Insider #80 to feature Mandalorian article, Yo Joe!

Edited: Because after DM2 edited out his message, it didn't make any sense .

 

Hey RainbowDroideka! Thanks for stopping by the thread after your long hiatus from the boards. Thank you for the kind words on the Mando piece.

?Now that I've finally gotten to the end, I have a few questions. Forgive me if any of these has been addressed already, like I said, I've been *skimming* the thread .

1) This is pretty mundane, but it's been bugging me a little bit (I'm one of those people who reads out-loud in my head): how is "Alpha-Ø2" intended to be pronounced??

That?s a great question RD. The Ø is technically what is called a diphthong, a combination of two different vowels pronounced as one?in this case an o and e. An approximation of the Ø sound would be the oo sound in a word like ?choose.? The Ø can also be represented by the character ö, as in Tlön.

That said, when I used the Ø character for Alpha-Ø2, I was going for image association. Given established naming conventions for ARC troopers, I wanted to establish visually that Spar was a defective clone. Ø works as a zero, but it also looks like any of a million signs that something is cancelled, illegal, or unlawful, ?no smoking? signs being one of the most obvious examples.

Having just been asked how to pronounce the name of a character in another article of mine (this time the Grand Admiral Josef Grunger), I?ll answer again that I?m fairly open as to how people want to pronounce Alpha-Ø2. My own name is often pronounced two different ways, and even the names Leia and Han are pronounced differently throughout the original trilogy.

?2) Was it intentional that the article didn't finish explaining what happened on Shogun? Is this one of the things that will be covered in the future??

Yes, it certainly was intentional to leave the Shogun conflict a bit in the dark. The purpose it two fold, creating suspense in the text, and also leaving things open enough to spin a good yarn in the future.

?3) Are we assuming that "Jaster" in the beginning of the TotBH story is really Boba, and not actually Jaster himself? Because it seems a bit of a coincidence that both Jaster and Boba would have both been kicked out of the Journeymen after killing a corrupt superior.?

I agree with you. I do believe, however, that done properly, a strong writer could take advantage of this coincidence to tell a powerful psychological/metafictional story about this anomalous period in Boba's life.

Take care,
Abel

 

Hmm.. ok I see now the difficulty of combining Mandalore an Jasters group.

BUT... I assume then that Jaster had access to other Mandalorian worlds in the sector. The Mandalore we know, together with its government doesn´t seem powerful enough to rule the mandaloran sector, something else has to be sector capital, maybe Jaster had connections there. Concord Dawn maybe? I know it is a farmer world. Kuar? Ordo?


About Mandalore the First, the legend and Mandalore the Indomitable: They weren´t the same, I think it is better to think of the dates unclear.. like both dating sources useing different year lengths f.e.
Mandalorian years compared to galactic standard year.^^ maybe that solves this.
The Guide states the date as a fact, but in reality it isn´t! Like real history books only give assumptions on when something was, until someone finds out they are wrong and corrects them, happens often. The same with the legend, legends are approximately, and legends use even more the cultures time instead of official standard time. Mandalorian Years!

 

"BUT... I assume then that Jaster had access to other Mandalorian worlds in the sector. The Mandalore we know, together with its government doesn´t seem powerful enough to rule the mandaloran sector, something else has to be sector capital, maybe Jaster had connections there. Concord Dawn maybe? I know it is a farmer world. Kuar? Ordo?"

Or that the Sector has dwindled so much that all the planets now govern themselves. Meaning Mandalore is just planet at this time, with it's surround system. Then when Fenn takes over he takes it ALL back: Planet,System,Sector.

 

wasn´t that the comic where he met vader for the first time? Enemy of the Empire was the title I think. set quite some time before ANH

 

"No Disintegrations, Please," a flashback story from Adventure Journal # 14, written by one Paul Danner. Great story.

 

It was also one of the stories in Tales From the New Republic. And I agree that it was a good one!

 

Thanks for addressing my questions, Abel.


"I agree with you. I do believe, however, that done properly, a strong writer could take advantage of this coincidence to tell a powerful psychological/metafictional story about this anomalous period in Boba's life."

I can see what you mean. I can also see how such a coincidence could also be a large part of the reason people thought Boba and Jaster were the same person (i.e. they heard the same story about both people, and assumed that it was actually just one story and one person).

 

Jort wrote:
?Abel, do you have any idea when we will learn more of those upcoming Mandalorian stories??

Between now and next year, I believe.

Leto II wrote:
?You mean, as in post-Episode III stuff??

Implant.

DarthMane2 wrote:
?The article says there were was no leader of the Mandalorian Mercs until Jaster.?

There is no leader in the sense that all the Mandalorians are not following a single individual until Jaster. But the article never says that there was no Mandalore during this time. In Mandalore Canderous we have a perfect example of this only apparent contradiction.

?So what happened to the Crusaders??

The surviving Neo-Crusaders died or became something else.

Charlemagne19 wrote:
?The entire point of the article is pretty much Jaster is Mandalore.?

That?s correct Charlemagne. Jaster is the clear successor to the Mandalore title. To clarify, Jaster was a Mandalorian Merc (an official title that the Mandalorian shocktroopers never used for themselves) but an honorable man. Jaster reformed the Mandalorians warriors, calling them the *True* Mandalorians. This official title may have meant nothing alone except that we have the clearly dishonorable Death Watch to contrast them with.

?Because Mandalorians don't live on Mandalore. It's like saying that the only Vikings are people from Scandanavia even if a bunch of guys are looting and pillaging in the name of Odin. Its furthermore saying that the Scandanavians are by nature vIkings.?

This is more or less correct, certainly insofar as Jaster and Jango?s True Mandalorians are concerned.

?Its too bad we scared away the author.?

Still here.

Take care,
Abel

 

"There is no leader in the sense that all the Mandalorians are not following a single individual until Jaster. But the article never says that there was no Mandalore during this time. In Mandalore Canderous we have a perfect example of this only apparent contradiction."

So you imply there are 20 Mandalore's walking about? Article says their was no dominant leader, a Mandalore is a dominante leader. That's why he is called Lord Mandalore, leader of the Mandalorians. Not tribe leader.

You might also imply that because of Canderous there are still Crusaders under Mandalore during the time's before Jaster

 

What he is saying is that despite the fact that various Mandalorian Mercs (unofficial title, right Mr. Pena? that was just a typo in your last message I assume?) tried to unite and lead the clans, starting with Canderous, these Mandalorians, regardless of whether they utilized the title of Mandalore, ultimately failed to unite the clans and lead the Mandalorians as a whole.

Then Jaster came along and succeeded in uniting the clans, with the exception of a few individuals (not whole clans) that wanted nothing to do with honor and started the Death Watch. Thus Jaster was the first Mandalore to lead all the clans, thus Jaster was the first true leader of the Mandalorians since the Mandalorian Wars ended.

But please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Pena.

 

So from what I understand of the article, Jaster actually held more comprehensive control over the Mandalorians than Canderous did.

 

Don't forget, they did live thousands of years apart, in different times and places.

 

Reverend_Tegoth wrote:
?Here is my very simplified understanding of how the Mandalorian history works out between the Sith War and Jango??

That?s a fair summary Reverend.

Mathrew Trias wrote:
?It's possible that the domesticated Mandalorians from Mandalore no longer wanted anything to do with the Warrior tradition that Clan worlds from the former Mandalorian Empire(can we call it that?) still practiced, having been so devastatingly integrated into the more civil traditions of the greater Galaxy. Therefore, when Jaster reunited the clans, that did not include the population of Mandalore.

It was left to Spar and Shysa to return that tradition to Mandalore.?



DarthMane2 wrote:
?And I'm saying that I bet Mandalore the First will become the conquer of Mandalore. This article is the defining Mandalore source for the LFL holocron.?

You?re probably right, Nuke. The GTSWUs frequently revise their entries with each succeeding edition. Ideally, later editions must be taken with a grain of salt and with an eye toward why entries were revised.

Take care,
Abel

 

>>What he is saying is that despite the fact that various Mandalorian Mercs (unofficial title, right Mr. Pena? that was just a typo in your last message I assume?) tried to unite and lead the clans, starting with Canderous, these Mandalorians, regardless of whether they utilized the title of Mandalore, ultimately failed to unite the clans and lead the Mandalorians as a whole.<<

Yes and so did Jaster. Though Canderous did have success, no he didn't reunite all the clans, and that may as well be a failure. But his rebuilding of the crusaders was no failure, all of those under him honored and obeyed their Mandalore. Canderous isn't like Jaster, he isn't just a Mandalore, Canderous is Lord Mandalore. He is a WarLord.

>>Then Jaster came along and succeeded in uniting the clans, with the exception of a few individuals (not whole clans) that wanted nothing to do with honor and started the Death Watch. Thus Jaster was the first Mandalore to lead all the clans, thus Jaster was the first true leader of the Mandalorians since the Mandalorian Wars ended.<<

Well from the implications from the article and Open Seasons, seem as Vilza had more than a few individuals. So he did have A lot of Mandalorians. So in this sense Jaster is a failure, he didn't reunite all the Clans.

 

DarthMane2 said:

"Well from the implications from the article and Open Seasons, seem as Vilza had more than a few individuals. So he did have A lot of Mandalorians. So in this sense Jaster is a failure, he didn't reunite all the Clans."

Well, since the article specifically says that Jaster DID unite all of the clans, obviously no complete clan joined Death Watch, and it was, as I already said, apparently individuals from a variety of clans that joined.

Jaster succeeded where Canderous ultimately failed, and was the first Mandalore since the Mandalorian Wars to command all of the clans.

 

Jaster united all the Merc clans, not the crusader clans. Those clans went back to Mandalore and became domesticated.

The crusaders were still under a Lord Mandalore...

And how in the hell do you know that Vilza didn't have clans under his belt? Either way Jaster is still a failure, because both sides in the civil war seemed to be evenly matched. Why couldn't the great Jaster make all his Mandalorians happy?

Also Jaster wasn't even a Lord Mandalore, he was a Gang Leader Mandalore. At least Canderous had the power that came with the title.

EDIT: Canderous also didn't lead his Mandalorians into a civil war that ended up destroying all the MAndalorian Warriors.

 

DarthMane2 said:

"Jaster united all the Merc clans, not the crusader clans."

Star Wars Insider #80, Page 27:

"When Mereel fought tooth-and-nail to become reigning Mandalore and unite the disparate clans, his ideals became the foundation of a new creed."

So it's very clearly stated that ALL Mandalorian clans were united by Jaster.


"The crusaders were still under a Lord Mandalore..."

Nope, Jaster was Lord Mandalore and all of the Mandalorian Warriors that didn't splinter off into Death Watch followed him.


"And how in the hell do you know that Vilza didn't have clans under his belt?"

Because the article states that Jaster united the clans, therefore there can't be any whole clans in the Death Watch.


"Either way Jaster is still a failure, because both sides in the civil war seemed to be evenly matched. Why couldn't the great Jaster make all his Mandalorians happy?"

He couldn't make the Death Watch happy because they didn't want to have any honor. Would it have been better if Jaster had compromised the honor of the Mandalorians to keep the individuals in Death Watch happy? Is that what Canderous would have done?

Anyway, Jaster had the loyalty of the clans, I'm sure the loyalty of honorless ex-Mandalorians wasn't high on his priority scale.


"Also Jaster wasn't even a Lord Mandalore, he was a Gang Leader Mandalore. At least Canderous had the power that came with the title."

Are we even reading the same article? Jaster united and ruled over the clans, how could he not be Mandalore?


"Canderous also didn't lead his Mandalorians into a civil war that ended up destroying all the MAndalorian Warriors."

Better to die with their honor intact then to follow the honorless ways of the Death Watch - that's the Mandalorian way.

 

And for the record, I think Canderous is a great character and one of the best reasons to play KOTOR and KOTOR 2. I just think that, despite their other similarities, Canderous and Jaster are opposites of a sort when it comes to their part in Star Wars.

Canderous is pretty important to the history of the galaxy, due to his involvement in the Mandalorian Wars and his associations with Revan and the Exile. Comparitively he isn't all that important in Mandalorian history - he's just the first of many Mandalore's and other leaders that try desperately to unite the clans again.

Jaster, on the other hand, is pretty unimportant to the history of the galaxy. The Mandalorians don't get into any wars that we know of while he's around, and he doesn't really get involved with anyone terribly important. Jaster successfully uniting the clans and creating the code that would go on to inspire Spar makes him pretty important in Mandalorian history, however.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Both cool for different reasons.

 

So were Mandalore and Mandallia members of the Old Republic? It mentions Fenn joining the CIS for a just cause, so I figure they were.

We also know Fenn allied himself with the Alliance of Free Planets [MC]. DId Mandalore Sector join the New Republic?

Facts? Theories? Hypotheses?

 

I think, yes yes and yes, after the Ruusan reformation they were members of the Republic, and later joined the new republic keeping a big portion of independence though, like the Hapes Cluster did, too.

and about Canderous as Mandalore trying to unite the clans but failing...

the mandalorian wars were long time ago, and right after it, we have mandalorians disarmed. it was stated a large part went home and settled down keeping quiet. So far for domestication.
Others became mercs, as canderous himself did, though tinking the merc ways dishonorable. he was not the type to stay home and settle down.

So I believe when he gathered some mandalorians and even few clans under him as Lord Mandalore, the already domesticated mandalorians didn´t join him. and when Canderous had achieved much helping revan and the jedi against the ancient sith empire (Kotor3), he will not succeed in getting all clans under his rule. but after his rule is over, someone else will take over and these canderous mandalorians will turn more and more into the mercs Jaster later on leads. because others after canderous might not share his view on honor.

I think we don´t need 2 waves of domestication for the mandalorians, 1 right after the mandalorian wars are over and another after canderous. canderous view of honor would have lived on for few decades after him and then would be gone, the new sith wars later on would have done the rest to change the mandalorian army that still wasn´t domesticated.. becoming mercs. and jaster then united the mercs, all clans.

because.. canderous saw the merc ways of the mandalorians, and first when he appeared as Lord mandalore they stopped them, but if candalore is no more, who nows if they won´t return to these ways.

 

Star Wars Insider #80, Page 27:

>>"When Mereel fought tooth-and-nail to become reigning Mandalore and unite the disparate clans, his ideals became the foundation of a new creed."

So it's very clearly stated that ALL Mandalorian clans were united by Jaster.<<

Yes he reunited the Mercenary clans that never followed another Lord Mandalore.


>>Nope, Jaster was Lord Mandalore and all of the Mandalorian Warriors that didn't splinter off into Death Watch followed him.<<

No Jaster was not Lord Mandalore. He was a gang leader Mandalore. He had no power except over those Mandalorians that were mercenaries. Even Abel made this clear that JAster was a Mandalorian Merc. A Mandalorian Merc who reunited the Mandalorian Merc clans. The other Mandalorians went on and died off in a way suitable for them.


>>"And how in the hell do you know that Vilza didn't have clans under his belt?"

Because the article states that Jaster united the clans, therefore there can't be any whole clans in the Death Watch.<<

And this means what. Just because he united the desperate Clans, doens't mean he united all of them.

>>"Either way Jaster is still a failure, because both sides in the civil war seemed to be evenly matched. Why couldn't the great Jaster make all his Mandalorians happy?"

He couldn't make the Death Watch happy because they didn't want to have any honor. Would it have been better if Jaster had compromised the honor of the Mandalorians to keep the individuals in Death Watch happy? Is that what Canderous would have done?

Anyway, Jaster had the loyalty of the clans, I'm sure the loyalty of honorless ex-Mandalorians wasn't high on his priority scale.<<

Canderous ruled with an iron fist. Jaster was weak he couldn't bring the Death Watch to heel.


>>"Also Jaster wasn't even a Lord Mandalore, he was a Gang Leader Mandalore. At least Canderous had the power that came with the title."

Are we even reading the same article? Jaster united and ruled over the clans, how could he not be Mandalore?<<

He can't be lord Mandalore. Lord Mandalore is the rule of the Mandalorians, of ALL Mandalorians. Leader of the SEctor of Mandalore, and all planet within it. Jaster didn't have such, power and was not the cerremonial leader like the Mandalorians of old. Canderous who wore the crown of the Mandalore was.


>>"Canderous also didn't lead his Mandalorians into a civil war that ended up destroying all the MAndalorian Warriors."

Better to die with their honor intact then to follow the honorless ways of the Death Watch - that's the Mandalorian way.<<

Actually it's safe to say that Canderous Mandalorians are the same Mandalorians that we saw in Marvel. Decendants, and domesticated.

 

Mane... Canderous mandalorians arn´t the domestiaced ones, because those never joined Canderous. canderous united some mercs, shaping them to his believes, but Jaster was a true Lord Mandalore and united all clans, while Candeorus just had one of the merc clans, that later forgot his anti-merc rules after his reign.