Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Gimme some time, please, Senator. Enormous amount of stuff to take in -- Dan and I are compiling the potential errata and questions, though. So please keep 'em coming.

 

Knowing the ages are off is... well good since it created more headaches than it did help to determine the placements. Though what does this mean for post-NJO stuff that is based on NJO ages?

I know it is covered in some posts here and maps in the Atlas somehow but... can somebody please post for me a short rundown of the most important NJO dates and birthdays? Too tired right now to extrapolate everything myself.

Nathan, if ages are off in the NJO, how are the birthdays of characters kept that take place within some of the novels and are seen in there? The month of birth would be very off then or the whole birthday would not make sense if we retcon some of the ages. Hmm?

I'm actually kind of surprised that the ages being off wasn't better known. When those books arrived and the wrong ages showed up, there were a lot of us checking in with Sue Rostoni and others on the VIP thread over at StarWars.com to confirm that they were errors, not changes. I thought that was old news by now.

I'm not sure what issue there would be with any other post-NJO stories. Unless that story is ONLY dated by a character's age, the stories are all given a proper timeline placement already. We don't have any "wandering" stories set in the post-NJO period outside of possibly infinities stories, do we?

On the latter point, it is extremely rare to see a character have a birthday in a SW novel. Most of our characters simply are noted as having new ages at some point after that birthday happens. In theory, though, authors would've known that the twins were born sometime mid-9 ABY, Anakin was born sometime in extremely late 10 ABY or very early 11 ABY, etc. If an author was writing a story that takes place very early in a year and tried to assume the character had a birthday at that point in the year, then that was an error on that author's part from the get-go, not a new problem. That is where age references start to get dicey, because most authors just take the year a character was born, then add the difference to the year of their story. Well, that works if everyone is born on the very first day of the year, but if a person is born any later in the year, then you run the risk of giving them an age that wouldn't be appropriate until later in that year.

Example: Jacen and Jaina are obviously, even without an exact date, born at least a little while into 9 ABY. Let's call that Day J. In subsequent years, any day after "Day J" would include them having had a birthday that year, so just doing a quick bit of subtraction works ("They were born in 9 ABY, and I'm writing a story in 20 ABY, so 20-9=11, so the kids are 11 now.").

However, if the story is set before "Day J" on that year's calendar, the twins would NOT have had a birthday yet, so that subtraction would end up with the character being said to be a year older in whole numbers than they should be at that point. Unfortunately, that's what the vast majority of authors do. Since there are only a few characters whose births have been pinned down to a given month, most authors don't bother checking "time of year," just "year of birth," and you end up with plenty of erroneous ages, usually only a year off from the actual age.

(That wasn't, by the way, how the NJO dates got fouled up. That was more than just that common error.)

So, I was born in 1979. Someone writes a story about me, set in 2009. They do the subtraction, and there we go: I'm 30 . . . but I'm not. I'm 29. My birthday isn't until October. Such is the fallacy of trying to date ages by year only, but that's what most Star Wars authors do. Frankly, though, the story is almost never contingent upon ages to determine placement.

The same then goes for the birthdays. If an author wants to toss a birthday into a story, they are usually assuming that there's no info on that birthday, just a general time of year or only a year might be known. Generally, that ends up not matching up with what we actually see with birthdates, which are, at least in the Holocron from what I can tell, based specifically on when these

 

Ah, crap. Amy's going to kill me.

Dan

 

Wait, maybe not! Amar's in the appendix. Inner Rim, O-10!

Dan

 

I'm working through the Atlas bit by bit, and aside from the Delaya thing (it's supposed to be an industrial world in "Rebel Force: Hostage") I found no 'mistakes' so far.

But there's one thing I didn't find so thrilling, and that's the fact that the Appendix with all the planets doesn't include a page number for the map where they can be found (like, Zigoola is supposed to be in U-6, but only one map actually shows it, and it's not the main map). Same with Kesh... I understand it's impossible to include all planets on one map, but then it should at least have been possible to point out on which of the smaller scale maps it can be found, so you don't have to search through every map in the whole book.

 

Not all the planets in the Index have points on a map somewhere in the Atlas. Planets that were on previously-existing "regional maps" - for instance like the Tapani Sector, Elrood Sector, or the Kathol region - are just going to be in the vicinity of the most well-known worlds on the map.

 

Indeed. I'd hazard a guess that half to two-thirds of the planets in the index show up on none of the maps at all. That's not a bug, it's a feature; getting all of the planets on a map would have been reading them unwieldy, and probably would have doomed the project.

 

Ultimate Alien Anthology established it was in the Core Worlds. Not sure where Wookieepedia got "Mid Rim" from. (And in fact, it lists the Farrfin system and Farrfin Sector as in the Core.)

 

my memory must be faulty on Farrfin...

so Amar = Amara hmmm good

Dan: OK, I researched this via Wookieepedia. Apparently the Encyclopedia uses the spelling "Amar" but Gamer used the spelling "Amara"; Gamer indicated Amara was near Stenness/Amria. I assumed Amar and Amara are the same?

Jason: Not trying to rush anyone! Just making sure those questions didn't get overlooked, as this thread is growing so fast!

For everyone who likes aliens, here is my research notes on new and obscure aliens from Atlas and their homeworlds. So far this only covers the text; I still have no analyzed the Appendix (but I will!). I did cheat and look u one thing in the Appendix: Dan snuck in Porpor, which I am sure he means to be the homeworld of the Porporites from NECh, the species of cetaceans wiped out in Gank Massacres! Here are the notes, pattern "[homeworld]--[native species]":

1) Jilrua--"towering war-like species"
2) Xolu--Yahk-Tosh
3) Near Pando--extinct builders of the Malabar Construct
4) Saqqar--"now vanished civilization"
5) Usk--"extinct slave species"
6) Moralan--Moralan
7) Zisia--Zisian
8) Cyborrea--"client species"
9) Ilos--Ilosian
10) Tal Nami--Tal Nami
11) Alee--Vippit
12) Langoona--Langoonan
13) Pybus--makers of "ruins" [these ruins might be Hutt-made?]
14) Huloon--Huloon
15) Botor--Botori
16) Ktil--Ktilac
17) Boz Pity--Gargantelle
18) Hettitie--Sernpidalan
19) Shadda-Bi-Boran--Shadda-Bi-Boran
20) Bedlam Pulsar--Bedlam Spirit
21) Imynusoph--Imyni
22) Jellyfish Cove--Mikan
23) Nimm--"depopulated" [of a native species?]
24) Farana--Ocsin
25) Pal Goral--Palarian
26) Arkuda--Arkudan
27) Xochtl--Bagmim
28) Povanarian--Povanar
29) Tinovant--Trinovate
30) Kli'aar--Kli'aari
31) Betshish--"pre-industrial sentients"
32) Mannova--"sardonic, gray-furred species"
33) Barison--Barisoni
34) Kalishik--T'sarki
35) B'trilla--B'trillan
36) Orn Kios--Ornki
37) Delphon--"primitive cultures"
38) Kedorzha--Kedorzhan
39) Shoon--"vanished species of gigantic humanoids"
40) Nars--Nartian
41) Kardura--Karduran
42) Dioll--Diollan
43) Zaria--Zarian
44) Zyluria--Zylurian
45) Arporatal-Lanin--Arpor-Lan
46) Okoyal--"quadrupeal native species"

I think I read something in the Atlas about a new felinoid species, but I can't find the reference. If anyone else sees any new species, or new homeworld identifications of knoen species, feel free to share!

 

Can you tell us more about the LFL way of doing things? It is interesting to here how they work and how things differ from fan's way of doing the same thing as a hobby. Anything you dislike or prefer to fans way of thinking?

Another question to everyone: Spacetravel and Standard time is so that you start in place A, travel to place B etc. but WHY is it always sunny DAY when our heroes arrive? Is it so unlikely to have night when arriving?

Last point first: Perhaps people tend to plot their travel so as to arrive during the day. However, we've seen night insertions and such plenty in X-wing novels and such.

As for the first . . . I can only reply based on what I know. I think we, as fans, tend to nitpick and try to figure out every nook and cranny, whereas the LFL approach waits for things to become canonical much of the time. For example, we might to figure out an exact date for a character's birth, but from a canonical standpoint, if all that has been necessary thus far is just a general age, then that's all there would be. If someone later needed to pin it down for a canonical story, they could then pin it down and make it part of canon down the road.

I guess I'd say that fans are more pro-active on the smaller, more nitpicky items, while LFL is more along the lines of being reactive and being a sort of info clearing house. I think the balance is that way because LFL wants to keep from stifling creativity by arbitrarily creating a lot of limitations, just for the sake of making them.

 

also, the more canonical trivia, the more likelihood of continuity errors!

 

Forgive my ignorance, but how do the Separatists and later Imperials reach Ilum, since it takes a "Force-strong" pilot to reach the planet? Do Dooku or his dark Jedi cronies ferry the droids there?

 

It takes "Force-strong pilot" to make the "traditional hyperjump" to Ilum, not to generally reach the planet. Presumably you can't reach it if you don't know the coordinates - which were apparently a Jedi secret - but both Dooku and Palpatine knew the location and could send minions, presumably via other more complicated and slower routes.

 

Ah, I missed the significance of "traditional."

Edit: I'm confused about Kamino and the aiwhas. The Atlas says that the Kaminoans genetically engineered the aiwhas from a species from Naboo. How does this fit with "The Tale of the Aiwha Pod," in the Republic Commando Prima guide, in which an aiwha pod plays a pivotal role in Kaminoan mythology? Do the Kaminoans really believe that one of their own creations went on to kill a demigod within the last few thousand years (perhaps only hundreds, as the creation of the aiwhas isn't dated)?

 

OK, Dan, Jason, I've got one for you; a BIG one, about a BIG swath of territory.

I've long been under the impression that Oversector Outer, being Tarkin's domain, was ruled from Eriadu in the south. Yet, when I look at the map of the Ssi-ruuk and Nagai invasions (p. 194), which is the only map to show Oversector Outer at its largest extent in any of the maps, that territory is way far away from Eriadu, in the northernmost parts of the Outer Rim. I can accept that Ardus Kaine, upon replacing Tarkin, moved the oversector capital from Eriadu to Entralla for reasons of his own; that'd be his right under what I understand a Grand Moff's discretionary powers are. But to move the entire oversector lock, stock and barrel across the Rim? Is that what even happened?

Or is it - as I was led to believe - that Oversector Outer was at one time REALLY big - as big as pretty much the majority of the Outer Rim itself? If so, was there a major restructuring of the oveersectors (by which I mean a major reduction of Oversector Outer and a redistribution of the removed territory among other Moffs and Grand Moffs) after Tarkin was blown up to prevent another loose-cannon technocrat from becoming too powerful and possibly challenging Palpatine? Or was it that the New Republic made lots of headway into the larger Oversector Outer and that was just not incorporated into a map before the one in question?

Maybe I'm all over the map on this one (despite what you think, pun NOT intended), but one or both of you clarify the reasoning behind this? IS there any reasoning behind this?

Thanks for your time in advance.

 

Plaristas, IIRC Kaminoans have been playing with genes since pre-4000 BBC, and Naboo has been known since at least KOTOR times, so that's at least 3 millennia for aiwhas to potentially play into their mythology; indeed the Kaminoans conceivably could have visited Naboo long before the general galaxy did
also, we know aiwhas were domesticated by Gungans as early as circa 4000 BC--cf. the Gallo/Marsune/Rogo conflicts in Galactic Battlegrounds

 

Jason and Dan,

Fantastic work on the Atlas!

It was a huge thrill when my copy finally arrived in New Zealand. I have been reading it slowly, along with the Endnotes. The history of the Senate and sector organization, explanations for why some hyperlanes are faster, breakdowns of the region histories - I know you built this on a lot of pre-established material and hints, but it has come together fantastically. It is the kind of thing where I wonder how we got by without this all together in one place before. The Appendix, of course, is fasctinating, and will make rereading old sources take on a whole new light. Basically, big congratulations on a great product.

Thanks for the mention, too!

~ Eyrezer

 

Jello:

Methinks you're rather putting the cart before the horse, though. You assume that the offensive would have succeeded and then accept its failure as evidence of a failure on Pellaeon's part when no explicit evidence of such a failure exists. At least part of one of the defeats in that last-gasp offensive was because an experimental warship blew up and took out most of the Imperial fleet around it, and unless Pellaeon ordered the EX-F to turn off all its failsafe systems or something, that's hardly a damning mark against the man. That he spent a good chunk of the Galactic Civil War falling back isn't especially compelling either, because the Empire in general spent the majority of its existence after Endor falling back, surrendering, or exploding. But this is neither here nor there, methinks.

The warlords, as I commented earlier, seem different than I had initially imagined. While Zsinj and to a lesser extent Harrsk still seem out-and-out self-proclaimed autocrats, the rest simply seem to have thumbed their collective noses at the sundry executive groups that tried to run the Empire following Palpatine's death. Kaine stands out in particular. So while they're still not exactly playing nicely with others, it doesn't sound as though the majority of them are renouncing their 'Imperialness' so to speak. Considering the egos involved, it's hardly surprising.

I'm not really understanding your thoughts on the Empire post-'Crimson Empire'. There's a central governing body that collapses, but the systems and sectors that it governed remained Imperial and eventually formed a new centralized governmental body. It's constitutionally different from Palpatine's run, but it's still a continuation of the same government... Much like how the Byzantines still considered themselves 'Rome' despite everything.

 

What's this? whoa! whats with Drexel vs Drexel Minor in Appendix???


another thought occurred to me about why post-Coruscant/pre-Byss Imperial Council might not have designated any one world capital...many worlds would probably have wanted the privilege, and if they chose one, they might alienate other fortress worlds, something they could not afford to do, when so many rival allegiances were available

 

This may have been mentioned already, but having just read through the descriptions of pre-Republic galactic civilizations, I'm disappointed that there's nothing on the Force Demons. I've been wanting to know more about them for a long time.

 

Yeah I was hoping for more background on them, this book would have been as good a place as any. At least they listed Bedlam Spirits (Tilotny and friends) as one of the "Ancient Mysteries of the Galaxy"

 

I've been thinking about the possible "capitals" of the Empire between 3-13 AE and here's what I've come up with...

The first is an odd choice - Orinda. It has a strange role in post-Endor history. While some battlefields are chosen by circumstances, not importance, Pellaeon specifically made a push for this system. Why? We know next to nothing about it. My speculation is that it was a world with strong Imperial ties and had been a fortress world, which meant that taking it would be smart strategically - note that the NR left it in his hands rather than try to retake it.
Now, the next leap - if this was the case, looking at the Empire post-Coruscant, it occupies a rather central location for the Imperial remnants outside of the control of the Pentastar Alignment and other fragments.
Checking the map, it looks like that it fell after Thrawn's death. If what was the de facto capital fell to the NR, that could be a compelling reason why the NR no longer considered it much of a threat; they probably assumed the rump Empire would fall apart soon without a central authority of some kind.
Soon afterwards, of course, the Dark Empire arose. The capital - for all intents and purposes - was Byss until its destruction.
Following that, the Crimson Empire's capital as we know was Ord Cantrell, and then a lack of central authority again for a brief time.
We know Bastion was moved to its current location in 13 AE, right about when the last campaigns were fought. So, presumably the previous capital would be in territory lost to the NR. My suggestion? Axxila, a sort-of Eriadu within Pellaeon's control following the resurgence of the Imperials. The planet was lost in the maneuvering that followed, so the capital moved to the current place.