PT TPM underrated

Yeah there is a point where films can become too descriptive of things. It robs the viewer of their ability to put two and two together.

I'm not arguing for intentional vagueness. I'm just saying there needs to be a.......uhhh...balance.

 

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Everybody says that TPM was the worst movie of all. I think that it is as good as ANH. I like the podrace and retaking theed palace. The only thing I don't like about it is how silly Jar Jar was.

 

This. I always felt that TPM could have been combined with AOTC (minus the love story I guess).

 

I disagree. TPM has less filler than AOTC for me. IMO AOTC just mechanically hits necessary marks, in a fashion not enhancing of ROTS as much as it should. Half the movie could be removed and it would still set up the rest of the movies. It is a good sequel to TPM, I'll give it that.
Qui-Gon is a very important character, I mean Yoda becomes his apprentice at the end of ROTS, and Luke moves symbolically closer to Qui-Gon when he becomes a Jedi. Also, Qui-Gon is so much wiser a mentor than Obi-Wan in AOTC. Partially intended I think. His death is an omen, I sometimes perceive the prequel characters as cursed.
TPM also has far more Palpatine/Sidious dialogue, how is that not connected with the later movies? And Yoda's lines are less pointless than the AOTC equivalents. I can see ESB Yoda in TPM Yoda, AOTC Yoda just doesn't strike me as wise.
I know it's subjective, but I just feel the Jedi and the Sith are set up better in TPM than AOTC achieves. And I actually find nine year-old Anakin more important (and likeable) than his ninteen year-old incarnation.

 

Both AOTC and TPM have some filler. If you combine them, you get one very solid episode, leaving some important stuff like Anakin & Padme relationship to develop in the next one.

Qui-Gon is important, sure, but he could have contributed just as much in a supporting role, similar to old Ben in ANH. And Jar-Jar... don't get me started. I don't hate him, but he should have stayed on Naboo

TPM does set up a lot of important plotlines, particularly related to the Jedi, corruption in the Republic and Palpatine's rise of power, but it also drops the ball on Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship, and that's arguably should be just as important. I think GL's original idea of having Obi-Wan as a central character and the one to find Anakin, made more sense, not to mention more in line with the OT.

 

Honestly having Qui-gon killed in TPM was shocking, and it was both cruel and genius.

When you guys heard qui-gon was going to be the forefront of TPM did you think he would die in episode I? were you surprised when he got run through? Sad?

Having Qui-gon only in TPM gives value to TPM. Its more unique having qui-gon in it.

Plus having qui-gon go down allows for obi to step up. He ownes Darth Maul and lives up to his name.

Having said that, i think its too much to say Obi-Wan failed Anakin. I do not think that was said in this thread, but that Obi-Wan was inferior to Qui-gon.

I think this is true in a certain way, but i feel by ROTS Obi-Wan and Anakin have reached a point where they have truly accepted each other, as men, as brothers, as equals and as Jedi.

Obi-Wan was more of a brother to Anakin, rather than a father. Qui-gon was the fatherly figure.

TPM has good performances from (most notably) Liam Neeson and Pernilla August. Natalie Portman and Ewan do well in their roles, and Ewan does a good job putting Obi-Wan in a completely different light despite his reduced role.

of course Ian Mcdiarmid is great as usual.

Ewan should be noted especially in the PT, because he effectively carries AOTC and ROTS, and cancels out Hayden's occasional stiffness.

 

The only time I really can't stand him is in the final battle. That's the last place you need slap-stick comedy. But the interaction with other characters earlier I don't have a real problem with.

Agreed. The kind of lame moment when they meet, introduced by Qui-Gon, sometimes makes me wish they'd stuck with Obi-Wan discovering him. Having said that, the fact that Qui-Gon dies and Anakin ends up with a mentor more like a brother figure seems symbolic. "Duel of the fates" indeed.

 

Personally, it's only a bit much for me -- and even then, only slightly -- when Jar Jar waggles his lips or shakes his head around after being hit or grabbed, like an actual cartoon character; yet that's what also makes it sort of cool. Interestingly, Lucas claims he has always had an affinity for animation, and when he got an scholarship at Warner Bros., after winning a film competition, back, in, er, 1967 or 1968, I think it was, all he wanted to do was tour the animation department*, but he found out, to great disappointment, it had been closed. Jar Jar, in a way, represents the completion of a life-long dream. Far from some appeal to children as a mere demographic, Jar Jar is "the child" of Lucas, and if you want to take it a step further, "the child" of digital cinema (for cinema itself, never mind digital cinema, is very infant-like and new; and Lucas has more or less said this himself).

*Though I may be misinterpreting the situation. According to one article I've read, Lucas really wanted to go over there, primarily, to use their cameras and other equipment, figuring he only needed to locate some film, and he'd be able to make a movie of his own, rather than observing others, which is what his scholarship entailed and which he disliked. Nonetheless, it remains an interesting anecdote, not least because Lucas' first film, "Look At Life", was a one-minute "animated" film, and Lucas has boasted about it getting recognition and winning awards with a certain pride he doesn't express too often.

I like Lucas' blithe understatement in the meet-and-greet scene. It's Anakin running in, Qui-Gon being out of breath, panic about Maul -- "What are we gonna do about it?" (note the emphasis on "we": Anakin having already bonded with Qui-Gon) -- and Obi-Wan being largely ignored. Then Qui-Gon catches his breath and responds, "We shall be patient", in a way that Liam Neeson makes awesome, and he finally introduces his current padawan to his almost-padawan, with Obi-Wan only seeming to pull his hand out from under his robe out of sheer cordiality, and not because he's made any move to say "Hello, there!" on his own. Quite ironic. Finally, there's Anakin's cheery, "You're a Jedi, too?! Pleased to meet you!" which is tension-breaking and goofy enough to elicit a chuckle -- yes, an actual chuckle -- from Neeson's stoic, zen master of a Jedi. Very clever little scene. But I know what you mean.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've never thought TPM is useless. But I do have a few gripes with the PT storywise:

1) Not enough time with the adult Anakin. We go from an innocent boy who "knows nothing of greed" to the troubled youth obsessed with controlling things around him. How did that happen? Obi-Wan must have been a terrible sensei!
2) Not enough Clone Wars - or, in more general sense, not big conflict to provide the sense of urgency. Showing the Republic in the peaceful times is important, of course, but things don't get epic until the end of AOTC, and that's a bit of a long wait.
3) Underdeveloped relationship between Obi-Wan/Anakin (and, to a lesser extent, Anakin/Padme).

And all of these is TPM's fault, for not setting it up properly. TPM does sometimes feel more like a prologue. Sometimes I wish Lucas brought back his old idea of making an "odd" Star Wars movie, turned TPM into Episode 0 and then had the whole trilogy with the Clone Wars and Palpatine's rise to power as a backdrop.

 

TPM is the setup to the saga, and every movie or book HAS to have a beginning, and sometimes that isn't the most interesting part, but it gives you vital information to get you to point b. Of course TPM isn't going to give you the red meat that AOTC & ROTS do, but that's the way most beginnings of anything are constructed.

 

Yeah, it seems appropriate that Obi-Wan offers Anakin a halfhearted handshake and the faintest of smiles by way of introduction, all the while totally oblivious to just how much his and Anakin's lives will become intertwined. And yet fast fast forward to ANH, and immediately after Obi-Wan accepts his fate he turns to Vader and offers up a similar smile, kind of like he's letting go of the burden and for a split second returning to that place where Anakin is just a boy.

 

Genius? You'd have to be blind not to see his death coming. I knew he was going to die the moment he appeared on screen.

The only appeal of Qui-Gon Jin is the actor who plays him. Neeson kicks ass, thus Qui-Gon was entertaining for his part, but useless overall.

And older Obi-Wan should have been the main character. You can easly combine characteristics of Qui-Gon with Obi-Wan and probably have a better movie.

 

Ironically, that was exactly GL's original intention. Makes you wonder why he went off a tangent like that. I don't know if it would make a better movie, but the overall narrative of the PT would have been better, IMO.

 

I think it's because it makes Obi-Wan the square, by comparison, the conservative element who keeps to the strict Jedi party-line. Qui-Gon is more radical, more rebelious, more warm and openly emotional. He's more personal, and that's the very thing the Jedi seek to avoid in the PT. By having Anakin taught by the more conventional Obi-Wan, it illustrates a point on the failure of old-fashioned teaching techniques to younger generations. Anakin needed somebody like Qui-Gon, so Obi-Wan couldn't just be a more continuity-respecting version of that. He needed to be a square, a suit, another brick in the wall.

 

Great observations.

 

I guess you knew Qui-Gon wouldn't appear in the later movies, didn't you?
It's much more surprising if you watch Episode I first.

I think he did it because he didn't want Obi-Wan as TPM's main character.
The PT is supposed to be Anakin's trilogy, but Anakin has limited screentime in TMP. It's reasonable to reduce Obi-Wan's screentime too.
And I think it was nice to see Obi-Wan's mentor in comparison to his own skills as a teacher.

 

Actually.....YEP....If you've seen enough movies you can easly tell who's canon fodder and who's not.

Qui-Gon fit that bill perfectly. He reeks of, "I'm gonna die in this movie."

 

WAT? Having Obi-Wan be the radical, more reblious, more warm and openly emotional one, would have been far better. ESB clearly states that Obi-Wan was reckless. Was it not reckless to train a boy who's future was clouded and far to old to begin the training?

Obi-Wan being the main character and being the one who desires to train Anakin would be far more heart breaking in the overall story. Having Obi-Wan believing that he could train and control Anakin, to make Anakin the best, only to have him fall and destroy the Jedi, would add a lot to the character of Obi-Wan that's only hinted at in the Old trilogy.

 

Yes. And in that story, the squares would've been right. Taking a chance on training Anakin would've been seen as a mistake, plain and simple. What I like about how the PT goes down is that, in Qui-Gon, we see the rebelious, radical Jedi that Anakin needed, deserved to be his mentor. We are given the opportunity of imagining Skywalker flourishing under this hippie-dippie Jedi, but then see that figure get cut down, and the Padawan get traded off to the more conservative teacher.

If Obi-Wan had been the hippie, then it would've been the hippies that had failed Anakin, and brought about the Dark Side. But because Obi-Wan is a square, like all the other Jedi, it's their collective fault, and the fault of more conservative philosophies in general, that starts Anakin down the slippery slope to the Dark Side.

Basically, Anakin is a kid who should've gone to Sarah Lawrence and given the freedom to do his own thing, but instead he got shipped to Yale, and became a Skull & Bones-man.

 

well im pretty sure we all knew Qui-Gon was going to die. But we didn't know it would be episode I.

plus there is a different kind of hype for TPM. we arent thinking "oh yeah i bet liam neesons character is going to die when the movie comes out next month!" As it is the first installment and you walk in with two feet.

then come AOTC and ROTS, people know the cast, so they can guess when they will die.

Also, i was a kid, so i wasn't exactly scouring the force.net for details......

 

I really liked Qui-Gon, so when he died, it came as a semi-surprise. My reaction to Maul's blow against him was the same as Obi-Wan's, but only for a second or two. Basically it was "NOOOOOOO-- oh, wait. I should've seen this coming. Right. Obi-Wan died in ANH, so Qui-Gon dies here. Okay. Makes sense, but man, that sucks". Of course, another second later and the effect was compounded by the sight of Qui-Gon impaled on the lightsaber, at which point it became something like, "Holy ****. Okay, he's really ****ing dead. Wow. I was not expecting to see something that intense" And of course, the sight of Maul chopped in ****ing half... I was basically just sitting in my chair thinking, "Okay. I just saw somebody get chopped in half in a Star Wars movie. A bad guy, yeah. And comeuppence for my new favorite character being run through graphically, but seriously. Chopped in half? Damn, man. This is better than Mortal Kombat."

 

indeed a fitting end for Maul....... *puts on flame shield*

 

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Best thing about TPM imo is Obi Wan. It's a shame that in AOTC and ROTS he is painted as this perfect Jedi already (basically a younger Ben Kenobi). He had a bit of rawness in Menace.