Tired of NJO

Daeshara'cor: Now there's another example of a just introduced Jedi character whose death lacked emotional depth. Why? Because her development in Ruin wasn't enough for me to come to care for her.

Same thing for Ikrit. For those readers who had no previous knowledge of his existence, his death lacked the emotional impact it was supposed to represent to Anakin.

If the Wurth Skidder example had been followed, then all readers (not just the JJK readers) might have felt something at the death of Ikrit.

 

Dewlanna--

Ani, I'd have the same objection if a computer game character, a YJK character, a WEG character or a comicbook character was just plopped in. Conquest is (supposedly) an adult book, the only characters that the reader should be expected to know anything about are characters from the movies and from other adult books. Have I said this clearly enough for you to understand yet? It's not that he's from a kids' book, it's that he's NOT from the same medium as the book in which he plays a pivotal role.

Yes, YOU would have that objection, Dewlanna. I understand your point well enough. Now sit back and try to understand mine.

Did you see my posts from last night? ANYONE can develop her own standards using her own rationale. That was the reason I listed ten different standards, each with its own explanation.

Nothing makes your standards more valid, or less arbitrary, than those of any other reader's. Almost anyone can develop a rationale that is quite valid from a certain point of view.

For example, I read comics, adult books, and juvenile books. I don't read materials for games, at least not to the same degree. I can see good reasons for differentiating readers from gamers, and not having too many Keyan Farlanders and Kyle Katarns migrating their way into comics or books (excepting those few books and comics that are direct game tie-ins).

Or I could simply look at the NJO as a series that should stand by itself. From that perspective, any character invented outside of the NJO is just "plopped in." I could insist, as a standard, upon build-ups for all characters not introduced in the NJO, and who aren't part of the central cast, such as Talon Karrde, Corran Horn, Cilghal, and Borsk Fey'la. That's a tighter standard than the one you have developed, and probably makes more sense from a creative standpoint.

I can see no reason for choosing your standard over any other because, simply put, there is nothing special about it.

Try a few questions:

On what basis do you choose coming from the same medium as your standard?

Why is that preferable to, say, coming from the same series of books (a tighter standard)?

Or coming from books by the same publisher (also a tighter standard)?

Why are adult books a separate medium from kids' books?

 

Jade's Fire abuses the community...
"Finally, for all the thick skulls out there, I don't think I've seen anyone say that the JJK charcters shouldn't be in the NJO..."

And yet Dewlanna clarifies her point for the nth time...
"Ani, I'd have the same objection if a computer game character, a YJK character, a WEG character or a comicbook character was just plopped in.
Conquest is (supposedly) an adult book, the only characters that the reader should be expected to know anything about are characters from the movies and from other adult books
Have I said this clearly enough for you to understand yet?"

Obviously not, Dewlanna. There's at least one person here who's skull is too thick for such discrimination against JJK (and other sources) to register.

 

anyuman said"Do not presume to know what is going on in another person's head. Prove your clairvoyance, then say things like that."

No those weren't my words, it was something MAS said to sombody else in an interview, when asked why he didn't use any yjk, or JJK characters. also, why he was setting up jagged to be a love interest, instead of bringing back zekk. What I said above was paraphrased from what he said.

As for everything else your saying to me I was trying to make a point to dewlanna's and others saying ikrit should have shown up earlier. Not necesserily my views. It was devil's advocate thoughts.

"Even that wasn't useless. That was closure. Your opinion against mine"

Yet, it wasn't closure, KJA brings her back to life yet again in a chapter of the Essential Chronology for one more battle.

Which was his type of closure. A way that made her look as if she died in battle. But that is unknown, according too the book.

Beyond that I liked the book, though I think daala was out of character. Apparently so did KJA, for him to add his own version of closure, .

 

"No those weren't my words, it was something MAS said to sombody else in an interview, when asked why he didn't use any yjk, or JJK characters. also, why he was setting up jagged to be a love interest, instead of bringing back zekk. What I said above was paraphrased from what he said."

Ah, my mistake. Please provide proper citation next time so nobody else makes my mistake.

"Even that wasn't useless. That was closure. Your opinion against mine"

"Yet, it wasn't closure, KJA brings her back to life yet again in a chapter of the Essential Chronology for one more battle."
"Which was his type of closure. A way that made her look as if she died in battle. But that is unknown, according too he book."

Pulled a Zahn, did he? How sweet.

"Beyond that I liked the book, though I think daala was out of character. Apparently so did KJA, for him to add his own version of closure."

We have no idea why he went back and gave Daala another way out of the picture. Mind-reading again.

 

"We have no idea why he went back and gave Daala another way out of the picture. Mind-reading again."

ya, thanks for the sarcasm, . But really we don't know why kja and dan wallace went back to right another way out, besides, the fact that she is KJA pet character, one he wants to be open to use in other books, according to the author in chats. He has stated in other interviews that he wasn't much pleased with what hambly did to his character. So putting two and two together. It's obvious he wanted another way out for her, or that section of the chapter in the EC would not be needed, it served no other point.

 

something kind of absurd Dewlanna said on the last page:

It is NOT that he is a character for a kids' book. It is that he is a character, in an adult novel, that comes from some place other then an adult novel WITHOUT ANY PREVIOUS MENTION.

Isn't this sort of a Catch 22, Dew? Really. If he was mentioned in NJO first in Jedi Eclipse, would you then be saying he shouldn't be in it because he was never mentioned previously in any other adult novel? What about completely new characters? Do you have the same bias against them? If novels were only allowed to use previously used characters and not allowed to introduced new one or re-introduce obscure and ignored characters.

 

What is being objected to is the introduction of a character, presenting their long and involved back story, their intimate relationship with a main character, and then killing them less then a hundred pages later. All that was needed was a small mention in JE, perhaps a paragraph or two, just in preparation for his appearance and subsequent death in Conquest. Otherwise it just seems out of the blue.

 

it's all the same.
He was an obscure character brought in to satisfy those upset of his exclusion then killed off to get him out of the way. big deal

 

Well, the big deal is that I think it is poor planning.

 

planning has nothing to dowith it. DO you think the authors just divy up the characters and Keyes said "I get Ikrit, no one else touch him."

I have no doubt that Keyes learned of Ikrit in the research that was given to him and he decided to include him. None of the previous authors cared to use him. They all had other characters they had to worry about using already, why shoehorn in another?

 

Then I'm thinking he probably shouldn't have used him. At least not to just kill him off shortly after he was introduced. I wouldn't have minded reading about him for a book or two. At least save his death until later in the book after we've had a chance to give a care about him.

 

What's done is done. Ikrit died kicking ass. he proved to naysayers a Jedi could be fluffy and cute, and his death provided turmoil for Anakin even the reader didn't know enough about him to care. At least the reader knows that Anakin cares.

 

>> "We have no idea why he went back and gave
>> Daala another way out of the picture. Mind-
>> reading again."
>
> ya, thanks for the sarcasm, . But really
> we don't know why kja and dan wallace went
> back to right another way out

Regarding Admiral Daala's "grand exit" in the Essential Chronology, I just want to point out that it was NOT done to dis Barbara Hambly, as some here have been speculating.

Shortly after the publication of Planet of Twilight (featuring Daala's "retirement"), Mike Kube-McDowell mentioned Daala as being one of the New Republic's current enemies in the Deep Core. Since K-Mac's books were set after Barbara's, this created a tricky bit of continuity which we tried to fix with the aforementioned scene.

Best,
Dan

 

Count Jared...
"Then I'm thinking he probably shouldn't have used him."

But, then that would almost be like having Luke appear all the time and leave Mara out. Ikrit has always had a strong connection to both Anakin, Yavin IV and children in trouble. What did Conquest have:
1. Anakin
2. Yavin IV
3. Children in trouble

Ikrit's appearance in Conquest is just about as rational an appearance as you can possibly get. His appearance elsewhere would be less rational.

 

That makes so much more sense Mr. Wallace. Thank you!

 

And now for you Ghengis12

G12-
"But, then that would almost be like having Luke appear all the time and leave Mara out."

That's something I could deal with and I'm sure you could too.

"Ikrit's appearance in Conquest is just about as rational an appearance as you can possibly get. His appearance elsewhere would be less rational."

Rational I agree. Well done, no.

But as DL has said what is done is done. 'Course doesn't mean I and others of like mind will not continue to voice our displeasure. After all these are the "Discussion Boards" not the "Gushing Boards".

 

Thanks Dan, for the clarification. I'm glad to know what the reason for it was, was something more within Continuity.

 

It doesn't seem as though any minds are being changed in this controversy over how and when to include characters from other book series, comic books, etc., does it? For myself, I'm in agreement with Jade's Fire. I don't mind having characters from other resources utilized in the NJO novels, but I would like them to be introduced in a reasonable fashion. If I'm expected to feel sorrow at someone's death, I'd like to have the opportunity to get to know that character before he/she is killed off, so I can have the proper reaction. I would have appreciated a scene with Anakin speaking to Ikrit about Sernpidal or seeking advice about Centerpoint Station, as Jade's Fire suggested.

That said, however, I do give the folks at Del Rey credit for trying to include characters and events from earlier books. When done right, I admit it's nice to revisit with familiar old friends from the Bantam novels in this very alien universe. I was pleased to see Karrde, Wedge, Corran, Pellaeon, etc. The reader almost needs the comfort of the familiar in this very different 'Star Wars' series. I know that I very much enjoyed Luceno's references to characters and events from previous books, and I admired his vast SW knowledge. The man seemed like a walking SW Encyclopedia!

I can see where it may have been difficult for Del Rey to decide which characters and which series of books to include in the NJO story arc, so I can understand their decision to utilize any and all of the former books and characters. This certainly must be a massive undertaking for those in charge of continuity, so I do applaud their efforts. A little more background information and a little more care before inserting a character from an earlier series would be appreciated though, as it would make the experience more satisfying, I think.

I realize that this is off-topic, but since it has been mentioned recently, I thought I'd make this comment anyway: One resource that I wish Timothy Zahn had been successful in keeping out of the novel continuity long ago is Dark Empire. I know that most of you liked that comic book, but I really hated it! I could go on and on for pages about why, but I'll spare you and just mention three reasons:

1. It completely negated "Return of the Jedi" and Darth Vader's (Anakin Skywalker's) sacrifice.

2. Dead characters should remain dead. I just don't 'buy' this whole Emperor 'reborn' , Emperor clone thing. Obviously the whole SW story is fantasy, but the logic of how the Emperor could have transferred his 'essence' into a clone which was who-knows-how-many lightyears away while falling into a reactor shaft on the Death Star II truly escapes me. This Emperor's Clone idea is asking for a suspension of disbelief that I'm not able to give it, nor would I have any reason to want to.

3. Luke Skywalker was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in the Star Wars films. He was willing to die TWICE to avoid the Dark side. Why would he suddenly simply agree to join the Emperor and the dark side for NO REASON at all? It makes no sense and severely damages the Skywalker character, in my opinion.


What I really wanted to discuss again today though was the Jedi and how they've been portrayed in the NJO series. The Jedi are of paramount importance to me, and the series is supposed to be about the Jedi, yet we really haven't seen the Jedi accomplish much. They barely even play a role in some books. As I've mentioned before, I don't like the fact that there's this philosophical rift in the Order and that the Jedi are always bickering among themselves. During this darkest time for the Jedi and the galaxy, when they should be pulling together to fight the common enemy, they're verbally fighting with each other. You've all heard the old saying: "United we stand; divided we fall". In my opinion, the Jedi need to heed that saying. It's been frustrating to read about planet after planet falling to the Vong, not to mention countless beings and ships, while the Jedi have done little to stop them. Instead, t

 

Aniss - Del Rey has listed the Junior Jedi Knights (along with Jedi Apprentice, another series aimed at the same age group) at the beginning of every NJO novel. From the start, Del Rey has indicated that these novels are part of the continuity that precedes the NJO. So readers have had clues regarding the possible inclusion of JJK characters (or YJK characters, for that matter) since Vector Prime.

Aniss - my mistake - I thought your above post meant that there's a continuity in both the JJK/YJK series.

Child of Winds - thank you for your reference of my foodstuffs... but my nickname is 'Skydancer'not 'Stardancer'. I guess I could also dance among the Stars, not a bad idea.

 

btw RAS, Wurth Skidder? Great name. up there with Talon, Mara and Kyps

 

By the way, how exactly is Drizzt pronounced? I've been pronouncing it like "Drizzit," but how is it supposed to be pronounced?

 

Regarding toning down the force:

Actually I never thought there was much of a problem with too much force usage, except for the Hermitage thing and I would add the tossing of star destroyers away by the students at Yavin. In fact I do agree that the movies should be followed. In the film's the Jedi speak to eachother and sense eachother through the force, L/L L/V L/Obi Wan. They have force jumps and force pushing,
force persuasion, great lightsaber battles, levitation of objects. I enjoy reading or seeing a Jedi in action. The problem with prior Bantam novels, may have been misdiagnosed. I think there may have been too much trying to recreate the films with superweapons and superenemies. Not every problem needed to be galactic. One person's, or one planet's problems can still end up taking the characters across the galaxy and into trouble. Some Jedi spy missions would have been fun. A little more fleshing out of their relationships. How did Luke and Leia learn to become a real brother and sister? We were told often that Han and Luke were good friends but we rarely saw them together. But what has been done before is all water under the bridge now, and since I am some what of an EU minimalist, I just pretend that some things that I don't like didn't happen,and hope that it is done differently in the future. RAS, I'm sure you did what you thought was asked of you, I just don't agree that it was as necessary as some have thought.

Sometimes I think people forget that even though the Jedi have wonderful powers that they are also human. They can make mistakes, be tired or distracted, or be overwhelmed by too many to handle. I have faith that the authors can be creative enough to make better traps. This, I think is the solution to keeping the tension. I would rather not see the force weakened. You said that Ben could have sensed the trash compactor problem. Perhaps he did, but he might also have sensed that they would get out of it and his help was not needed. He was a bit far away to be much physical help anyway. Are Jedi always touching the force, or do they only reach out into it when they need it? Are there different levels of being in touch?

Child of winds, regarding the need for more tolerance. Well said. I think we are just seeing a reflection of the general society here. We are all rather fragmented today it seems. Especially in the schools. I have a 14 year old daughter, in her school the athletes do not mix with the music people, the art people do not mix with the science people, level 1 does not talk to level 2. It is not like when we were in school where a football player was just as likely to be in the play or choir as anyone else. The more activities under your belt the better, and you met all kinds of people. The is so much pressure on them today to stay in the box they are labled in. This is the atmosphere many of the fans on this board have been raised in, they don't know that it can be different. It's very sad.

 

I read the recent Greg Keyes interview at the Shattered Knights Forum web site (Warning: the interview contains Rebirth spoilers [the part quoted below does not, however]).

A couple questions concerned the inclusion of JJK characters:

[begin quote]

SKF: Were you allowed to choose the main character for Conquest?

GK: No, I was asked to write an "Anakin" adventure.

[snip]

SKF: Why did you choose to work with a character from the Junior Jedi Knights books instead of some better established characters?

GK: If you mean Anakin, again, that was predestined. As for Tahiri, Ikrit, eta. - I read the J.J.K. books and concluded that it wasn't playing by the rules to pretend they never existed, despite the fact that we pretty much never hear about Anakin's best friend in any of the other NJO books. I hoped to build a bridge to adulthood for both Anakin and Tahiri and to explore the ramifications of their relationship as Tahiri moves into her teens. I've noticed this has pleased some readers and others have hated the extension of the JJK world into the NJO. As for not being able to deal with Luke, Han, Leia, and so on - there simply wasn't room. I knew it was risky, but it was the job I was asked to do.

[end quote]

In other words, Greg Keyes made the decision to include Ikrit and Tahiri, not the NJO planning team, or editors at Del Rey or LucasFilm.

I suspect that the time frame made it flatly impossible for Mike Stackpole to use Ikrit or Tahiri in Onslaught, and probably difficult, if not impossible, for Jim Luceno to use them in Jedi Eclipse, in preparation for Greg Keyes' use of the characters in Conquest.

In Conquest, Greg Keyes used the absence of contact between Tahiri and Anakin to provide motivation for Tahiri's stubborn behavior. In a solid scene, Ikrit and Anakin talk about both Sernpidal and Centerpoint. This talk between these two characters belongs in Conquest, a novel centered on Anakin and featuring Ikrit's final appearance, not in an earlier book like Jedi Eclipse.

 

RAS:One of the concerns that I, and many others, had about continuing the novels was that the Force had grown far beyond the proportions and powers shown in the movies (which is a natural evolution of such things through many novels). This can become a problem, where authors are forced to introduce some kryptonite, if you will, to prevent the easy solution to what should be a tense situation.
I'm in total agreement with you on this point Bob. When the heros (or villains) are too powerful, the tension of the story suffers.
I have had fears of the Vong being made too invincible and the only way to stop them would be with "kryptonite" or something like Samantha's cold that made her nose twitches go awry.

Stackpole's allergic reaction of the armor is a good bit of kryptonite (that hasn't been used yet, btw). The "Shamed Ones" if used carefully, could be a good chink in the Vong's seeming invincibility. Anakin's new found ability to "sense" the Vong could open numerous avenues for a conclusion to this invasion.
I just don't want to see the Vong defeated by a lucky break for the good guys (Deus ex Machina), too much infighting and fear of their superiors (the Colonel Klink scenario) or just plain stupidity of the Vong (like the way the Packers all too often play football).
I'd like to see the Jedi and the NR use their brains (and compassion) to actually defeat the Vong.
And SOON. I'm really tired of this villain and this storyline.