The Movie & Television Character Draft 3: Nothin' or Double - congrats, EF

Oscar Conference

Team Sea Slug (2) vs The Galactic Mayhem Misfits (5)

Emmy Conference

Angry Kids with Rocks (2) vs Team Evil Monkey (5)

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TREE!

[hl=green][color=yellow]Oscar Conference[/color][/hl]
Location: [i]Dorian Gray's Library (The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen)[/i]

[color=seagreen]Neo (The Matrix)[/color] vs [color=black]T-1000 (Terminator series) TRUMPED with Adam (Buffyverse)[/color]

[hl=orangered][color=white]Emmy Conference[/color][/hl]
Location: [i]Outer Heavan (Metal Gear Solid)[/i]

[color=darkblue]Minerva McGonagall (Harry Potter) (forfeit)[/color] vs [color=green]The Beast (Buffyverse)[/color][/b]



Neo. Good match, but Neo.

Bleh, I don't want to wait. Oh well.

 

No need to wait. Neo.

And I'll get to a proper counter on that other stuff when I'm less tired. Hey, isn't debate fun, though? Too bad we can't get the GMs to do this more, eh?

 

lulz


Oscar Conference

Team Sea Slug (3) vs The Galactic Mayhem Misfits (5)

Emmy Conference

Angry Kids with Rocks (2) vs Team Evil Monkey (6)

---

TREE!

[hl=green][color=yellow]Oscar Conference[/color][/hl]
Location: [i]Dorian Gray's Library (The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen)[/i]

[color=seagreen]Cam Watanabe [Green Ranger] (Power Rangers: Ninja Storm) *Prepared*[/color] vs [color=black]Chip Thorn [Yellow Ranger] (Power Rangers: Mystic Force) *Prepared*[/color]

[hl=orangered][color=white]Emmy Conference[/color][/hl]
Location: [i]Outer Heavan (Metal Gear Solid)[/i]

[color=darkblue]Nick Russell [Red Mystic Ranger] (Power Rangers: Mystic Force)[/color] vs [color=green]Lord Voldemort (Harry Potter)[/color][/b]



!!!!!!!!!

 

Meh. Both very, very fun matches, but both are also very much clear-cut in my mind.

Cam
Nick

I'll elaborate if need be.

 

Cam's victory is pretty clearcut considering all of his options.

Nick's... not so much in my mind though. lol, sound familiar? I need to research Nick a bit more anyways, I've only really looked at the bare minimum so far, and I really should familiarize myself with him for future reference. Feel free to elaborate in the mean time if you get a chance.

 

This has been said about Nick apparantly...."He is always the first to rush in, using actions before thinking." How is that going to hurt him in this fight? When going up against Voldemort not thinking before acting tends to be a horrible strategy.

I am going to add one more thing. Does a Power Ranger boss tend to have as much intelligence, raw power or proven skill as Voldemort? No. Does it take an entire squad of Power Rangers to defeat not only the end boss, but also the minion he sends in prior to do his/her dirty work? Yes. Do the Rangers usually win their fights against these less than impressive minions on the first try? Even when they have a numeric advantage? No.

When have we ever seen 1 Power Ranger defeat an major villain? Every time I have seen them go up against a major villain it is with a major numerical advantage. Is there any reason to think that a Power Ranger major villain is more impressive than Voldemort (with or without prep)? Hell no.

Surely counter arguments will come, they always do. I however, am done.

 

I...wow. I can't believe I did it again.


Go Team Sea Slug!

 

Please, Shirley, you're tired. Allow me.

We could probably continue this discussion for days, so I'll try to keep this fairly short. I still really really disagree.

Agreed.

You seem to be trying to argue that the incredibly largescale feats of telekinesis that Imhotep has shown are much less impressive than they've been regarded in the past. Which... yeah. He's without any doubt top three Tk user in my mind. Who else is there? You've got John obviously (who I still feel is overrated due to his one-dimensionality), and you might have Willow, although I'm not sure if she's ever shown as much raw power as Imhotep. But in any case, then you have Immy.

I'm not trying to argue that they're less impressive than they've been regarded in the past. They are still on the same level to me. Shifting sand and moving a wave of water are not the same as tilting an entire space station. Speaking of that...

Hell, were you not arguing that John, a far inferior fighter to Imhotep in absolutely every regard with his only small advantage in raw power, was quite easily the most powerful character in a match that featured Glory on the opposition? Somebody with actual skill and loads more experience against a couple of tough little Scooby snacks against a guy who has only known he had any power at all for a few days? See the similarities?

Excuse you? What regards would those be? Because Imhotep has shown what else in regards to the ability to fight that John has not? Glory is not Jason. For one thing, she has no ranged attacks. And how is it that you're still under the impression that John has only known about his powers for a few days? Which part of the five minutes in the movie of Keifer Sutherland appearing in John's childhood flashbacks, teaching him how to use his powers, did you miss? John's, effectively, had these powers his entire life. It shows him remembering that he used them when he was a small child.


John was more of a factor than Glory in spite of the fact that he can get taken in an instant with a single bullet in the back, but immortal Imhotep, generally immune to all physical damage from what we've seen and much more experienced than John, is going to have so much trouble with the Gold Ranger who isn't nearly as incredible as we've been led to believe? Clearly combat experience wasn't a big deal then. We were dealing with brute force.

So, let me get this straight. We're ready to judge someone using bullets(DuPont) as being able to cut down the Scorpion King, someone from the same universe who explicitly cannot be hurt by any means outside of that spear, but when it comes to Imhotep, who has never actually been in a fight in his immortal form, we're going to play the other side of the fence? Where's all this so called immunity coming from? Bullets not hurting him?

And Imhotep has more experience than John? Lifetime of practice aside, John's actually fought someone with powers. Granted, it wasn't a very long fight, and maybe it was a little underwhelming outside of the TK attack that he sliced in half, but at least it was a fight. Imhotep the immortal has had his powers, in total, what, a few weeks? If that? And that's if you count when the guy wasn't even whole. Full Immortal, and we're talking days. Days of experience, and he's supposedly a better fighter and more experienced than John?

Taking into account Adam's appearance on Overdrive, I can say that, even if Zeo is on the same level as Mighty Morphin, and even if Gold Jason is on the same level as Adam(which is knowingly false), then the Gold Ranger is much more impressive than Imhotep, any day of the week.

Making a giant sand storm and a single giant wave, sorry, pales in comparison, if you ask me, next to the kind of power that both John and Gold are capable of, and those are his two biggest feats, and they took massive amounts of concentration.

I don't mean to belabour the point, but I think Imhotep is now being vastly underrated. He's had feats at least on the same radar as Joh

 

Well that's a giant load of words you're shoving into my mouth. Kindly refrain.

I'm tired of this for today. Maybe I'll get to it later, but there's a better chance that I won't, because I can say that in spite of the fact that I'm keeping an open mind for that match, nothing you said there is really going to convince me of a flop.

Let's see what I can do quickly though:

1. Good call on John. That small (lol) fact slipped my mind. I was caught up in the movie storyline, and forgot about the injection. I really need to rewatch Dark City, it was fantastic.

2. I never said Imhotep was more powerful than John. But his feat is about as close to being on the same level of John's as you can get in this draft. It's indeed very powerful. Not John-powerful, but still close.

3. Your argument is bogus. Tk users are always tossing around things that they can't see. Hell, do you honestly think John had every single piece of that city in his line of vision while he was moving it all around? Of course not. These guys very very clearly have extrasensory perception that allows them to see and feel things that aren't directly in their line of sight. There's just no evidence whatsoever that Imhotep's control came from being in contact with the sources; so why in the hell would you bother inventing such a nonsensical theory?

4. Imhotep did show some fighting ability when he was powered down against Rick. Sure O'Connell isn't a gloriously decorated fighter, but he's clearly got some moves and some weight on him. It's not an incredible showing, but it's something, as opposed to what you're arguing, which is, for some reason, that Imhotep has shown nothing. My point is that, at the very least, Imhotep has physical showings of his combat abilities. Something John lacks.

5. Once again, and for the umpteenth time, I'm not arguing that Imhotep is immune to all physical damage. I am arguing, however, that every time we've seen him on screen in the form he'll appear in during fights for this draft, he's been immune to all physical damage. Obviously his opponents from the movies are a farcry from the caliber he'll be facing in this draft, but let's try not to forget that this is the same fella that takes bullets to a chest and keeps walking. He melts into frickin' sand and then reforms his body on a whim. Methinks that you both are either refusing to acknowledge these facts or just forgetting about them. Their usefulness are at the very least on par with the durability feats that the Rangers possess. And once again, these are things that John lacks.

6. lol, let's forget about John now. I'm sorry I brought him up. There were just certain parallels between the two that I felt deserved to be considered.

7. Imhotep lifted those two guards with nothing more than a gesture from what I remember. I guess one of us is remembering wrong.

8. Last point that I haven't brought up yet. Gold Ranger Jason was in earlier episodes than any other Jason's you might imagine. He had a full season of experience as the Red, but at the same time, he was still an infant compared to what he would become. Pointing out future Red Ranger feats (referring to Shurron's Forever Red clip here) seems pointless, considering Jason the Gold Ranger hadn't actually gotten to that point yet.



We're getting away from the main issue now though. I still just don't see how you can get around the fact that, as the Gold Ranger, Jason hasn't given us anything to make me think he can beat Imhotep. And both of you continue to ignore the very valid point that Imhotep could very well take Jason's staff away from him. Again, he's lost it before. He also lost a very powerful key that was given to him from some chick as a keepsake - all it took to wrestle it from him were two guards holding his arms back. I mean, really? Over Imhotep?

Given the time to actually concentrate, maybe, maybe he has the advantage in raw power, but you actuallythink he's going to be able to sit there and summon up that power like he did the previous two times he used it?

This is flat out bewild

 

Be advised, I am a GM and held to no kind of standard in any argument that I put forth, especially concerning other people's characters.


And now I will read your post.


7. Imhotep lifted those two guards with nothing more than a gesture from what I remember. I guess one of us is remembering wrong.

Must be you, because I just watched it last night.


Oh, what the heck, let's just do the whole thing.


2. Wow, they are so not even near close.

3. Actually, there is. What other reason could he possibly have for taking his robe off and wading waist deep into the water? Cause he's a showboat? Yeah, probably that, somewhat, but also, in my opinion, because he's using magic, mostly, and, in my imagination, that magic has more to do with actually controlling water/sand than what you would call TK. It's for my imagination's sake that I invent this theory. And, true, people with TK generally have some sort of extrasensory stuff going on, but it is different with Imhotep, in that he actually seems to be quite out of his head when he's doing it, and there is then a point when he visibly returns to his own body(his eyes stop rolling, etc.). There have been times when he could have used his "TK" to stop several people, yet the only time is when he picks up two people and threw then against each other, not bothering to disarm them either. So, that's just the way I look at it. As it's not explicitly telekinesis, in my mind, my theory is no more nonsensical than your own.

4. I...disagree with that. Sure, he has some muscle, but I would not call what he was doing moves. He was armed, fighting against Rick who had just fought against several mummies, among other things. Whatever. This is not even a point, it's just comparing him to John, which shouldn't have been done in the first place.

5. Except you seem to be. Because every time he has appeared, as you say, in draft form, there has been little to no physical damage taken. A couple of bullets which could be attributed to his sand-like body. I am not forgetting this. You seem to think though, that just because a bullet can go through him, so too can an energy blast and every single hit that comes against him. I happen to disagree(not that it matters, since you seem to think that Imhotep will disarm Jason anyway, something else I happen to disagree with). As even very practiced sand-bodied people get hit(Sandman and Clayface, for instance, who have much more experience than this guy).

6. But they don't, so let's.

7. Must be you, I just watched it last night. He actually looks as though he is picking them up in his hands and hitting them together like that, and he also looks to brace himself a bit.

Bleh boards.

 

Not really sure if you can see that whole thing or not, it seems to be cutting off and I try to edit it but it won't change for me.


8. What? An Infant of what he would become? He has just one more appearance on the other side of Zeo in a single Wild Force episode(Forever Red), and in that episode, he was using INFERIOR powers than his Gold powers(canonically, MMPR < Zeo < Gold). The point that Shirley and I are trying to make is that, while the special effects may not look all that great in MMPR and Zeo, they're actually a bit more impressive than they look. Are you really dismissing this as fact, or are you missing what we are saying?


We're getting away from the main issue now though. I still just don't see how you can get around the fact that, as the Gold Ranger, Jason hasn't given us anything to make me think he can beat Imhotep. And both of you continue to ignore the very valid point that Imhotep could very well take Jason's staff away from him. Again, he's lost it before. He also lost a very powerful key that was given to him from some chick as a keepsake - all it took to wrestle it from him were two guards holding his arms back. I mean, really? Over Imhotep?

What should lead me to believe that Imhotep would disarm anybody? In any case, Jason is still then very fast and is a better fighter, so, in that event, I think he could very well win the staff back without losing the fight in the meantime.

 

Oh, wow. I just remembered something important. In the opening-frickin'-narration of The Mummy, it's specifically stated by the Narrator (what's his name, something something Bay, right?) that if and when Imhotep is revived after receiving that curse, that he would arise a walking plague, blah, blah, blah with "power over the sands". Notice the quotations, because that, my friend, is an exact quote.

And our boy Imhotep was practically immersed in sand when performing the sand wall trick. Similarly did he indeed specifically immerse himself in water to perform the water wall trick. And btw, I also seem to recall (this one I'm not 100% on) that at some point during one of the movies, a comment was made by someone knowledgable about Imhotep that he had control over the elements, and not just sand. And I have no problem with that, since the water control supports that theory. And there is plenty of sand to use around Outer Heaven, surely. But it's no desert, and I'm hardly seeing Imhotep having enough sand available to crush Jason under the weight of it.

Oh, he also does have the power to cause the plagues of Egypt. Unfortunately for him, only one of them, the firey hailstorm, has any shot at affecting Jason at all. And it doesn't seem like something he'd have precision control over. Like I don't think he can summon individual hailstones on a whim and fling them directly at someone. Seems like a huge reach in terms of interpreting his powers.

So no, I think the sand and water wall tricks are absolutely not TK. I can say this with almost complete certainy now.

Imhotep's actual TK feats are indeed nowhere near as impressive. Yes, it does cause him effort to lift and fling those two soldiers. And he hardly tossed them against the wall with enough force to liquify them. Slamming Jason against a wall with that much force with probably do nothing more than tickle him. He did lift up Alex with his TK pretty casually, but it seems anything more than lifting a small child a few feet off the ground causes him a least some strain. And I'm not trying to dismiss Imhotep in any way here. This is just. How. It. Is.

Anyways, there's more about how no mortal weapon can kill Imhotep, so yeah, sword and guns = useless. The golden power staff is hardly a mundane mortal weapon, though.

So that's just what I remembered on this TK debate. I got more stuff to address when I get some more time later.

 

I said stop it!

I'll take a lot of that under consideration. I might well have been hasty in deeming it telekinesis afterall. And if the tk isn't actually the case, then I (and I think we) have been judging Imhotep incorrectly for probably three drafts now. lol

I don't see anything regarding the four elements, but the control over the sands is certainly there. And he does wade in to move the water.

Hmmm...

This is almost too much. Maybe I'll sleep on this one some more. Without those two major Tk feats, Imhotep's stock does go down quite a bit in my mind, especially considering the location.




Then again, Jason's stock is still a good bit lower in my mind than in both of yours. Still, he's certainly got the speed and skill to dance around the less-spectacular-than-before Imhotep. I'm still not totally sold on his power, but enough hits could eventually take down Imhotep, both from fists and staff. Bleh.

 

I will not stop it! In fact, I just found something else. After I eat, it will be made known.

 

Wiki isn't really specific about what Nick can do other than a fire spell. But Voldemort is damn powerful, so unless there are serious and convincing arguments to the contrary, I'm voting for Voldy.

 

Okay, so now I guess since you've come around on the TK thing, I don't really have to defend some of the earlier decisions I made that you called out this morning, right? We're good there, more or less? I mean, I'll still counter that stuff if you want.

Anyways, first lemme repost the Green Ranger Tommy vs. Red Ranger Jason fight that came up when those two fought earlier. That fight is important to the Imhotep match for a few reasons.

First, notice how Jason takes a blast from the dragon knife flute thing (not to mention combined with the power of an additional sword) towards the start of the fight? Notice how he pops right back up and keeps fighting? Okay, Now when you see what I'm gonna show you here in a bit, you'll realize just how impressive it is that he's able to do that.

Now also look at how Jason wins that. Through sheer determination and skill, he defeats an opponent of superior power who helped him out some by being just a bit too cocky and overconfident. Sound like something that might repeat itself against Imhotep? Well, it should. Either that, or you didn't watch the same Mummy movies everyone else did. And again, this history of coming out on top and beating the odds is something Jason has a very, very long history of.

But that stuff aside, what needs to be seen is the last 30 seconds or so of this clip.

You don't wanna accept that the golden power staff is significantly more powerful than Chip's lightning crossbow, which managed to topple a mountain-sized monster in this clip? That's fine. The two Rangers are so far removed from eachother that a direct comparison is pretty tough. But what is absolutely not debatable is that the golden power staff is a good deal more powerful than Tommy's dragon dagger. And if you're seriously gonna continue to pretend that Imhotep would not be seriously hurt by magical energy of that magnitude (and I'm talking about the dagger's blast here, not the more powerful staff), then... I give up.

Beating a dead horse here, but Gold Ranger Jason >> Red Ranger Jason. In every possible way that he can be better, he is. Durability, strength, speed, raw power, experience, everything. And the gap really is that significant. Even if Jason were just the plain ol' Red Zeo Ranger, he would be better. Better, stronger... better. But as has been stated again and again, the Gold powers are easily the best of that show. The power staff's blasts will be even more potent than those of the dragon dagger's, which should already be more than enough to cause Imhotep a hurtin'. So even if he were less powerful, Jason's skill and determination have proven to be able to carry him to victory against stronger opponents. And now... we're really still going to pretend he's the lesser of the two in this match in terms of power? With the Gold powers, no, he just simply is not weaker. More and more I'm becoming convinced that this match isn't nearly as close as I originally said it was, and I don't know how it's still even in doubt. Honestly, at this point, it's starting to look like nothing more than stubborn Ranger-hate. So... I dunno, man.

EDIT: *sigh* Oh, I'll get to Nick. Just... *sigh* Yes, Voldy is damned powerful. But if we're using that measurement of power, then Nick is ***damned powerful. And he has waaaaaaaaayyyy more than a simple fire spell. I just wish two of our final four GMs weren't MIA so that I don't have to do all this.

Actually, we've been debating specifically with Zizz, but you're a judge here too. Has any of this swayed your Imhotep decision?

 

You guys were really busy.

 

Haven't had a chance to look at the videos yet. The arguments alone . . . eh, I'm on the edge. You guys continue arguing while I think

 

I think Jason beat Goldar or however you spell it one on one and not morphed to save Tommy?

Well I guess he didn't "beat" him, but he came pretty close

 

Here's the frickin' thing with ALL of that Shurron: Jason doesn't SHOW any power with his staff as the Gold Ranger. Period.

But first, a quick question: How exactly do we know that the Golden Staff is more powerful than the Green Dagger? More to the point, when has Jason ever shown anything with the staff on the level of that blast from Tommy? Answer: never. And you can't even use the excuse of less than stellar special effects, because the clip you just busted out was from the original MMPR, a season before Zeo. Trey has done some more impressive things with the staff, sure - but we aren't arguing for Trey. And simultaneously, we aren't arguing for the damn staff. It's an important part of the match, but its importance sure as hell doesn't outweigh the importance of the Gold Ranger himself. We're arguing for Jason here, not some stupid lame artifact that he doesn't use all that much anyways.

And that really brings me to my main point, even after all this time - Jason's ACTUAL FEATS don't stack up. You can talk about how powerful Jason should be with the Golden Staff all you want, but the point remains that he isn't that powerful. I mean, tell me, what blasts are you referring to? The only, and I mean ONLY, feat you could be talking about is the quick run through with the lightning. That's it. Whenever Jason actually fired an energy blast from his staff, it was with all the other Rangers, and his beam was identical in strength to theirs. So when you say something like this:

The power staff's blasts will be even more potent than those of the dragon dagger's

It's based on absolutely nothing more than pure unadulterated speculation, without much more than a shred of evidence to back it up. That's my problem. Again, you guys are trying to argue how powerful Jason should be with the staff, as opposed to how powerful he is. And really, what's more important here?




But that's just Jason. That has some bearing on the match, but not as much as it would've yesterday before I (we?) came to the realization that Imhotep doesn't have as much Tk as I (we?) thought he did. And out of curiosity, were you also under the impression that it was telekinesis? Because I can swear that its been referred to by the general name of "tk" dozens of times, throughout this draft and in those prior, without anybody bringing up the points you and EF so handily decided to share in the past two days.

But that's beside the point. I am going to flop. Immy can still control the sands, but clearly the location isn't ideal for his much more specific than originally thought powers. I think that, without those two very large scale feats, he's going to have a heck of a time actually damaging Jason. Because if there's one thing I haven't doubted about Mr. Goldmember during this ridiculous series of arguments, it's his durability. With only some sand and small doses of tk here and there, Immy isn't going to be able to do much. And while I still believe that Jason's raw power is being overrated with that staff of his, he's still got enough juice in hand to hand combat, with the few displays of energy that he gave us in Zeo, to defeat the Mummy. Great match still, and certainly in doubt, but I officially jump the shark over to Jason.

And now I wait to download Mystic Force so I can really get a good glimpse of exactly what Sir Nicholas is all about. Voldy is a tough customer. Plus he's got some wild ass shields.

 

Well, as I've yet to face him, and as he really hasn't had that tough of a schedule that I have noticed so far, I didn't really pick up on anything regarding exactly how powerful you though his TK was. I've always put it down to magic/some kind of control over the elements, given that he also turns himself into sand. This thinking was especially solidified for me with the release of the newest Mummy, and Jet Li's character having power over the elements. To me it was always somewhat related.


As for this bit:

The power staff's blasts will be even more potent than those of the dragon dagger's

It's based on absolutely nothing more than pure unadulterated speculation, without much more than a shred of evidence to back it up. That's my problem. Again, you guys are trying to argue how powerful Jason should be with the staff, as opposed to how powerful he is. And really, what's more important here?


It's based on the fact that Zeo is a direct power upgrade to MMPR, unlike with other seasons. Zeo is what they needed to become powerful enough to defeat the newest, more powerful villain(including Tommy, who had actually already gotten an upgrade past green when he went white, making his Red Zeo powers even more powerful than that). That part isn't speculation. The Zeo rangers are, straight up, just more powerful than the MMPR. So, even if Jason is only shooting blasts on par with the Zeo Rangers, those are still more powerful than anything seen in MMPR.

 

Exactly that.

And you seem to be falling right back into the trap of SFX bias. We just went over this stuff. That staff and its attacks would be so much more impressive-looking in a more current episode. This has been proven. Unfortunately, we just can't know exactly how much more. And while that is a factor, you're right back to writing him off as being not as powerful as other top-tier guys just because they didn't have the budget at the time to show us what he could really do.

Maybe they never showed the power staff toppling or even outright beating a giant-sized monster because the enemies in Zeo were just that powerful. I dunno why, really. But even so, over the course of all the Ranger shows, a Ranger hurting a giant-sized monster without a zord is extremely rare. As far as I've been able to find, you wouldn't need more than two hands to count every single instance in which that's ever happened (I actually was originally under the impression that Conner chucking that monster with one hand was the only example of it happening). And one of those came from Chip, who, by all other accounts, is nothing more than an average Ranger in every respect. But even an average Ranger is a powerhouse in this draft, which I've trying to hammer home for ages now.

Even rarer is a Ranger straight-up destroying (not just hurting) a giant monster without a zord. Pretty sure that's happened only twice. And while both Rangers that have done that should be up there in the top-tier, neither one would get my vote as the most powerful Ranger out there. That'd still be Conner.

Anyways, you shouldn't have to watch very far into Mystic Force for Nick awesomeness. Happens pretty much by the end of the second episode. And that stuff doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

 

I really don't get it. I have, at the least, posted a couple of videos for Nick, myself. I know others have too. I thought we were past the "he can shot fireball" by now.

 

Yeah, I know. Whatever.

Also when I talk about the "blasts" of the staff, this is what I mean.

 

If you did it for this round, I missed them in the midst of the Jason/Imhotep debate. If you posted them for previous matches, well, I wasn't judging then or agreed or whatever without watching.