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Topic:
Hey!
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/11 4:25pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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I went out to lunch at a fast-food restaurant today. Right then I had a thought; that we throw things out once we're done with the. I agree with Bowen that people do not seem to care about the future. Outside of college and retirement, people really don't care enough about one another. With gas prices soaring, there needs to be an alternative source of fuel. However, nothing that scientists can come up with is much better than gasoline in terms of shorter supply or other environmental hazards. It is just an uphill battle.
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Blue and yellow make a green lightsaber. How do you get red out of blue?
Jedi Master in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander-in-Chief of the Rebel Alliance
Former Commander of Phoenix Squadron
SWC Senator of Ryloth
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crashdown
Title: Oregon FanForce Former CR
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/11 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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Bowen, you know me, I am very liberal. I am also very concerned with population growth. But you, as a conservative, should know that our entire economy is based on economic and population growth. About 10 years ago, when our population looked like is was going to get near zero growth, there were many economists concerned about our long term economic future. Essentially, without more people, consumption would stabilize, and our economy would slow. Our entire economy is based on the idea of greater and greater consumption, and without more people we can not have this greater consumption. I personally, do not believe in this system, it is unsustainable. But this is what we have, and what our governmental and corporate leaders (mostly conservative leaders) rely on.
I find it funny that conservatives are so anti immigration. It is widely believed that without the increased consumption brought about by immigrants (legal and illegal), our economy would have stagnated long ago. Haven't you wondered why conservative politicians make such a big deal about illegal immigration during election years, but then are generally quit about it the rest of the time. It's because they know that without illegal immigration, and the increased population/consumption, our economy would be doomed. It's the corporations that run our government, and they say "keep the population growth going, no matter how it happens".
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"The Jedi's true enemy is the jungle"
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Bowen
Registered:
Sep '99
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Date Posted:
6/11 9:47pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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To be honest, Crashdown, I don't want to seem pessimistic or negative but I don't see any way that the future is going to be especially great without some major road bumps. I mean yeah, of course you're right, if you have no population growth you have slow economic growth, because population increases drive real estate prices (greater density in desirable areas, etc.), consumption, etc. But the problem is that reality, that lifestyle, is not sustainable ultimately. It's a major concern because it's not like, "Well yeah in 500 years, we're in trouble but oh well." No, not oh well, we're seriously talking about a maximum of 20 years before we're in big, big trouble. An analogy was used that is very accurate -- while a 200 pound person may have 140 pounds of water in body weight, it doesn't require losing all 140 to die. That's our issue -- if we're pumping 85 million gallons of oil per day on average, and that dips to 75 million per day, but our consumption has risen to 90 million barrels per day, can you imagine? Right now we have a 1-2 million barrel surplus of barrels pumped per day compared to used, and any amount less than +5 is considered a bit nerve-racking to economists, because all it takes is one war or one crisis or whatever and supply is no longer outpacing demand. So if you take the situation I mentioned, you have a serious, serious problem. Already the gas at my station here in L.A. hit $4.85 today! Almost $5 per gallon.
We simply cannot support our way of living, with as many people as we have today, let alone how many we'll have ten years from now, unless we make changes. Some of these changes are going to hurt a lot of people financially, and I'm not sure that's avoidable. I'm sorry nobody wants to change their lifestyle, I don't want to change mine either, but I'd rather change and adapt than face a serious crisis where we have the end of industrialized society as we know it because oil becomes so scarce that our agriculture suffers, and our food output is down, then we have starvation, which leads to unemployment and civil unrest, and that causes riots, which leads to anarchy, etc. It's that bad of a downward spiral unless a lot of smart people can come together and start coming up with some solutions. Not ten years from now, not a year from now, not tomorrow, but today! That means I think there needs to be even harsher regulations on MPG usage, like no cars can be on the road in 2015 that don't get 25 miles per gallon or better. I'm sorry that sucks for people who don't have the money to get a new car, but then we have to figure out a way to give tax breaks or something, I don't know, the point is we can't keep using up gas in ways that make no sense. For instance, we understand that we need to use gas right now for most farms, and that bio fuel or whatever takes land space to grow, that takes away from being able to grow food, so at least we should try to save gas where it's easiest to do so -- on the road. It's hard to get by without using oil for manufacturing and whatnot, at least right now, but it's not hard to get away from oil for driving most cars. That new supercar that just came out, the one Clooney had on order and that's sold out until 18 months from now, that car is like 0 to 60 in 3.5, remarkably fast, not a huge top speed (like 120), but a great car overall and it can go up to 225 miles on one charge. The battery lasts 150,000 miles I think they said before it needs replacing, which is again quite good. Right now that stuff is more expensive, like Blu-ray players, but when mass production starts I would think it would be more affordable for all.
Also one thing must be done, that is my conclusion after reading these articles -- farming needs to be local again. We can't be criss-crossing the country to ship everything in trucks that burn so much oil, we have to have support for farming in local areas so that what is grown near there can support the populace.
It's a very tough situation, it takes some very smart people to get a lot of these issues resolved. I'm not sure they all can be, but humanity usually finds a way.
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Author of Anticipation: The Real Life Story of Star Wars: Episode I -- The Phantom Menace http://www.AnticipationBook.com And Revenge: The Real Life Story of Star Wars: Episode III -- Revenge of the Sith http://www.Episode3Book.com
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Larena_Jade
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:31am
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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crashdown posted:
I find it funny that conservatives are so anti immigration.
Hey man, I might consider myself conservative and I say "Let them in!" 
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My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But, ah my foes, and oh, my friends---
It gives a lovely light!
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AramysStrael
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:04pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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Man... all this just gave me a headache.
Population this, immigration that. Sure, let them in..... I don't have a problem with immigrants. But become legal citizens like the rest of us, that is all I ask. And is that too much to ask for? I certainly don't think so.
- Bill
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"In for a micron, in for a meter. No one makes a victim of folks I'm sworn to protect."
Corran Horn
Corellian Security
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:43pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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While it is true that illegal immigrants should try to become citizens, it would be even better if we could help Mexico become more industrious and prosperous. That way, less people will have to immigrate here, and maybe they could make more money and live comfortably there instead of risking themselves here, where they aren't wanted by the general population. It's just sad commentary on the state of the world right now.
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Blue and yellow make a green lightsaber. How do you get red out of blue?
Jedi Master in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander-in-Chief of the Rebel Alliance
Former Commander of Phoenix Squadron
SWC Senator of Ryloth
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crashdown
Title: Oregon FanForce Former CR
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/12 1:24pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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Well, we are definitely seeing a change in the world now. China and India are growing exponentially, using more and more resources, which drives up costs for us. This is not their fault, it's just supply and demand. For more than 60 years, the US has thrived by using and exploiting resources from other less wealthy countries. But now the rest of the world is catching up, and growing. They now want some of the same resources we have been taking for granted for decades.
In the past, when we had recessions like the one we are in now, they were temporary corrections, mainly caused by imbalances that needed, and could be, corrected. But today I see our recession as the result of the worlds competition for resources. And this will not end. We will slowly (perhaps rapidly) loss our hold on the world resources, and we will fall lower and lower as a world power. It's the fall of Rome all over again.
Unfortunately, we can't Spend or Grow ourselves out of this one this time. The more we spend, the more we buy world goods, and the more other world economies grow. This causes them to use more recourses, taking away even more recourses from the US. It's all globalization, we are all now connected.
The truth is in a world of limited resources, having the entire world prosperous is not possible. We either assume the there will be countries and peoples who remain poor, with a few rich. Or we accept the fact that the rich countries will have to loss some (or much) of it's wealth to allow poorer economies to grow. Unfortunately, at this point in history, we don't have the power to choose which option we like best, it's being chosen for us. The only way we could possibly alter the results is if we start playing dictator (i.e. George W. Bush) and force other countries to accept our dominance. But, alas, I don't even think that would help at this point.
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"The Jedi's true enemy is the jungle"
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/12 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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Good point. I never thought about it that way; consumerism is taking its toll on the world.
-----signature-----
Blue and yellow make a green lightsaber. How do you get red out of blue?
Jedi Master in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander-in-Chief of the Rebel Alliance
Former Commander of Phoenix Squadron
SWC Senator of Ryloth
Link to Senate Blog in Profile!
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Bowen
Registered:
Sep '99
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Date Posted:
6/12 9:00pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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The Iraq tactics, however, will become more prominent in the future. We won't have liberal presidents if gas hits $10 per gallon, mark my words. The only solution to that is war -- you have to take those resources by force of arms, control the supply, and secure a future for our economy and our way of life, or just accept falling into third world country status. That won't happen without a fight. This is America. I'm not saying it's "right" to exert our force on other countries, but it's necessary that we do that if there's no other choice. If it's total ruination of our way of life or use force to take what we have to in order to survive, well, there's no choice at all. It's a bad situation, between two bad options.
The Iraq war did not help situations, though, cost too much money, it's a huge burden on America now.
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Author of Anticipation: The Real Life Story of Star Wars: Episode I -- The Phantom Menace http://www.AnticipationBook.com And Revenge: The Real Life Story of Star Wars: Episode III -- Revenge of the Sith http://www.Episode3Book.com
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AramysStrael
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
6/12 9:58pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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JEDIGUNSHIP posted:
While it is true that illegal immigrants should try to become citizens, it would be even better if we could help Mexico become more industrious and prosperous. That way, less people will have to immigrate here, and maybe they could make more money and live comfortably there instead of risking themselves here, where they aren't wanted by the general population. It's just sad commentary on the state of the world right now.
Umm.... we are doing that already. Ever wonder why some products say "Made in Mexico"? That is usually an American company that has built a factory or manufacturing plant for the sole purpose of helping to elevate their country to the next level. Sure there is something to be said about companies outsourcing for the sake of building their profit margins, but there is the side benefit of providing jobs to the locals, which boosts their own economy.
- Bill
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"In for a micron, in for a meter. No one makes a victim of folks I'm sworn to protect."
Corran Horn
Corellian Security
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/13 12:03pm
Subject:
RE: Hey!
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You can see the economic growth in both ways; just that it always seems to hurt the common person who is caught in the cycle. They are always the ones who don't benefit.
-----signature-----
Blue and yellow make a green lightsaber. How do you get red out of blue?
Jedi Master in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander-in-Chief of the Rebel Alliance
Former Commander of Phoenix Squadron
SWC Senator of Ryloth
Link to Senate Blog in Profile!
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