Books The Essential Guide to Warfare by Jason Fry and a pseudonymous Scotsman

Ah, but do you recall another infamous paramilitary taskforce that was assembled to defeat pirates and protect commerce? Remember Ranulph Tarkin's "Republic Army"? While the NEGTC may have thrown another layer of confusion into the ORSF mess, it also reinforces the link between these two groups... but not completely as I'll explain below.

That seems to be a major difference between Ranulph Tarkin's "Republic Army" and the ORSF; a good chunk of the former taskforce came from the Core Worlds while the latter made to made due with what's available in the Outer Rim. As for potential ORSF strongholds, I would throw Christophsis into contention; it's prosperous, close to Hutt Space, and features a society where aliens tend to be among the lower classes.

PS: places like Entralla and future Bastion may have been forcibly conquered by the CIS, and thus be strongholds for Loyalist resistance groups.

 

Nitpick: the passage you refer to was lifted straight from the 1987 SW Sourcebook, 1st Edition. It's on Page 34.

 

Speaking of Command and Control, it is has struck me recently that Star Wars is lacking some sort of AWACS equivalent. While I understand for many missions a capital ship, space station or planetary base would provide Command and Control support, but fighters operating independently (say, as convoy raiders or scouts) would centerally benefit from a mobile support ship.

 

Re: the Vengeance: A variety of thruster sizes versus 13 uniform thrusters, a ventral superstructure that arcs "upwards" versus a ventral superstructure that arcs "downwards", a command tower that looks nothing like the Executor-class's command tower, height/width/length dimensions that look nothing like the Executor-class's. All of this makes this a non-Executor design by default. They are by the very fundamentally different designs not the same class, regardless of "specifications", whatever they may be since the book doesn't specify for the Vengeance. And using author's intent in a debate when you've previously dismissed using author's intent when people with views differing from yours use it in arguments regarding Saxton and the ships he came up with, is really classy.

As Saxton laid out on his fansite and in the official interview on this site, there are many classes of Imperial warships and some that are larger than a common mile-long ISD. As is further reflected in the reference to multiple classes called SSDs by Rebel personnel, as well as the fact that many KDY warship classes were using the standard T-command tower from KDY, another idea originally from his fansite made canon in ITWT and SW:CL. The paragraphs in these two books are clear enough on their own, of course. The fact that the fansite the information is based on, bases its own conclusions on pre-existing official SW books and comics, seems to be a little-known fact, as it's more often than not forgotten when debaters want to minimize Saxton's research in favor of their minimalistic ISD-Executor-nothing-more POV.

As for "older sources", I assume TCSWE travelled over a year back in time, so the Allegiance being an SSD is suddenly retconned away by the SOTGSE in the new future?

Good thing Jason on this very thread doesn't disregard "older sources" so information is excluded, like obscure larger-than-ISD classes that some people seem to dislike from the get-go and actively want to exclude from canon altogether. He even namedropped the very Dorling Kindersley-derived classes that certain people want to desperately forget in favor of the outdated ISD - Executor status quo.

I'm particularly fond of

and I will NOT miss the constant debates on this matter.

See my reference to the SOTGSE. Some SSDs have dozens of hyperwave transceivers added to serve as dedicated communications ships. One main communications ship is described at the battle of Endor in the ROTJ novel and an ISD was retrofitted to also serve as a comm ship in that battle.

 

Most likely, SW pilots are trained so that they can operate without AWACS support if necessary. It's certainly possible since real-life WWII pilots did fine enough without them, and that SW pilots are trained to function effectively in high-ECM combat situations.

EDIT: Can we please NOT bring up the ship class system debate again? We've already wasted several pages laying out our ideas concerning classification. Let's just stick to debating the concept of "specialization", shall we?

 

In the CIS, we see various support ships and space stations, carrier/battleships in the form of the Lucrehulk-class and Trench's dreadnaught, escort and flotilla vessels in the form of the Munificent and Recusant-classes, long-range heavy strike craft in the Subjugator-class and the Shadowblade, several C&C vessels like Grievous's destroyer, mobile shipyards like the Tambor Deep Space Centre. On top of that, the CIS has its network of comm ships in the form of the Munificents.

In the Imperial forces, we also see various support ships and space stations (mainly based on the WEG books, since those were written with a small group of adventurers in mind), escort and flotilla vessels like the Imperial, Victory, Tector, Venator, mainly classes inherited from the Republic, some of which have the annoying catch-all meme of having to do several roles practically at once instead of leaving it to more specialised designs. Then there's carrier/battleships like the Executor, Eclipse, Vengeance and Sovereign, mobile shipyards like the Deep Docks and heavy transports like the FSCV. The Empire has several types of comm ships, including SSD-sized vessels. What it lacks is a described equivilant to the long-range heavy strike craft the CIS had. References to Star Cruisers and Star Battlecruisers larger than Star Destroyers doesn't tell us anything, if they don't follow the roles of historic cruisers and battlecruisers. So in there lies a mystery. Then there's command ships like Giel's which are big, but not Executor-size and command ships like Allegiance, which seems to be Lucrehulk/Separatist Destroyer-scale.

The Rebels are a whole 'nother bag altogether, few in number, short on resources (compared to the Empire). Having to rely more on mid-size cruisers like the MC80 Liberty type as the center of scattered battlegroups, even stationary vessels like repair yards seem to serve this role at times. They employ heavier ships on rare occasions, like captured Lucrehulks used as carriers in long-range strikes and later-generation Bulwarks as large command ships and heavy fire-support even with their known faulty electronics. Even if Ackbar dreams of a heavy dreadnaught to challenge the Empire's Executors, that wouldn't even get off the ground until the New Republic had properly established itself and gotten an increased resource-base.

 

And this is why I hope the ICS guides will be taken by Jason with a grain of salt. It strikes me as hypocritical that the author (and his adherents) will analyze every little detail and scaling issue to support one point, and then turn around and completely ignore what we see on-screen when it suits him.

If Tectors and Imperators and Mandators were running around in force during the Clone Wars, why don't we ever see them? Certainly, the Emperor and Vader liked to ride around in style. Why are they on the bridge of a "lowly" Venator at the end of ROTS

As far as space superiority being necessary - Yes, of course it is. I was just observing that the Republic seems more interested in achieving local space superiority long enough to land troops than they do in going out and killing Separatist fleets. The CIS, on the other hand, experiments with arguably the first dreadnought of the modern era (Malevolence)and is generally much more aggressive about attacking the Republic's space installations. With the exception of the semi-mythic and possibly hyperdriveless Mandator-class, we don't hear about (and never see) the Republic building dedicated brawlers.

As far as the lack of AWACS - I think ECM and jamming play a more important role in starfighter combat than they're often given credit for. It would certainly help explain why most dogfights are (relatively) low-speed, close in (well within visual range) affairs. And when it comes to convoy raiders - maybe the Rebellion didn't have the resources to train and deploy dedicated AWACS craft? Maybe the fighters' own sensors are good enough to do the job by themselves?

 

No.

Jason Fry already wrote about Imperators and Tectors serving in a test run, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Also in force? What do you mean by that? With literally millions of systems and only a handful say of a Mandator class, how's that's supposed to ever be in force anywhere? You'd go for hundreds of thousands of systems without seeing a single one.

No.

Why does Darth Caedus use a lowly ISD and not the Megador, an SSD in his own fleet? Why does Grievous travel in a Munificent frigate and not always a Lucrehulk battleship or a heavy destroyer?

Which leads the the planet being bombarded and their troops dead unless you achieve longterm space superiority. Ever think about that?

No. the CWCG refers to "heavier cruisers and battleships" on the Republic's side, the ROTS:ICS refers to Venators being used for escort duty of Republic battleships, among other assignments, and the usage of individual home fleets entails these ships being nominally part of the Republic Navy either way. There, that's three sources mentioning something you claim never to be mentioned anywhere.

And that's not taking into account the ROTS:ICS and the DeAgnostini Official Vehicles and Vehicles 32 both saying the Venator is much weaker than the Mandator, and is also produced in far greater numbers (logically, it takes longer to build one heavy battleship than one mid-size cruiser).

 

By way of distraction, spent the morning finishing an account of a rather frank discussion between Panaka and Leia at Hosk Station in 5 ABY. It doesn't quite go the way either of them planned, but it was really fun to write.

 

You, sir, deserve a medal. If you didn't already.

 

Both of which, as you've been reminded multiple times, isn't canon.

As has been suggested, it's time to move the discussion onward. If you want to continue the topic, make a new thread, although in the past you've been strangely reluctant to continue outside of this thread for some mysterious reason.

 

Ah, Panaka survives the immediate upheaval on Naboo, huh? Good stuff. I don't suppose there's any kind of retcon for Leia finding out about her possible heritage from the guy?

No.

No.

 

Hmmm.... Palpatine loyalist Moff Panaka? A year after the Battle of Endor?
I recall the Insider article on Galaxies mentioned that Naboo was one of the most heavily guarded worlds outside of the Core during the Imperial Era (due to Palpatine's "summer" palace here). I'm guessing that the fireworks at the end of ROTJ (much like ones on Coruscant) were premature...

 

The Atlas, Jason's previous Essential outing, said as much. The Naboo Rebel uprising was struck down on page 193.

 

You need to start actually reading posts, Tzizvvt78 - do you not understand the difference between clarification and claiming something is canon? I never said Moridin's extraneous comments were canon (the actual text of the SOTG is, though, which again proved my point), but it's nice to finally see you admit that Saxton's aren't.

*shrug* You didn't really address any of my points - but if you don't want to continue the discussion elsewhere, as suggested, that's your choice.

Hardly, I've always been about canon trumping fan speculation, including mine. I expect I'll be "wrong" (if the word has any meaning in discussions about a fictional universe) on a number of topics, and that's fine. I'm not going to ignore it or claim that what's said isn't what's said if it contradicts something I had previously thought. Can you say the same?

 

Taking a look at the maps, Chommell Sector was squarely between the Eriadu Authority and the Lambda Sector warlordship. With the Empire pulling back from the Rim, I wonder if the sector was one of their few footholds left, or Panaka was left to his own devices (I guess we'll find out next August... )

 

I believe someone once suggested Warlord Ric Olié...

 

You know he got his own entry in the NEGC?

Which ends with:
"But Ric Olie knew there would be other opportunities for battle, and over the next few years he showed the galaxy what Bravo Squadron could do."
Well, that was less than helpful...

Maybe like Lando he was able to trade on his participation in a single battle to get a high rank in the military...

 

Jason:

Tzizvvt78: Well, at least on this, I agree with you. DNT is far to late for Leia and Luke to be learning about their heritage, especially since Force Ghost Anakin is presumably floating around somewhere.

Now, on a more grouchy note: Posting an interpretation or idea you don't agree with mean's I'm trolling? Or that you're being strawmanned? My thoughts on this are decidedly unprintable.

I'd be happy to duel this out with you in PMs. As has been noted several times here, this is not necessarily the thread for arguing. We don't want to look nasty in front of the author.

 

Based on what we know, larger warships like retrofitted Lucrehulk-class carriers and Bulwark battlecruisers are few and far in between. For all practical purposes, the Rebel Alliance fleet's backbone were MC80 Liberty-type and the un-named "wingless Liberty-type" Star Cruisers.

(Side note: Jason, might I request that you formally identify a class name for the wingless Liberty cruisers at Endor? Based on the movie, these cruisers are the most numerous in Ackbar's fleet. Maybe call them Reef Home-type, which is kinda already the unoffical fan name for the cruisers?)

Back to Tziz. Your point about scattered battle groups is a good one. I really hope to see some elaboration of the "roving battle lines" that Ackbar maintained during the GCW. Per the old RASB, Mon Mothma directed Ackbar to keep up to 25% of the fleet detached from the main fleet as roving battle lines. Each battle line had anywhere from 3-10 cruisers, though based on what we have seen in the EU, I imagine that a ten cruiser battle line was rare for the Rebellion. However, lines of 2-3 MC80's supported by frigates, corvettes, and other escorts are regularly seen in the EU, especially in Lucasarts flight sim games.

Gah, I nearly forgot. Another "wish" of mine is to see more assault frigates. Up through the Thrawn Crisis, assault frigates were the most numerous Rebel capital ships other than Mon Cal cruisers. It would be kinda fun to see a retcon that has the newly Rebel-aligned Fondor Shipyards taksed with coverting dozens of old, captured Dreadnaughts into assault frigates. For the New Republic, converting old Clone Wars-era warships is the quickest way of bulking up their fleet in a relatively short amount of time.

--Adm. Nick

 

"Though no two Mon Calamari Star Cruisers are exactly alike, most fall into one of two categories. The Liberty type (named after the Liberty, which fought at the Battle of Endor) is considered the "standard" design type for all MC80 cruisers. The other variant, referred to as the Home One type (named for the Rebel command ship), is slightly tougher and more heavily armed. Though only a small number of MC80 Star Cruisers fit this profile, most starship designers consider it to be a subclassification of MC80 cruisers and not an entirely new class of ship." - SOTG, p. 115.
The SOTG also mentions that "dozens" of MonCal warships (of all types) joined the Rebel fleet.

Fondor would be a good call. (I would also put forth Rendili itself... )
Some points about the Assault Frigates -
SOTG mentions that the Alliance "acquired a number of Old Republic-era Dreadnaughts" which led to the creation of the frigates - where did they get them from? I would've assumed either appropriating de-commissioned ones or defections, but the latter would imply that they got the crew as well - and the implication seems to be that they got a number of them all at once. It does mention "captured or salvaged Dreadnaughts" later on, so maybe they were just referring to a gradual accumulation of them.
It also reports that there were no reported losses of these ships prior to Endor. That's pretty good...
CSWE had mentioned (from older sources, I'm guessing) that a number of them also participated in the Battle of Endor (and were key to the Alliance victory), which I don't think has been elaborated on.

 

By that token, shouldn't we treat everything with a grain of salt? Weird junk tends to show up anywhere in canon if you look hard enough...

I assume Jason will conjure up a satisfactory solution to the Mystery of the Ghost Mandator, since he has already solved the mysteries of the missing ISDs and Tectors in the CW. As for the Emperor "riding in style", now will be a good time to remind you that in TIE Fighter Battle 7-5: Palpatine was on a "lowly" ISD when he was kidnapped by Zaarin's forces.

Or maybe the CWAS is simply biased in focusing on situations where the CIS seize the initiative. Giving the bad guys the initiative over the heroes (who have to run around to defeat all the plots of the villians) is one of drama's cheap tricks. Likewise, don't expect many CWAS episodes where the Republic has seized the initiative (ie. pursuing and destroy isolated CIS fleets or bombarding the shields of a CIS world).

To be honest though, that excuse only completely works until Palpatine nationalizes the PSFs. After that, excuses will need to be conjured up in order to explain why it never appears in any situation where the CIS has seized the initiative (ie. the typical CWAS episode).

Glad to hear that there's more Panaka goodness coming our way. IIRC, the DNT already acknowledged that the Skywalker twins suspected Padme of being their mother, but didn't really have hard proof before the events of the DNT. Perhaps now, there is an origin of these suspicions.

 

Great to hear, Jason! I've always wanted to read about major figures from both sides talking to each other to gain insight and learn just what each side knew about what and who. Aside from possibly revealing more about the fates of certain characters, conversations (or simple throwaway lines saying X talked to Y) like these have a lot of potential to resolve plotlines that likely won't be resolved on their own and give readers/fans insight into characters and what characters know in-universe. Might be nice to see Leia run into some other folks who could give her more insight, like Daine Jir, perhaps...

 

Maybe precisely because a Venator is "lowly." When visiting a top secret military construction site, using a ship that there are thousands of all over the galaxy is not likely to draw much attention. Take a major ship of the line, and people get more interested. Besides, larger warships tend to have more important duties than VIP transports. Most the time, we see simple ISds serving as VIP transports for the Emperor, Vader, and Moffs.

Executor could be seen as an exception, but normally when Vader is flying around in it, he is using it properly, as a command vessel for small to large fleets. Endor sees Vader come to the Death Star in an ISD (Thunderflare?) and the Emperor arrive later in Executor, but Executor is also stationed at Endor as a flagship, so it was not simply used as a transport for the Emperor.

Similarly, in WWII, Roosevelt used a Cruiser as his transport at times, not a Battleship.

 

It's not like the Emperor didn't fly around in a dirt-common Lambda-class shuttle (special modifications notwithstanding).