What If: Yoda vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan vs. Sidious

Ive just got one thing to say about Maul vs Obi-wan, since i am the one who brought this off topic before.
Well, it seems that someone loves Obi-wan a little too much. Maul fought a jedi master and his padawan at the same time. and held them off and split them up like he needed to. Then when obi-wan came rushing and cut mauls saber in half, which if you know anyting about fighing with weapons was an advantage at that point. It was a small room, having a double sided saber in a small space is bad. then it is said that he pushed maul back to the wall and was crushing him til maul bitched out and did a force push? do you know nothing. watch Ali fight foreman. Ill save you some time, Ali got beat up, pushed to the ropes, crushed, but he was really just waiting for the right time then BAM, whoops some ass and wins the title. thats what maul did, waited, backed himself up, let obi-wan get confident, then lined him up with the huge hole in the ground and force pushed him right in there. TACTICS is the name of the game.

 

Impenetrable saber skills my arse lol. Are we not forgetting that not a single one of Obi-Wan's fights in the PT was won with his lightsaber skills or knowledge of the force, but rather through his clever use of his surroundings and in Anakin's case, total knowledge of his opponent and his weaknesses. In fact the two times he fought an opponent (Dooku) in straight up combat, he had his ass handed to him.

Now I will agree with Joshua's theory that hypothetically in six years or so, Obi-Wan would stand a much better chance against Sids since Obi was still developing his abilities during ROTS where Yoda and Sids were both pretty much at their peaks. Assuming the fights never took place in ROTS and Obi-Wan and Yoda held off for six years in hiding to prepare, it would be possible for Obi-Wan to have developed his powers to the point where he could stand up to Sidious. Don't forget however that Vader would be able to take out all three of them at once if he felt like it as his powers would be obscene by that time so the six year thing is a moot point to begin with.

 

Anytime Yadidameen,

I stated clearly earlier. Obi-Wan percieving the destruction of Alderaan from halfway across the galaxy is a Yoda level Force skill, tantamount to Yoda percieving Order 66 being carried out. Obi-Wan didn't sense Order 66 being carried out, he sensed Alderaan being destroyed i.e. growth in the Force between III and IV.


Again, as I stated earlier, while it would be nice to have a final authority on such matters, George Lucas' *official* qoutes are tentative and subject to change at best. The man alters his perception of his own films based on any given calendar day or any given mood.

Yoda's little speech to Obi-Wan was a plot point. Not even YODA escaped the overconfidence and complacency of the Jedi Order he was quick to comment on in AOTC. Yoda was humbled in ROTS , to get to where we see him in TESB. Yoda talks all of this rhetoric about Obi-Wan not being powerful enough to face Sidious, then faces Sidious himself and fails. That is a specific, important plot point.


Dooku round 1 AOTC. Yes, over matched Obi-Wan with saber ability, though as a fencer, I can tell you a glide, which is how he defeated Obi-Wan, isn't really a measure of skill but more of a harassing tactic. Nevertheless, I grant you, Dooku was superior in AOTC.

Dooku round 2 ROTS. Obi-Wan has grown in skill considerably. Dooku can no longer best Obi-Wan with a saber, and must continually Force throw him simply to keep him away. Where is the definitive example of Dookus superiority in this battle? Obi-Wan hit his HEAD on a rail. If anything, the rail beat Obi-Wan, not Dooku. How many Force throws did we see in ROTS anyway? Yoda Force threw Sidious. Obi-Wan Force threw Grievous. Darth Vader and Obi-Wan indirectly Force threw each other. See a pattern here? Suppose Sidious had hit his head and been knocked unconscious by Yoda? Would you really give the fight to Yoda under those circumstances?

I would even argue ( as the *official* novelization suggests ) that Dookus constant Force throws were a desperation tactic because he wanted Obi-Wan AWAY from him, BECAUSE he saw the danger in the duo.


Actually, truth be known, for all of this heralded talk of Sidious, I'm still waiting for someone to make it clear excactly HOW and WHY he is so powerful, and would walk all over Obi-Wan in 2 seconds. I mean really. Let's get it all out on the table. What could he possibly DO that is so amazingly overpowering that it would make Obi-Wan vomit??? Force Lightning?? Obi-Wan blocks Force lightning with his saber. AOTC. Saber dueling?? If Obi-Wan can handle Darth Vaders unrelenting, all powerful, ridiculously fast barrage he can sure as hell handle anything Sidious throws at Obi-Wan concerning a lightsaber. Force ability? granted, that is Sidious' advantage, the ability to hurtle large objects at opponents. But, as I've said before, what, is Obi-Wan incapable opf flipping out of the way or something? Someone try to explain that one to me because I don't get it.

The only thing we have seen Sidious do in the films as far as physical contact, is kill three lower tier background character action figure of the month Jedi-Masters, get knocked flat on his ass by Mace Windu, duel Yoda to a draw, and attack a defenseless farm boy with lightning. Where is the power? Where is the absolute awesome display? Where is the unequivocal proof that Sidious would annihilate Obi-Wan Kenobi? The character with a PROVEN track record. The character that gets the job done. Like I said, Obi-Wan wouldn't beat Sidious, only the Chosen one can do that. That's the story. That's the plot. But all of this Bull**** about Sidious walking all over Obi-Wan is straight up that, bull****. It's an opinion versus my opinion. Nothing more or less. And until someone can demonstrate to me otherwise, I'm thoroughly confident and convinced a fight between Obi-Wan and Sidious as I have stated before wouldn;t be nearly as ONE sided as SOME people like to think. Sidious would have to earn Obi-Wan's defeat I guarandamntee

 

"The only way your precious Obi-Wan can seem to win a battle is by dangling from a cliff or chopping people while there jumping, or in the middle of jumping."

This is exactly what I was pointing out. The only way Obi-Wan would have a chance of besting Sidious would be if he pulled something out of his bag of tricks ala Maul and Grievous. The problem with this is Sidious is just way too strong with the perception powers of the force and thusly Obi-Wan would never be able to land one of his cheapshots. Sidious throughout the entire saga has been shown to be able to adapt to every situation, forsee everything, and generally outsmart his opponents at every turn, and this is where his true power lies. Combine this with the fact that he is one of the two most powerful force users in the galaxy at the time and in league with Anakin and Mace in saber ability and he is nearly unstoppable. The only way ANYONE will beat Sidious is defeating him in straight up light saber combat ala Mace Windu and sorry to say but Obi-Wan has no chance of doing this as he never bested anyone with his fighting skills alone.

 

"Okay seriously anyone saying Obi-Wan would have a snowballs chance in hell against Sids is a fanboy and that's that. Consider for a moment that in the entire PT, Obi-Wan NEVER won a straight up fight, either losing or fighting to a stalemate and then having to resort to dumb luck/good sense depending on your Point of view every single time. Look at his history.

1. VS Darth Maul - Lost the duel straight up as Maul had him by the balls disarmed and holding on for dear life. If Qui-Gon had not been there (to drop his light saber) Obi-Wan would have been toast
2. VS Count Dooku 1 - Lost to him quickly and decisively, had Anakin not been there Dooku would have killed him
3. VS Count Dooku 2 - Again lost to Count Dooku, had he been there alone he would have been killed easily
4. VS General Grevious - Lost the fight and was again holding on for his life, luckily his dumb luck again saved his ass again as a blaster happened to be right next to him when he needed it
5. VS Darth Vader - Was on the defensive the entire duel and had the whole high-ground thing never happened or had Anakin handled it in a smarter way, he would have soon been killed (as shown in the Episode 3 video game)"

"I really wouldn't consider myself a Sith/Sidious fan at all as I love all the characters in the SW saga and Obi-Wan is one of my favorites. The only thing I didn't like about Obi-Wan in the PT is the way he won his fights as stated above. I don't recall Obi-Wan ever "having Maul and Vader." As I remember, Maul had Obi-Wan beaten hanging on for his life and Vader had Obi-Wan on the defensive the entire fight and it is known that he would have won had he not made his near fatal error regarding the high-ground. I also remember the handless Grievous beating Obi to a bloody pulp afterwards and having him hanging weaponless with Grievous homing in for the kill. Granted you are correct that Obi-Wan was always the last one standing, and I am not refuting that point, I'm merely stating that every time he won it was because of a wild card (an extra light sabre nearby after he lost his, a blaster nearby when both combatants were fighting hand to hand, an area of easily defendable high-ground when he was falling back). The fact remains that Obi-Wan never won a straight up duel in the PT, whether you call it blind luck or taking advantage of the situation, and given a fair fight against Sidious he would be beaten faster than both the times that he lost to Dooku. I would really like it if you pointed out which part of my post is "Sheer unadulterated, unsubstantiated, vitriolic hyperbole," because it is all fact as far as I can tell."

Perhaps it was the Will of the Force, and not blind luck?

 

LOL "intermediate lightsaber ability."


If you can state that in good conscience, then this little exercise is a quagmire of hypocrisy. NO ONE is greater than Obi-Wan with a lightsaber. NO ONE. Not Yoda. Not Mace. Not Anakin. Not Qui-Gon. Not Dooku. Not Maul. Not Luke. No one. Go read the novel.


As far as Obi-Wan and cheap shots, that's unbelievable anyone could even suggest that. So let me get this straight, Obi-Wan pushing Maul all the way back against a laser wall with his lightsaber, then Maul having to resort to a Force push to get Obi-Wan off of him, ISN'T a cheap shot?? Same with Dooku. At the very least VADER kept it clean and used only his lightsaber against Obi-Wan. IS a Force push a true test of skill given everyone and their brother can do them?
You can't have it both ways. Are such tactics legitimate in a fight,i.e. overcoming adversity and disadvantage, or are they cheap shots? Or are they cheap shots only when Obi-Wan does them?
How about Sidious incorporating HIS enviroment into the fight? The Senate Pods. Isn't that a cheap shot against Yoda? Why didn't he duel with Yoda to the death using a lightsaber hm?
And you can't get much cheaper than Sidious blasting Mace and Luke with Lightning while they are disarmed. That is certainly some manifestation of an awesome display of Force power huh. Is that the measure and definition of power some of you are using here?
Well if so that works even better then, either Obi-Wan is the MASTER of cheap shots and working his opponent, or the Master of incorporating his enviroment into a fight when the odds are stacked against him. So which one is it going to be Sithly accolytes?

 

Like I've said before...if Obi-Wan even "attempted" to fight with Sidious he would have been beaten like a red headed step child.

Obi-Wan is THE luckiest man in Star Wars....he basically loses ALL OF HIS FIGHTS, he just seems to get lucky every time and edge out some way to survive, but I really think his luck would have run out against Sidious.



Obi-Wan to Sidious: "Well hello there"

Sidious: Ahhh, Master Kenobi you were lucky enough to survive?

Obi-Wan: In my experience theres no such thing as "luck".

Sidious:

Obi-Wan:

Sidious:

Obi-Wan: (permanently)



___________________________________________________________________________
EDIT:
And as far as Yoda taking on Anakin....I think Yoda would beat Anakin but not as badly as Sidious would Obi-Wan.

I think it's very possible that Yoda would have even killed Anakin.

Sidious would have killed Obi-Wan (quickly) and Yoda "might" have killed Anakin (he would have at least defeated him) but either way you leave Sidious to face Yoda and then we're back to square one with a different OT.

Sidious and Yoda fight to a stalemate, Yoda has to play the part of the "crazy old wizard" on Tattoine and Sidious needs to find a new apprentice.


hmmmmm....

 

Such poetic logic, I stand awed and silenced, can't really think of any argument against that.

 

I just think Sidious and Yoda are highly overrated and overestimated. Obi-Wan and Darth Vader are the true Queens of the chessboard, they get the work done and clean up. The Kings are defenseless otherwise. The story is about Obi-Wan and Vader, and later to a lesser degree Luke, and their interpersonal dynamic, not Sidious and Yoda. There was far more at stake between Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi fighting then Yoda and Sidious.
People jock Sidious' candy coated nuts because of the pure shock and awe value of seeing him fight, but once the novelty wears off , you see The Emperor has no clothes and is a paper champion . His strength lies in deception and calculation, not fisticuffs.
That's why Darth Vader versus Obi-Wan Kenobi is reffered to as THE DUEL, not Sidious versus Yoda. The entire fate of the universe rested on the duel between Obi-Wan and Vader. They are epitome of heroism and villiany. The ultimate good guy and ultimate bad guy, not Yoda or Sidious. Obi-Wan and Vader represent the best. Their duel was the narrative and figurative nexus of the entire saga. Everything that transpired before was a build up to, and everything that transpired after, was a result of, that single duel between warriors.

 

well as always you have made strong points josh. i love your outlook on most subjects, but your attachment to obi wan holds you back from seeing starwars in a different more objective manner. i can tell you right now that there was much more at stake in the yoda vs sidious duel than THE duel. GL has stated as much. the main character of the PT is anakin, anakin alone. not obi wan. GL has also made this quite clear, as well as stating that the OT is about kluke and vader's redemption. i love reading your points but sometimes your bias towards obi wan tunes me out, you just don't seem to look at things fairly and i feel this hampers your arguements.

i responded to your statement about the way someone is killed doesn't matter as long as they are dead. but in fact it does matter very much, if we are going to discuss a characters skill. please go to the previous page and give me a response to this, i would appreciate it.

i have yet to hear of a way that obi wan could defend against sidious' force powers, lightning? mace proved strong enough to deflect it, it could have been a ruse, and he was struggling as well. but look at what dooku had done to obi wan in the opening duel, what is your response to this? what makes you think that sidious couldn't do the same thing?

you use the novel to reinforce your point about how obi wan is the best swordsman, yet IN THE SAME NOVEL IT STATES THAT THE DUEL BETWEEN sidious and yoda is the ultimate confrontation between light and dark.

this leads me to my next point, even if obi wan is the greatest swordsman (even though i don't think he is) what makes you think this would be enough to last against sidious? saber skill is only one part of the battle, surely you can see this. are you arguing that obi wan has more force power than sidious? this is not true and you can't logically argue in this manner.

one more thing. you were on yoda's case about how he could tell obi wan that obi wan wasn't strong enough to fight sidious, you go on to state how yoda fails, but when the point is brought up about how sidious defeats yoda you dismiss it. it is points like this that i feel severely hamper your arguements, otherwise like always you give strong points.

i look forward to your response.

 

I stated clearly earlier. Obi-Wan percieving the destruction of Alderaan from halfway across the galaxy is a Yoda level Force skill, tantamount to Yoda percieving Order 66 being carried out. Obi-Wan didn't sense Order 66 being carried out,

I would say that the deaths of billions versus a couple of clones coming up behind you is not the same thing.

Obi Wan is unerrated, no dooubt about it. But he would have lost to Sidious.
Anakin would have been defeated by Yoda; Anakin was simply not quite at his true potential.

 

NO ONE is greater than Obi-Wan with a lightsaber. NO ONE. Not Yoda. Not Mace. Not Anakin. Not Qui-Gon. Not Dooku. Not Maul. Not Luke. No one. Go read the novel.

Are you serious???? The guy who choreographs the lightsaber duels ranked Obi-Wan an 8 while Anakin, Yoda, and Sidious are all 9's. There isn't anything from the movies or the books to support Obi-Wan being the best.

 

This is by far the biggest Obi-Wan fanboy, many opinions will fall on deaf ears to him.

Anyway in regards to Sidious shooting Luke and Mace with lightning when they were disarmed, Palpatine too has no weapon, he is using his own force powers against Luke and Mace. What would you want Palpatine to do to kill Luke? Would you prefer he beat him up?


And a force push is not cheap, I have never said it was. Your beloved Obi-Wan uses them a lot in his duels. He uses them against Grievious and then again against Anakin. Are you telling me your beloved Obi-Wan uses these "cheap tactics"? Or is it simply cheap when Obi-Wan is not the one using it? No there not cheap, just like him getting knocked onto his ass by a force push. Or him getting thrown across the room. There not cheap, but you seem to believe that jedi and Sith cannot use there force abilities. Then what may I ask you is the point of them being jedi? Any human can whirl around a lightsaber, but the jedi incorporate there force powers into there duels.

 

This is by far the biggest Obi-Wan fanboy, many opinions will fall on deaf ears to him.

Yeah you said it, opinions. Fanboy?? You mean you suck on Palpatines gnarled, crinkled up ole sack and I'M a fanboy??
Me thinks that someone doth protest a bit too much.

It's called respect and admiration for a character that has damn well earned respect and admiration. Get it straight before you pop off next time.

Obi-Wan has overcome more adversity and challenge than ANY character in the entire saga! He was the first Jedi introduced and is THE quintessential Jedi. Obi-Wan fricking Kenobi represents the personification of all that IS Jedi. If you don't like Jedi fine, if you don't like the character of Obi-Wan fine, if you don't like me fine, but make damn sure to give credit where credit is due and abandon the idiotic notion that ANY character in Star Wars could have a easy go with ****ing Obi-Wan Kenobi. That is the most absurd, pedantic, infantile, immature, uninformed , speculatory , presumptuous postulating on any position I've ever heard in my entire 32 years of life. It's ****ing SAD I actually have to DEFEND Obi-Wan Kenobi to people. To STAR WARS fans no less. Christ almighty haven't you people even SEEN the films?? He is the HERO of the whole thing. Unmitigated, unbending, unyielding GOOD, that always fights for RIGHT, and justice and doesn't ****ing STOP until the right thing is done. How in the hell can ANYONE like Star Wars and NOT think Obi-Wan Kenobi is awesome?? He is PERSONALLY responsible for darkness not enshrouding the whole UNIVERSE. What the hell does that have to do with fanboyism??? Only a bunch of closet Goth, black T-shirt wearing ,"evil is cool" mentalities could POSSIBLY think ill or negatively of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Hell , he is George Lucas' favorite character. If you don't get it, there is little reason for me to try and explain it. And you talk of speaking on deaf ears??


EDIT: WHO in the hell do you think Luke molded who he IS on??
Have you seen Luke's lightsaber hilt?

 

The king of all "beards" has returned.

 

heh heh. Lord Flies has returned. You know what the problem is around these parts Darth Flies? Theres too many Darths and not enough Indians.

 

The only thing we have seen Sidious do in the films as far as physical contact, is kill three lower tier background character action figure of the month Jedi-Masters, get knocked flat on his ass by Mace Windu, duel Yoda to a draw, and attack a defenseless farm boy with lightning.

I think we have indeed seen an awesome display of the dark side from the Emperor as McCallum said we would. The three Jedi Masters were not so lower tier, since both the OS and the novelisation say they were three of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order has ever produced. Electrocuting Luke was an extremely impressive feat, possibly the most impressive display of force power in the entire saga. Luke is a Jedi Knight. If he was strong enough, he could deflect the lightning. But he couldn't because the Emperor is so powerful. Its obvious that Obi-Wan wouldn't stand a chance against him, all quotes from Lucas, McDiarmid, and Gillard indicate as much. I don't think Obi-Wan could block his lightning at all because its much stronger than Dooku's lightning.

 

i have respect for obi wan, i think he is THE jedi master, you keep asking us if we have seen the films, and i can say yes i have seen every single one of them. in fact i am watching ROTS right now, and with all due respect obi wan isn't some uber baddie when it comes to combat. in terms of morality and decision making he is upper teir definitely but he is not some uber baddie in terms of cambat ability. i would like to know what you think of dooku lifting obi wan through the air and tossing him into the rail, then crushing him with the rail. you dismissed the notion that dooku was responsible for knocking obi wan unconscience and stated that the RAIL knocked obi wan out, was this a serious statement? i really don't think it was, i don't think such mindless banter would come from you, unless it was a joke. dooku simply out performed obi wan, and for all intents and purposes was shown to be superior to obi wan. i still have not heard a reasonable response to the notion that sidious could do the same thing dooku did, what is stopping him? he is the master of dooku, correct? so it's reasonable to assume that he possesses more power than dooku, so what makes you think that sidious couldn't do the same exact thing that dooku did?

i asked you to respond to my previous points, but you probably have a life and were busy, and that makes perfect sense, but i will ask anyway, do you think i could get a response on some of my points? i feel like we can have a reasonable debate, and who knows you might be able to change my outlook. i look forward to your response.

 

Not to be too much of a downer, farrellg, but the simple fact is that Sidious was able to electrocute Luke because Luke was not really fully trained. Sure, he knew how to wield a lightsaber, and had some additional Force abilities, but his depth and breadth of knowledge were lacking. I would think that Luke was unable to block Sidious' Force Lightning because he wasn't instructed on how to do so, and had not had an opportunity to learn that for himself.

Your speculation that Obi Wan would be unable to block Sidious' lightning is rather broad and vague. Are you saying he couldn't do it while wielding a lightsaber? I take that to be the case, given your comparison with the AotC engagement. I would suggest that Obi Wan could have deflected the lightining with his saber, and there is nothing that really dictates otherwise. Whether or not he could deflect it barehanded is another matter altogether. I believe he could probably deflect it as Yoda did the first time in AotC, that is to say that he might be able to redirect it away from himself, basically to block it. I do not think he could reflect it back upon Sidious, as Yoda did to both Dooku and Sidious.

And, just so everyone knows, I am a Luke fanboy, and have been since '77. And I am damned proud of it.

 

Luke didn't block Sidious lightning or attempt any effort at resistance because that was a specific plot point. It was only by NOT fighting that Luke finally became a Jedi, and awoke the long dead spirit of Anakin Skywalker. Had Luke resisted, Anakin would never have resurfaced.
Lucas says the Jedi should "love everyone, even Palpatine." By even engaging in battle, combat, or war, which are exclusively tools of the Sith, the Jedi had already lost. Lack of understanding and wisdom in the Force led to the Jedi's undoing. Luke by refusing to fight further and abandoning his hatred, became the ideal example of everything the Force wanted a Jedi to be. Non-violence. Love. very undramatic and seemingly simple concepts, lacking conflict, which is why there is no story after ROTJ. ALL is well in the universe.

 

I'm tired of all these "beard" haters, so lets just set the record straight. Obi-Wan can beat anyone. Sidious, fully realized Anakin, Yoda, Mace, anyone. Hell, had Obi-Wan have wanted to, he could even have blown up the entire Death Star by himself using the force! Seriously! So stop with the beard bashing, and give the MAN, and yes he's the MAN, the respect he deserves.

 

No Yadda, I wasn't joking. I addressed the Force throw issue earlier.
Yoda hurled Sidious all the way across the room with a Force throw.
Obi-Wan hurled Grievous all the way across the hanger with a Force throw.
Maul hurled Obi-Wan into a pit with a Force throw.
Dooku just a few seconds prior had Force thrown Obi-Wan.

None of these characters at these times were knocked unconscious ,simply because they didn't hit their head on a rail. I see no mystery or ambiguity in that observation. Obi-Wan hit his head that second time. Hard. It knocked him out. Suppose Yoda had knocked Sidious out with his Force throw? I had addressed this in an earlier post, it isn't too far back.