Theory on why older fans love the OT, have some issues with the PT

Just as someone said earlier, it's nice to see people voice their opinions on this matter without it turning into a flame war.

I was 5 in 1977. My Dad took me to see ANH in the theater and I couldn't stop talking about it. Shortly after came toy landspeeders, action figures, and TIE fighters all over the house. I saw ESB and ROTJ on release day as well in '80 and '83.

I still watch the OT and recapture a little of that magic I felt when I was a kid. I don't watch the PT expecting to recapture or re-live anything because they're different movies telling a different story.

I think what happened was people built this up in their minds for 16 years and it simply didn't live up to what THEY thought it should be. I knew for many years after ROTJ that if any movies were going to be made, they were going to be about how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader. I'd heard that the whole saga was about the rise, fall, and final redemption. Rather than comparing my imagination to what was actually on film I simply kept an open mind and went with what was there.

The PT has it's flaws, but watching the OT, it has it's own too.

I've heard people make comments about Anakin being whiny and "How does this guy become Darth Vader?". Well, Luke in ANH is roughly the same age as Anakin in AOTC and he's just as whiny. "But, I was going to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters!!" "Aww, Biggs is right. I'm never gonna get out of here!" How does this guy become a Jedi strong enough to bring his father back from the dark side and help destroy the Emporer? You have to watch and find out.

My least favorite of the OT is ROTJ. Simply because I never liked the Ewoks. Even as an 11 year old I thought they were kind of dumb. But, if you put on ROTJ I'll gladly sit through "yub, yub!" to see those amazing scenes with the Emporer, Luke, and Vader.

Same thing with TPM and AOTC. They aren't perfect, but they've got some moments that still make you feel like a kid again (Palpatine watching the Clone Army assemble with the Imperial March playing). At least they do for me.

They're movies! Put them on and escape. If you look at the OT with the same eyes as you do the PT, you'll find just as many flaws, I think.

I've rambled long enough, but keep in mind we're watching movies that are done by a guy who's heavily influenced by Saturday morning serials of Flash Gordon. He's writing his own versions of those with other influences mixed in. Take it for what it's worth and have a good time!

 

I think what happened was people built this up in their minds for 16 years and it simply didn't live up to what THEY thought it should be.

This is a pretty common argument, but I don't think it's true. I didn't "build up" anything in my mind because I had no idea what was going to happen in Episode I (except that it somehow involved Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi). And I thought, in May of '99, TPM was pretty average. Now, I think even less of it.

Furthermore, it's not 16 years, more like 5. It was around 1994 that Lucas confirmed he was working on the prequels, right? For most people (read: casual or non-Star Wars fans) it wasn't "preconceived notions"; it was years of hype. It was years of expecting a movie on the level of the original Star Wars. TPM didn't deliver, and maybe it could never have. But bad acting and lame CG antics certainly didn't help.

 

5150 is pretty much right there for me.

I'm a bit older, & was 15 when Star Wars came out.

I saw it when it first came out & the theatre was empty; I loved it.

I saw the other 2 OT's & liked them less than ANH, yet liked the story as a whole. But, I could see "The Search For More Money" as Mel Brooks says in Space Balls.

Many years passed. GL put the OT back in the theatres on the 20th anniversary & I took my oldest daughter, about 7 or 8 at the time. We enjoyed them tremendously. I hadn't seen lines like that at a movie since, uh Star Wars.

Then, GL put the original out to TV stations in preperation for TPM. I taped ANH off of TBS & my younger daughter, 4 started watching it over & over & over. So, I got her the SE for her 5th birthday, & we watched them over & over & over.

I found I was seeing them in a new, more 'complete' light & enjoyed the whole story much more.

The Phantom Menace came out, & I found I wanted to watch the OT more to see the little bits of information hinted at in it to help see what was going on in TPM.

I love the whole 5 of them.
I particularly like seeing a human being who is pretty much just like you & me & not just the robotic monster of evil we know in the OT as Darth Vader......

So, you won't hear me complaining about the PT vs the OT. It's all one story to me anyhow.

I think the Ewoks are just as lame as Jar-Jar Binks, & Qui-Gon Jinn is just as noble as Old Ben Kenobi.........

 

PT doesnt have the quality of the OT (except ROTJ). Its more visual, less acting oriented, the designs are awful (TPM fighters, the clone troopers, etc), the acting and dialogue is bad, it has no "epic" feeling: its more like star politics (SP) instead of star wars (SW), jar jar SUCKS, etc, etc.

 

Another place the PT failed to live up to people's expectations is where people exepected to see things from the books and had these huge, built up preconseptions.

I used to be a big fan of the books but after the PT started coming out I looked at them more critically. I believe that uncle George has a vision but to many people can't follow that vision now, because their vision has been poisoned by the books.

 

I don't think the books were a negative thing, in fact the Thrawn trilogy rekindled a fire and interest in Star Wars and are amazingly great books. It all comes down to the fact that the PT lacks all heart and soul. TPM was one big computer generated piece of bantha poodoo, and AOTC while infinitely better than TPM deserved only a 6 out of 10, IMO. (with the OT getting all 10's)

I do agree with the "older fan" generalization however. I'm 29 and grew up with the OT. I have posted several times about how the OT will live on while the PT will fade away, and it's true. Unless Episode III really comes through, which I have a feeling it won't, the PT doesn't share any of the magic or love of Star Wars, other than the name.

.v.

 

Another big difference is that when I was a kid, I didn't need explanations. I didn't need to know WHY Obi-Wan dissappeared when he died. Didn't need to know WHY Darth Vader was so mean. I didn't need to know WHY the galaxy was in turmoil. I just accepted all these things the way just about any other kid would. Now, with the PT George is trying to explain all this stuff that, back in 77, didn't need explaining, and now it just seems like too much exposition.

 

Agreed. By default, the PT must devote more time to the political situation of the galaxy. Herein, I think, lies another problem many have with the PT. Please don't take this as snobbish, I don't want it to come off that way. But I believe that overall the Prequel episodes are more intelligent films that the OT. The OT may be better scripted and better acted in certain parts, but it is overall much simpler than the PT. I think an astute knowledge of three things is needed to fully appreciate the prequels: history, politics, and literature. The corruption and subsequent collapse of the Republic mirrors the many instances in history when democracies/Republics became dictatorships, such as in ancient Rome and post World War I Germany. It even holds implications for our own American Republic, which is only just over 200 years old, very young by historical standards. Who knows what the future may hold for us? I think people who are not interested in history may have no idea why Lucas is devoting any time to this Republic thing and don't understand why they should care about it. The scene in AOTC where Palpatine overlooks the Clone army is so much more powerful when you think of how every tyrant in history has always used, and needed, an armed force to maintain his grip on power. I've said this before, and I am not indicating any particular person here, but there are people out there who don't even understand that the Republic becomes the Empire. When the Republic, "the good guys," starts doing some shady things, they get all confused. When Stormtroopers, the "bad guys" from the OT, fight alongside the Jedi, they get all confused. Lastly, I think an appreciation of drama, specifically tragedy, is needed. Anakin is a good-hearted man, but something - is it circumstance, genetics, bad luck, what? - causes him to lose his way, and the man who supposedly will be a hero and fulfill a prophecy becomes a vicious murderer. But then, at the very end, after so many years, he pulls through in the end- he DOES fulfill the prophecy. But he was only able to do it because his son would not give up on him. I think it's a great, very inspiring tale. This is the little variation Lucas throws into the tragic model. Although the tragic hero dies, he dies at peace, knowing he has done his best to set things straight. Sorry for droning on so long, but I think that a lot of these smarta$$ professional critics don't like the PT because, frankly, it goes over their heads. Again, this is not to say that ALL PT detractors don't like the films because they don't understand them. Like I said before, I've heard criticism from many fair-minded and intelligent people who understand the PT but have other issues with it, and I respect that. But I sometimes get annoyed when people critique the movies out of ignorance.

 

Very well said, Deuspater. For an example of an intelligent PT detractor, go to this web site: www.aslan.demon.co.uk/mask-of-god.htm

Actually, I am not so sure this guy hates the prequels. He has issues with it, but he is a lot easier on it than other detractors are. He believes people are too hard on Jar Jar, and he does not believe the dialogue is bad. He doesnt really give a clear cut opinion on whether he likes them overall, but he definately has issues with it and sees some flaws. He might even like TPM better than AOTC, b/c he identified more with 10 year old Anakin than he did with 20 yearold Anakin. It's a very enjoyable read, and he has some interesting ideas. I strongly advise reading this b/c you might learn something new about the entire saga and the prequels. I wish the film critics had written as well as this guy did. Even though this guy finds fault with the prequels, I think you will find that his article proves that the prequels are not really inferior, but are just a matter of preference. For you LOTR fans, he devotes an entire section to the bashing of TTT.

 

I was just on that page you pointed me to, rpeugh. The guy has some interesting stuff to say, but he still displays this attitude about the films that really irks me - mainly, that he knows all there is to know about movies, and how he arbitrarily cuts down parts of the films with no real explanation as to why they're so bad. He calls the idea that Anakin was conceived by the force a horrible scripting mistake. Why? I just don't get it. Personally, I think the biggest problem is that the Prequel detractors have a closed mind. Also, I think they must realize that Lucas is making these films to be seen 1-6. The OT is no so sacred in Lucas' mind as it is to some of its fans.

 

Alot of why (I think) people are more inclined to be critical of PT is simply because the idea of a new trilogy (by the same man) being equal to films (many of us) would tarnish the "reputation" of one of OUR favorite childhood memories.

I'm not saying the neither the PT, OT, or entire sage (when finished) will be "the perfect movie"...it's just not possible. I've gone in to TPM and AOTC, with as few expectations about what "I want" to see...but rather, "OK George, tell me the rest of your tale"..."How does everything we know in OT come to be through PT?"

You must un-learn, what you have learned

 

I think it's a very simple reason. The OT films are better because Lucas was more concerned with the story rather than all the CGI bells and whistles of the PT. Sure, it's all SW, but the OT just feels different from the PT.

 

I agree Chewsocka, that the PT feels very different from the OT in a very big way. I think Lucas has a made conscious decision to do it that way - and this has alienated many people. I think the PT takes more time and attention to appreciate. It is very subtle in some ways, with many layers of symbolism. But I would disagree that the story is no good. I think the plot going on in AOTC is very interesting, what with Palpatine gaining his special powers, the stormtroopers and Imperial Navy created, etc. Rather than just copy the OT, Lucas has made the PT in a way that it will smoothly move into the OT and create one, cohesive, 6-part saga. Since the PT is the beginning, and the OT is the end, by definition they must be different.

 

I always loved the original Star Wars movies, but truth be told, I was always more of a Star Trek fan, so I guess those (particularly the early films) are what I felt the most "magic" from in my youth, and that is why I'm inclined to strongly dislike the newer Trek films because they aren't even shadows of the older ones from the '80's. Maybe because I never felt that strongly attached to the OT, I was more likely to accept the Prequels for what they really are, because my mind was not influenced by preconceptions caused by idolising something that shouldn't be idolised, because it is something made my a person not a god.

Now, I actually prefer the Lucas-directed Star Wars movies to the non-Lucas-directed ones. I don't know why, it just happened that way.

-JDR.

 

"This is the best defense of TPM ever. He specifically defends the acting and dialogue very well. After I read it, I liked TPM even more."

I have to tell you that, while I understand what you're saying, the fact is that if it takes an essay (written after the fact) to make TPM a good movie, then Lucas didn't do a good job to begin with. He has admitted to being a "visual" story-teller, and he has focused far too much on the visuals at the expense of good writing (perhaps in order to compensate for it.)

" Also, I think the CGI is used as a short-cut in many places, rather than a tool to create what would otherwise be impossible. CGI looks too sterile."

Exactly. Everything in the OT looks used, and real. This was deliberate attempt on Lucas' part to impart a sense of "reality", and it gives the ships, people, and backgrounds far more character than any in the PT. I prefer the dinged-up OT C3PO to the "Pretty" PT C3PO. Even in TPM, his innards were very clean and well-organized.

It's like watching an old 50's science-fiction movie, where the background is perfect in all respects, and the actors' hair is always perfect. It's beyond corny, and annoyingly disracting.

Consider the Star Trek sets. The original Star Trek series had futuristic, yet funtional, utilitarian sets. Nothing really stuck out, and everything in the ship made sense.

Then we get to The Next Generation, and the bridge looks like a 70's lounge with plush interior, and a big wooden beam. It's like a super-mini-van. There's pretty lights, and big comfortable rooms, like a posh hotel in space. They are just walking around in big sets, not a "spaceship."

Enterprise got back to the basics. The ship has a great layout, the design is simple and functional, and you really get a sense of what the characters feel like when they are in the ship. Rather than being visually distracting, the ship gives a background sense of realism and authenticity to the story.

The OT looked great without computers, and I'll take matte-paintings any day over the PT's CGI "backgrounds." When Lucas uses computers for droids, gungans, and troopers, I can understand that. When his actors are responding to a completely blue room, it shows in the acting. All the actors give "flat" portrayals, despite fantastic work in other films.

"In the PT, we are shown what the Jedi are and what kind of powers they have. In the OT, this is all explained for those who hasn´t already got it. The PT is a great introduction! "

The OT gives a far better sense and understanding of the Force than the PT does. The PT is all about "seeing" the Jedi in action, and yet the OT is all about "understanding" the Jedi Order? This is all wrong.

" Many people try to say that he's a great actor and to prove it, they cite Life As A House as a good example of his work. However, in that the character he portrays is very simple without a lot of complexity, unlike Anakin. Anakin is a character with a lot of things going on inside his head (and with his hormones) and Hayden simply doesn't have the skills to effectively portray them."

I thought Hayden was good in this film, but his character deliberately hides a lot of feelings. I agree that Hayden can be a bit "wooden", but it was perfect for Life as a House. It doesn't work for the PT.

"And ROTJ and TPM gets the most negative feed back because of the Ewoks, Jar Jar, and Gungans."

I don't have a huge problem with the ewoks, and the Gungans actually weren't fleshed-out enough (when you consider the implied political "misunderstandings" of TPM) but Jar Jar sticks out like a sore thumb. All the other characters have a reason for being there, but Jar Jar is simply eye-candy. You could replace him with anything else, and still have the same film. Chewbacca's behavior is very distinct, as well as his friendship with Han. Jabba had a very imposing presence. Even Watto had more believable mannerisms and delivery than Jar Jar. Jar Jar just walks around, talks stupid, and sticks his tongue out. I would love t

 

I will definitely admit to a bit of CG overkill in the PT. But think of it this way. Just as the OT effects are very good in some parts, there are some really bad examples of it, like the Rancor scene effects. Conversely, just as there is some CG overkill in the PT, there are some instances where CG is used awesomely (Coruscant, clone battle). So I think it evens out. But I will never unerstand the vitriol with which some people attack the PT. For instance, E!online just did a list of the ten worst movie sequels ever, and the Phantom Menace was listed as number 1. That's just ludicrous, in my humble opinion. I have to say, in general, I am really starting to hate film critics. By the way, just have to ask this, did anyone see Old School? Funny as hell.

 

"Just as the OT effects are very good in some parts, there are some really bad examples of it, like the Rancor scene effects."

Unfortunately, this scene and the "snowspeeder" scenes in ESB are examples of cutting-edge technology that looks good onscreen, but translates poorly on the small screen.

The technology was pushed to its limit to look as "realistic" as possible, while CGI effects are effortlessly made to look as "pretty" as possible. Lucas could have cheated in so many ways in the OT, but instead created his own company to make the effects that no one else could. Now, he's just letting computers do all the work.

 

MeBeJedi, do you mean these effects looked good on a movie theater screen but for some reason not on a television screen? Why would that be?

 

The matte lines are not as visible on a large screen as they are on a small screen.

 

Yes your right Deuspater, there are places where that Aslan article irratates me too. He makes very interesting and itelligent conclusions, but I dont agree with his opinion on his conclusions, and I dont like how he expresses those opinions b/c he makes them sound like fact.

One thing you mentioned was how he talked about how Anakin being the sone of the Force was a terrible mistake in the script writing. And then he didnt give a reason for it. First of all, Anakin is NOT the son of the FORCE. He is the son of the MIDICLORIANS! Midiclorians are not the force!! Bashers say they understand that, but their language proves otherwise. I will admit that making Anakin the chosen one, the son of the midiclorians, was not necessary. But on the same token, you could say that Vader being Luke's father was not neccessary. But you know what? I think Vader being Luke's father made the story far more interesting and engaging. Same thing with Anakin being the chosen one. I like this idea, b/c it creates that idea of one with very high expectations. And then tragically, he does not measure up to them. Its more tragic that way. More Magical. More Epic. I like to imagine Anakin as a fetus, when the midiclorians were creating him bit by bit. After awhile, you see this magical, peaceful looking figure wrapped in his fetal position. How beautiful ! I say. So tragic that this miracle of a creature will fall from his grace. Oh, and I think it is a mistake to go comparing him to a Christ figure. Just because Christ was born from a virgin also, it means we should compare Anakin to Christ?

Now, the thing I did like about the Aslan article is that he pinned down the most central reason of why the prequels have divided the SW fanbase:

The Aslan article lists a portion of the THE ADVENTURES OF THE STARKILLER, one of the very early drafts of episode 4.

>>>>>In another time, long before the Empire, and before the Republic had been formed, a holy man called the Skywalker became aware of a powerful energy field which he beleived influenced the destiny of all living creatures...after much study, he was able to know the force, and it communicated with him. He came to see things in a new way. His 'aura' and powers grew very strong. The Skywalker brought a new life to the people of his system, and became one of the founders of the Republic Galactic...As you know, the 'Force of others' has two halves, Ashla, the good, and Bogan, the paraforce or evil part. Fortunately, Skywalker came to know the good half and was able to resist the paraforce, but he realized if he tought others the way of the Ashla, some, with less strengh, might come to know Bogan, the Dark Side, and bring un-thinkable suffering to the Universe. For this reason, the Skywalker entrusted the secret of THE FORCE only to his twelve children, and they in turn passed on the knowledge only to thier children, who became known as the Jedi Bendu of the Ashla: 'the servants of the force'. For thousands of years, they brought peace and justice to the galaxy. At one time there were several hundred Jedi families, but now there are only two or three.<<<<<<<<<

Here is the equivalent passage from the finished draft of episode 4, as cited by the Aslan article:

>>>>>>The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds, penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic, before the dark times, before the Empire.<<<<<<<

The Aslan article claims that the prequels have been more like the former of these two passages(a big example are the midiclorians). And I think he definately has a terrific point with that. But then He states that the change from the first passage to the second passage is an "obvious improvement, because "by saying nothing, the second version suggests everything."

Well, that's his OPINION. That's not a FACT. Some people like hearing all that extra detail. Personally, I like both versions. Maybe GL was just trying

 

You really have to pay attention to the prequel movies to enjoy them. You have to stay mindful while watching them too. You cant really watch them if your tired. You cant watch them with about 10 or 20 other people. However, you can do those types of things with the OT and still enjoy it. That is why I am not surprised when casual fans say they dont like the PT, and I dont fault them for that.

That's quite an assumption of those who do not like the PT. I've been accused many times of over-thinking/over-analyzing the films, which would imply that I'm very mindful of the details when watching the films, so your "explanation" clearly doesn't apply to me.

"I do think you have to be a SW fan to love and appreciate the prequels. But I was stunned and flabbergasted that a lot of SW fans didnt like the prequels either."

Do you imply that "appreciating the PT" is required to be a fan? I recently went through the trouble and money of purchasing the OT on laserdisc. If this does not make me a SW fan, then perhaps you need to rethink your criteria. I think it's clear by your second sentence that what you believe clearly doesn't align with reality.

"I just cant understand how a SW fan does not like the prequels."
"its all about PREFERENCES."

Hope that makes it clear.

"But I think if they just got rid of those obssessive attachments that they have to certain aspects of the OT, they would realize there is something so beautiful and compelling about the PT."

What aspects might you be referring to? BTW, your "beautiful and compelling" line could be construed as obsessive as well. Do you know why I prefer the OT?

"For me, the PT is every bit as good as the OT. "

Perhaps, but does that make them exactly the same? Is each trilogy every bit as good as the other for the same exact reasons? Do you imply that there is nothing beautiful and compelling and unique about the OT as well?

Again..."its all about PREFERENCES."....although, you seem to be "confusing our lack of enjoyment with the PT with soulessness."

Get over yourself. Your "cleverly hidden" insults are a joke.

 

MeBeJedi, I don't think repeugh was trying to be arrogant. Please, I don't want this thread to turn into one of those in which people trade personal insults over something as trivial as movies. That is one of the more unattractive features of these forums that I often see. I'm not saying you're at fault, MeBeJedi, I just want to nip it in the bud before it starts. I've seen it get out of hand a million times before. These forums should be fun, first and foremost.

Just one other point. I never had a big problem with the midichlorians. I just saw them as a biological/genetic way of explaining why some people are strong in the Force and others aren't.

 

>>>>>>>That's quite an assumption of those who do not like the PT. I've been accused many times of overthingking/overanalyzing the films, which would imply that I'm very mindful of the details when watching the films, so your "explanation" clearly does not apply to me.<<<<<<<<

Good for you. I find it odd that anyone would be accused of overanalyzing/overthinking the films. To say that anyone overthinks the films is a weak argument. It is very difficult to refrain from generalizing people who do not like the PT. They all have different reasons for hating it. The Basher's Sanctuary has a rediculous amount of pages because the Bashers disagree amongst each other what was bad about the movies, and some think AOTC was great and only TPM was terrible, others of them think both were terrible. But all I ever seem to hear from a lot of them is "too much politcs, too much exposition, flat characters, flat acting." There are some people who just decided to hate TPM when they saw the politics in the opening crawl. "Uhhhh, this doesnt sound like a SW movie, this sucks...."

>>>>>Do you imply that "appreciating the PT" is required to be a fan?<<<<<<<<

I didnt say that. I said you have to be a fan to like and appreciate the PT. There is a difference. Just because you are a SW fan though, it doesnt mean you will like it. But I would think that SW fans have a greater chance at liking them than casual fans.

(a quote from my past post)- I just cannot understand how a SW fan does not like the prequels.
>>>>>>>>Its all about PREFERENCES<<<<<<<<<

Well, yes it is about preferences. And I cannot understand how a SW fan would PREFER to veiw the prequels as inferior. Am I not allowed to wonder why this is? Understand that I do not think someone is screwed up just because he thinks the PT is worse than the OT. I hope that makes it VERY CLEAR.

>>>>>What aspects might you be referring too? Your "beautiful and compelling" line could be constued as obssessive as well. <<<<<

Well yes maybe that line is obssessive. So what? I wasn't trying to be insulting by the word obssessive. Its just that I find a lot of people getting mad, because they dont see Obiwan as "reckless" (well actually, we do get to see that, its just done very subtley.)But even if we didnt get to see that, would that be such a big deal? And we dont need to know why Obiwan knows that Mos Eisley is full of scum and villainy. THere are people who wanted the PT to be axactly like the OT. That's what I mean about obssessive attachments to the OT. A lot of them seem to be disregarding the PT just because it is different and is not explaining every single little thing in the OT. If you are not one of those people, good for you. Like I said, it is difficult to refrain from generalizing people who dont like the films.

>>>>Do you imply that there is nothing beautiful and compelling and unique about the OT as well?<<<<<<<<<

I didnt say that either. I love the OT just as much as the PT. It's just that the PT requires a lot more of my attention and defense.

>>>>>>>Get over yourself. Your "cleverly hidden" insults are a joke.<<<<<<<<

I shall quote Abraham Lincoln. "In order to aviod criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."

 

Please, guys, I beg you, don't start doing this.

 

Get over yourself. Your "cleverly hidden" insults are a joke.

You mean as opposed to your blatant insults, like those who like the PT prefer style over substance and don't know what a good movie is?