PT Was Anakin Abusive

The attempts to split hairs in order to make excuses for other characters go on. I'm sick of the whole thing. And I'm beginning to wonder how illusional human beings really are.\


I'm curious. Why are so many fans are lately getting their panties in a twist over Anakin's crimes? Why are so many making such a big deal about bashing his character as much as possible . . . now? I swear. Someone should write an essay about STAR WARS fandom. It would make a fascinating article about human nature.

 

Well said, Rush. I'd consider doing that piece but I'm not sure I'd be able to post it.

 

Anakin is the main character of the Movie Saga (for now) so he is going to be scrutinized heavily. Do people look way too in-depth at things? Yes but some scrutinizing is to be expected.

 

If I understand the whole "levels of canonicity" arrangement, the movies trump pretty much everything. So, based on those, Anakin was clearly acting in a sudden rage, rather than premeditation, when he killed the Tuskens. Further, Anakin didn't become abusive to Padme until he was drunk on the Dark Side and got paranoid over her objection to his actions.

Now, a lot of his other actions, like killing the younglings and assassinating the Separatist leaders, that's a different story.

 

There isn't a splitting of hairs. Each case is different. Not everything is judged the same way. That's why in certain judicial systems, like the US, there are degrees for each crime and a determination on whether or not a crime has even been committed. Chewie choked Lando because he was betrayed and he was punishing him for that betrayal. This didn't turn Chewie into a homicidal maniac with a lust for blood. Doing so wouldn't have gotten Han free any sooner, because Boba was already boarding Slave I, by the time Chewie let go. They couldn't stop him with two E-11 blasters since they're not capable of bringing down Slave I. To stop him, they would have had to gotten him way sooner like when Luke had the opportunity. Not to mention he's a bounty hunter who had the same training as his old man, who was able to manhandle multiple opponents.

Anakin is different because he trained for ten years to never kill in anger and hatred, and promptly ignored his training in order to lash out. Three years later, he would do it again because A) he wanted to and was given permission and B), he did so because he chose to be selfish. He chose to betray everyone that he cared for and everything that he once swore an oath to defend, because he couldn't accept being alone.

Each case is different.

 

It's one thing to scrutinize Anakin. That's been going on for a long time. However, I've noticed that many fans are increasingly hostile in their comments about Anakin, lately.

The only way Anakin is different is that he embraced evil in his own way. That's it. Yet, I've noticed that many fans are reluctant to scrutinize or admit that other characters - especially the so-called "protagonists" - are equally complex in their own ways. These fans are willing to pay lip service to the idea that characters such as Obi-Wan can also be morally gray or behaved in a morally questionable manner. But when someone out and out states such an idea, the latter is quickly dismissed.

 

edit: Sorry, just realized there was a better thread for this comment.

 

In the ROTS novel, yes he's abusive.

In the film, no, until he chokes Padmé -- from that point on, yes. Honestly, I can't think of a scene where he tries to control her, tell her what to do, or threatens her until Mustafar. There is the one scene where he questions if Obi-Wan has been there (and in the book that scene rapidly became abusive), but in the film, it's clear that Anakin is increasingly thinking that Obi-Wan doesn't trust him. He never indicates any issues towards Padmé there.

I agree with you in regards to Anakin's actions once he's joined with Palpatine. But I think it'd be wrong-headed to assume that Anakin was in the frame of mind to decide anything after his mother died. What happened to him and was done to his mother is enough to make any reasonable person lose control. His actions were definitely wrong and killing is evil, but I honestly can't class Anakin as evil himself, given the circumstances.

He's had visions -- very vivid visions -- of his mother being brutally tortured for a month. And when he finds her, she dies in his arms and the people responsible are sitting right outside (though Anakin has no way of knowing the individuals responsible, I also don't think he was rationale enough to give it any thought).

 

Regarding Chewie: I'd like to see you not want to beat the crap out of the traitor who more or less stabbed your group in the back and sold your best friend to his enemies. What Chewie did was not evil, it was in a fit of blind rage. Evil would be if he then hunted down Lando's family and murdered them for the heinous crime of being related to Lando. Hell, why aren't you calling Leia out on it, as she was practically encouraging Chewie to rip Lando's head off. Mind, once Lando actually choked out that there was a chance to save Han, she ordered Chewie to let him go, and Chewie obeyed immediately. If he were evil, he would've just ignored Leia and murdered Lando after extracting that information from him.

Regarding Obi-Wan: This is being discussed in another thread about whether it was the right thing for Obi-Wan to leave Anakin to burn alive. My stance on this is that we easily forget that Obi-Wan is a human, just like us. At that point, after all that he had witnessed, I don't blame him for just letting this disgusting piece of crap burn. Why show him mercy when he didn't show any to the Jedi he killed, or to his own wife??

Regarding Anakin and the Tuskens- This had been discussed again and again for the past 12 years now. This is one of those things in which we just don't know. It's easy for us to say we wouldn't do this or that when we're not in Anakin's position, holding his dead mother in his arms. While I would like to say I wouldn't snap, I really can't. If we want to discuss evil, we should discuss him marching into the Jedi Temple to kill the people who trusted him with their lives as Padme once said. Discuss him marching into the Jedi Council chambers where the children were hiding.

As for Anakin and Padme? Well, he wasn't abusive until mid-way through ROTS when he started suspecting her as being part of the Seperatists (after she said she wondered if they were fighting for the wrong side) and thinking she's slipping through his fingers.

But wait! I now just noticed something. Chewie killing Lando's family=not ok. Anakin killing an entire Tusken tribe=wrong but understandable. Something seems a bit off here...

 

I'm looking at it from the film, since that is what Lucas created and how he wanted it to be. I don't feel like he was abusive until he turned and lost himself in the darkside.

 

One, both Chewie and Leia were too stupid and emotional to realize that Lando had to think of the people he led and not some semi-mature friend who had dragged him into a bad situation with the Empire. Lando was not fighting with the Alliance. Nor was he required to be Han Solo's faithful lap dog. His worst crime was that he stupidly thought he could avoid or hide away from the Rebellion that was going on.

And two, being angry is one thing. But allowing that anger to lead to a criminal act is another. The moment Chewie wrapped his paws around Lando's throat and started strangling the latter, he allowed evil into his heart. I wish people would stop making excuses for these characters because they are the "so-called" good guys. They come off looking like a bunch of hypocrites.

Also, I'm getting sick and tired of phrases like the Dark Side and the Light Side. I'm sick and tired of anything "dark" being considered in a negative way or being evil. And I'm sick and tired of anything "light" being considered positive or good. It smacks of borderline bigotry.

 

It's called human emotions, DRush76. We're not excusing what Leia and Chewie did, we're just understanding what they did and why they did it. Not the same thing as "I excuse you of your sins." What they did was stupid, in a fit of emotional outrage, and honestly, who could blame them? I would've given Lando a bloody nose if he betrayed my group, allowed the Empire to torture us and take my best friend away. Even if Lando were trying to protect his people, that still doesn't change the fact that I would be upset with him. What they did was very human. Wrong and stupid, sure, but very human. Hindsight is 20/20, and at that exact point, Leia and Chewie didn't really have enough time to sit down and think things from Lando's perspective. All they knew was that their host had taken them *straight* to Darth Vader and were now prisoners of the Empire.

To quote anakinfansince1983: How dare they feel betrayed and angered when Lando gives them to the Empire to be tortured. How dare they react emotionally when they watch Han being taken from them. How dare they exhibit the very human thing to lash out at the very man who is now letting them go for, once again, giving them to the Empire to begin with!! But no, they were just too stupid to not sit down, in the heat of the moment, and consider things from Lando's perspective, because we all know that is possible to do when he's giving you to the Empire to be tortured. Isn't it enough that Leia orders Chewie to stop? Lando may not have had any choice in the matter, but once Leia came to her senses, she made Chewie stop. She didn't say, "Thank you for the information, traitor. Choke him, Chewie!"

Had Lucas put in a scene where Leia apologized to Lando for almost letting Chewie strangle him to death, would you accept it?

 

Chewy throttling Lando in anger is not intended as an exhibition of positive behaviour; I think most people agree that it is not right. But...Chewbacca stops. And he doesn't, after finding out from Lando what they need to know, go back and finish the job off. More than that, he doesn't begin searching out anybody who might have known about what was going on, or anybody who Lando knew, in order to kill them as well. A certain someone else does this in AOTC.

Not only that but, when Anakin marches into the Jedi temple and starts cutting down Jedi - including the younglings - there is no sense in which they are personally responsible for the death he has perceived for Padmé. He is here not acting in anger, he is killing coldly in order to be given something he wants. You seriously can't see the distinction? Really?

As for the light/dark business.... You brought this up in another thread and, just take a look at the earliest religious traditions (Egypt, Babylonia) and you will see that it is all about day/night. The day (Horus -light/sun) brings life, warmth and safety - the night (Set, the great serpent (probably the Milky Way) brings cold, death (the longer nights of winter coincide with dying crops) and danger (people don't see too good in the night). It has absolutely NOTHING to do with bigotry - except against the night.

Light/dark is used because all religion, in essence, can be traced back to Sun worship.

 

Wow, quite a post. Interesting but I can't agree with it particularly your last line.

 

He choked his wife. I believe that qualifies as abuse.

 

I direct you to this...

Really? That's not evil. Evil is killing a bunch of people and not punishing your friend who betrayed you.

Are you trolling? If not, then I think you need to take a break from "Star Wars". You're getting way too worked up over it.

 

I have to add this:



Trolling/jerkiness aside, DRush76, you have to understand that this was the movie that, more or less made the whole 'dark versus light' thing popular within the last 40 years. People got fired up about seeing the downtrodden rebels fighting against an evil, no-holds-barred bad guy that wanted to stomp on their necks while laughing about it. You're not about to see Tarkin having a personal moment where he looks at a hologram image of his wife and children back on Coruscant and muttering, "I'll be back before too much longer, loves..." while wiping away a single tear in Star Wars. No, you're going to see him coldly order a planet blown up. You're also not going to see a Rebel commander treat Chewie like crap because he's a hairy wookie, and not a human. No, this rebel is going to treat Chewie just like anyone else, just with more hair. You're not gonna see a Rebel mutter, "Why do we keep this walking carpet around anyway? My father once said they made better blankets than warriors..."

Long story short, the bad guys are bad and the good guys are good. If you're wondering what started the "cruel dark lord versus noble hero of light and goodness" for the past few decades...well...this was likely it.

 

So are you saying that there is no difference between murder, mass-murder and genocide?
That to murder one person, a thousand or a million is the same as the difference is only about numbers?

I don't think many courts in this world would agree, there numbers do matter.

I do think Obi-Wans' actions on Mustafar crossed a line.

Chewie got really angry and lashed out. Bad yes but understandable given what he had been through. If someone tortures you, tortures your friends and family and after a few weeks sells them into slavery.
If that person then frees you and says "I am sorry, they had my wife as a hostage, I had to do what they said."
I think many would strike out in anger. I think very few would instantly be able to forgive and say "Oh of course I understand and I am not angry at all."

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I agree. I would probably say, "Well, I hope she's got good insurance after what I do to you!" before giving Lando the ass-beating of his life. Would it be very wrong of me? In the grand scheme of things, yes, it would be wrong because it wasn't all Lando's fault, he didn't wake up and decide to betray me. He was forced to do all this because the Empire was threatening the people he cared about. However, at that exact moment, I would have been so clouded with anger that I wouldn't have been thinking clearly. If it's of any comfort, I would immediately stop the moment Leia/some other member of my group ordered me to stop. Why? Because I was angry, not evil.

That would be different, DRush76, then, say after beating the crap out of Lando, I chased after his wife who had done nothing wrong to me. This is what Anakin did. Rather than deal with the Tuskens responsible, he chose to spend however long it took to hunt down every single Tusken in that tribe. Don't say that Chewie was as evil as Anakin, because he wasn't.

Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens? Eh, debatable. On one hand, I can understand why he did this. The Tuskens killed his mother after torturing her for months. It's understandable he'd assume them all guilty of this crime and carry out his sentence of death to them. On the other hand, he's a Jedi, not a pissed off Wookie with a hankering to throttle people. Anakin, as he said himself, should've known better than to commit a massacre. What he should've done was take his mother with him and escape, restoring only for defense if attacked. In my mind, Chewie's response is more understandable than Anakin's. Chewie didn't have the training of the Jedi. That's what makes his action different from Anakin (pre-Jedi Temple Slaughter) and Obi-Wan (Mustafar Duel). These two men had the training of the Jedi to tell them what to do. Obi-Wan should've carried out Yoda's orders and killed Vader, no matter what. Anakin should've not used his Force abilities and lightsaber skills to kill off an entire tribe even if they were asking for it.

Chewie? Just a pissed off Wookie who wants to hurt Lando badly because, guess what? Lando gave him and his friends straight to the Empire, had them tortured, and Han (his #1 Best Friend Forever, mind) taken to his enemies. He doesn't give two Baantha poodoo why Lando was doing this. He saw Lando as the one responsible for everything going down the toilet, so choke-y time. What Chewie did was human, very human. He also let Lando go, and later reluctantly accepted him as part of the group.

 

I think everyone is missing an obvious point with Chewbacca choking Lando. Chewbacca can rip the arms off a Gundark, does anyone really think that Chewie wanted to kill Lando? If Chewie was strong enough to rip the arms off of something, then it wouldn't take 15+ seconds for Chewie to Choke out Lando. If you watch the scene, Chewie is choking Lando for 15+ seconds, and, Lando is able to speak, barely, but still able too. Something with that kind of strength and the intent to kill isn't going to take that long to do it. I always felt that Chewie wanted to get his point across but didn't want to kill Lando.

 

A bit like Homer Simpson choking Bart in that respect.