with life signs and that is most likely standard procedure for those situations.

 

True. But why would they need to shoot in the first place? They have plenty of tractor beams. I believe they have at least 10 though I may be mistaken.

There may have been more pods than beams but what about Ion Cannon's then? Disable the pods and use the tractor beams to keep the pods in orbit...<shrug>

Edit: Somehow this is in the wrong thread but that's okay.

 

Happy Birthday Mandy!!!

Gita,

I'd take my chances in the pod. They weren't blasting every pod that left. They were firing at every pod that left. Given the choice between slugging it out against amazingly overwhelming odds (50 to 1 or more???), I'd take the pod. Those things rocketed away at a pretty good clip as I recall. With the pod they only need to miss a couple of times and you're gone. With the troops, they can miss 100 times and still get you.

Sandy

 

::skips in singing Carol of the Bells::

Thank you Sandy and rt.

::trips over a present::

Oops, my bad.

 

Your CR saw my sig and invited me in here. I'm still not sure if this is Australia or Florida.

Anyway, interesting thread. I'll be keeping an eye on it, and I might post my thoughts in more details later.

 

Greetings Thrawn.

Your Bush as the Emporer pic on your profile is in very bad taste. Its not funny at all.

Sandy

 

It's not meant to be funny. I'm making a political statement. It's a free country.

Anyway, back on topic... I believe the Empire was corrupt, but the Rebels used immoral tactics to bring it down.

 

Thrawn,

These boards are not the place for such political statements. I doubt at 18 years old you even have the intelligence or experience to make any valid political statements as you lack the background to even determine what valid politics actually are, unless your expertise at bagging groceries gives you special insight into world politics I don't recognize. However, rather than pointing out what a misguided twit I believe you are I'm publically asking you to please remove the insulting image and keep them confined to your rather wacked out website, which you are allowed to link in your profile. Your "freedom of speech" is out of place here. This is a board about Star Wars, not a medium to voice your dislike of my president. Please be adult enough to recognize that.

Until you do, I for one refuse to converse with someone who uses these boards to spread their Anti-American liberalism just as I'd expect others to point out my shortfall if I used it to air the flaws of Canada.

I am not a board mod but hopefully those who are will read this and take action. I consider your politics to be harassing, inflamatory, and hateful, all of which are in direct violation of this board's terms of service. If you haven't read them, you should do so now.

Sandy

 

Okay, gang. Let's keep things civil in here. If someone posts something you find offensive, please let them know that you find it upsetting by simply saying that you think the comment and/or picture was inappropriate and ask them to take down the picture or edit the comment. If that does not work, contact me or another mod to have them us a look at it. Resorting to heated comments might make things worse. It is okay to disagree with someone, but please keep your comments non-personal and non-insulting, please.

If any of you want to report something you find offensive, please send me (or another mod) a link to the picture and/or post so that I or we can find take care of it as quickly as possible.

Okay, now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

Sandy, have you ever heard of the Senate Floor Forum, also known as the "Bash America" forum? How about the "Bush is a Moron" thread in Your Jedi Council Community? Despite what you say, politics does have a place in the JC, and expressing anti-Bush views is not against the TOS. If it was, the Senate Floor would be a pretty empty place. I am free to post whatever I want in my bio, as long as it isn't against the TOS. Harrassing? To whom? Bush? If Bush ever registers here, and complains about me, then you can consider it harrassing. Until then, you can't. Hateful? It's a picture! You claim to be so pro-Imperial. Why would a comparison between your leader and the leader of the Star Wars faction you love so much upset you so? Also, for the record, the picture is not on "my" whacked-out website. I just found it while doing a Google search for Palpatine.

Now, I suggest you leave me alone before the mods take action against you for harrassing me. Anyway, I'm outta here. It would be a pity if you caught my liberalism disease.

For the record, I removed the picture. It's a real shame that there are people in this world who can't tolerate other people's opinions.

 

Thrawn,

I am well aware of your anti-American views. I've read your postings in other threads today and gained a true feeling of your mindset. Yes, I would call what you present as hate. At a minimum, it is inflamatory. I have discussed this situation with our regional mod and will forward a copy of your latest posting to her and allow her to handle the situation.

Out of respect for her, I'll simply restate that you are being insulting, hateful, and inflamatory. Your actions are in direct violation of the terms of service for this board, something you've chosen to ignore even after you've been warned. I understand you dislike my country and our leaders. I ask that you do nothing further on the Melbourne, Florida board to further discredit yours. Currently, my opinion of anything Canadian is low enough. You are not helping me see anything positive in our neighbor to the north.

As for "leaving you alone", all I personally did was post a response in a public thread (this one) after you abruptly intruded into my hometown board. As far as I am concerned, you are an angry and rather envious Canadian who should restrict himself to the "Bash America" circles that appreciate your ill-informed resentment. If you claim I have done anything more than post in this public thread, you are a liar as well as a hate mongerer.

I am requesting that you be banned from the boards. I believe I have a strong claim given your stated knowledge of the terms of service, frequently inflamtory posts in multiple threads, and willful disregard to follow the rules. If the ban is supported by the mods, you will gain a chance to find a Canadian science fiction film series to enjoy so you won't have to subvert yourself to commenting about American-produced movies.


Sandy

 

Could you just let others have their own opinions.
And what you are doing one is a personnal attack and Mods don't like this kind thing by the way.

 

I have discussed the issue with the RSA of Canada. He is keeping an eye on this thread, and will be working together with your RSA to make sure all parties respect the TOS.

I did not invade your board. I was invited here by your City Rep. I made that clear already.

You flamed me. You called me a twit, and your post was extremely condescending. That is against the TOS. My RSA has told me that I have done nothing wrong. You have expressed a dislike for my country, yet refuse to accept criticism of your own. I could have reported you to one of the many Canadian moderators on this board, but I didn't. We're both adults here, I assume. Let's act like it.

If you want to request that I be banned for posting a few anti-American things here and there, go ahead. I can't and won't stop you. But just know that you'll most likely be laughed at. Anti-Americanism is on the rise throughout the world, and that is reflected on the JC. If you ban me for anti-Americanism, you'll have to ban hundreds more. You'd also have to ban anyone who has ever said anything against any other country on this board, ever. By the time you're finished, there would be hardly anyone left.

Also, about this "hate" that I am allegedly spreading... I'd like to see some examples, please. I havn't been banned in a year. You weren't even a member back then. If my posting habits are what you claim them to be, I wouldn't still be posting here after 2.5 years.

So, here's my suggestion. How about you make an effort to respect my opinion. Do that, and I won't push it in your face. I've already removed the picture. What more do you want? How about I betray my country by saying the pledge of allegiance? Would that help?

This is rediculous. I'm done here. If you want to discuss this further, then you can take it up with my RSA. If you continue to launch personal attacks against me, then I will file a complaint.

Have a nice day.

 

Thrawn,

I'll be blunt. I don't respect your opinions nor do I respect you. I certainly don't consider you to be an adult. You are the legal age to be an adult but I haven't read anything you've written that indicates to me that you are anywhere near what I would consider an adult, intellectually or otherwise. If I fully expressed how little respect I harbor for you and your fellow Candian "experts", who have appointed themselves as the experts on my president and the USA in general, then I truly would be guilty of flaming you.

You want to use your freedom of speech to attack a country and its leaders because you harbor some deep felt resentment. You are an 18-year old grocery bagger who lives in Canada. I'm confounded as to why you spend so much of your effort attacking the leaders of a country in which you aren't even a citizen. You certainly don't have the minimal background to support the claims you make, yet you whine about being harassed when you encounter US citizens who recognize the shallowness of your claims. You then want to claim that your opinions should be equally respected, equally as worthy as US citizens over twice your age, who have lived through the things you've read about in slanted internet postings. Others might accept that. I do not.

Also, you'll note that even your facts on this board are badly skewed. I didn't slander your country nor did I call you a twit. I said that doing either would be inappropriate.

Since politics seems to have become the main point here I'll remove all uncertainty. I didn't hold any anti-Canadian views until people just like you decided it was their self-appointed duty to jump into my face and tell me why they don't like the USA. I respect that you have these viewpoints. Frankly, you are such an insignificant element in my life and the lives of everyone I care about that you simply don't matter. You can file the your fellow anti-Americans "on the rise" in the same category. From where I stand, nobody I know on the Melbourne boards gets into your collective faces and rants about what we hate about your nations, governments, and leaders. That's your business. I'm confounded as to why self-appointed heroes like yourself feel it is their duty to point out what they think the flaws in my country and its leadership might be. Mind your own damn business!

This is my hometown board. I doubt that when/if Art "invited you in" he had any idea as to what your true nature was. As a citizen member of the Melbourne board I'll simply say, go back home and keep your nose out of mine.

You rant profusely that you have freedom of speech and should have your rights respected. Ironically, you are the first to complain when someone else has an opposite opinion. Your arguements claiming you have a right to spread your anti-American views anywhere you want sound hollow and pretty stupid to me. Someone else may have a differing opinon but I doubt they live in Melbourne, Florida. What in the Hell makes you think you have the right or obligation to shove your hatred in my face?

As for what I want, frankly I want you to go away and never slobber on my hometown, state, or country again, either in a virtual sense or in reality. I don't want you to say the Pledge of Allegience to the United States. Pledges from people I personally consider to be worthless are in themselves worthless. Members of this board have spent great portions of their lives defending the USA against all enemies foreign and domestic. I had dinner with one great man tonight whom I respect far more than the entire grouping of "anti-Americans on the rise" you are so proud of. I personally consider the Pledge of Allegience an honorable thing. Having someone like you say it would cheapen it in the extreme and dishonor millions of my fellow citizens, both living and dead. You made a pledge two posts ago that you were "out of here". You came back to rant again and state you were going away a second time. What does it take to finally get rid of you?

I don't recognize your Canadia

 

This has gone on enough. If you can't respect each other's opinions then I have no option other than to close this thread.