PT Why didn't Qui Gon not take other options on Tatooine?

You didn't exactly answer the question.

 

There is no facts here, only opinion. But if we were to judge whether a film was good or not based on filmmaking criteria, the answer would be no, they're not good.

But some love them and I'm glad they do. Please enjoy them.

 

Thanks for the permission to like them.

Also, if WHO were to grade them? Me? The numerous others on here that are defending them? You? Plinkett?

Clearly if different people graded them, you would see some grade them as good/great and others would grade them as poor.

 

Enough snark. I didn't give you permission. I sincerely am glad you can enjoy them.

 

No. No Anakin killed Mace Windu because he needed Palpatine for his own personal gain. There was nothing to do with hypocrisy in that scene.

 

Yes, but it is also about convincing Anakin to buy into this point of view. That's why throughout the film, Palpatine keeps contradicting what Obi-wan has taught him. Anakin said that it is wrong to kill Dooku, but Palpatine said it was only natural. Anakin believes the Jedi don't care about power, but Palpatine points out that even the Jedi care about power as they are afraid to lose it. And so on.

 

It had everything to do with hypocrisy. Anakin was teetering on the edge between adhering to his principles and letting Padme die, or giving in to selfishness and aligning himself with evil. We see that when he makes the decision to tell Mace about Sidious, even when he knows that it might result in Sidious's death. The scene with Anakin in the Jedi Council chambers is where he realizes he can't live with making that decision, and decides to go to Palpatine's office himself and try to please both masters by aiding Mace in his defeat of Sidious and keeping Sidious alive to be pumped for dark side knowledge. Mace revealing his utter hypocrisy as a Jedi is what pushes Anakin over the edge and into Sidious's corner.

 

Again. Mace Windu was in combat with the most dangerous man in the galaxy and made the intelligent decision that he was too dangerous to be taken alive. Nothing hypocritical there. It's not implied in the scene at all. The only reason Anakin kills Mace Windu is because he needs Palpatine to learn the power over death.

 

Because Qui Gon was a big poopy head and George Lucas is a terrible writer and every Fanboy with a word processor and/or Stoklossa should have written/directed the prequels.

 

It was hypocritical because he was attempting to execute what he believed was a defeated adversary. He literally repeats dialogue spoken earlier by Palpatine when he's encouraging Anakin to kill Dooku. You're right, it's not implied in the scene; it's explicit in the scene.

Come on, now.

 

Both of them were both wrong and right in that scene. Mace was wrong in attempting to kill an unarmed prisoner but right in that there was no way they'd beat Palpatine the legal way. Anakin was wrong in stopping Mace for selfish reasons but right in that Mace was doing the wrong thing.

 

Nothing in the scene implies Palpatine was defeated, except Palpatine's faking. Again, at this point he has been playing the helpless old man angle for like 20 years. Oh, and he shoots lightning. Windu would be a moron not to kill him then and there. You people make the argument that Mace Windu was being a "hypocrite" to make Anakin's blatant betrayal seem complicated or nuanced. It's not. The Jedi weren't plotting to take over. The Jedi weren't evil. Anakin needed Palpatine alive to further his own ends and at the end of the day he was willing to do anything to get it.

I bet the younglings he murdered were complete hypocrites too eh? Fighting back against those helpless clones, they deserved what they got.

HE WASN'T UNARMED! UNARMED MEANS YOU HAVE NO WEAPON! HIS HANDS WERE WEAPONS!

IF MACE WAS IN THE WRONG THEN VADER WAS IN THE WRONG WHEN HE TOSSES THE "UNARMED" PALPATINE DOWN THE SHAFT IN ROTJ!

 

He's claiming to be "too weak" though.

It would be a bit like arresting a cyborg, with laser gun arms - and that cyborg saying "I'm out of battery energy. Don't kill me please, I surrender" - when you have no way of verifying whether he's lying or not - is there any obligation to accept surrenders?

 

How about the verification that he has been lying about everything for the last 20 years. Oh and he just pretended to be helples slike 5 seconds ago? Anyone who would beleive him at that point is a complete moron.

Dooku was unarmed, because Anakin literally cut his hands off.

 

Force Choke doesn't actually require hands though - I think we see Vader choke Ozzel without raising his hand, and Needa as well.

In the ROTS novelization, Palpatine argues that Dooku's still dangerous without his hands - but Anakin does not accept this as a justification:

Anakin: I- I couldn't stop myself...​

Palpatine: You did well, Anakin. You did not only well, but right. He was too dangerous to leave alive.​

Anakin: He was an unarmed prisoner... ​

Anakin: I shouldn't have done that.​

Palpatine: Nonsense. Disarming him was nothing; he had powers beyond your imagination.​

Anakin: That doesn't matter. It's not the Jedi way.​

Palpatine: Have you never noticed that the Jedi way, is not always the right way?​

Anakin: You don't understand. You're not a Jedi. You can't understand.​

Palpatine: Anakin, listen to me. How many lives have you just saved with this stroke of a lightsaber? Can you count them?​

Anakin: But-​

Palpatine: It wasn't wrong, Anakin. It may be not the Jedi way, but it was right. Perfectly natural- he took your hand, you wanted revenge. And your revenge was justice.​

Anakin: Revenge is never just. It can't be.​

Palpatine: Don't be childish, Anakin. Revenge is the foundation of justice. Justice began with revenge, and revenge is still the only justice some beings can ever hope for. After all, this is hardly your first time, is it? Did Dooku deserve mercy more than did the Sand People who tortured your mother to death?​

Anakin: That was different.​

Anakin: You promised we would never talk about that again.​

Palpatine: And we won't. Just as we need never speak of what has happened here today. I have always kept your secrets, have I not?​

Anakin: Yes- yes, of course, Chancellor, but-​

Palpatine: Anakin, my restraints, please. I'm afraid this ship is breaking up. I don't think we should be aboard when it does.​

 

Hmm interesting conversation...

There is one thing I would like to add. In the AOTC commentary, Lucas makes a comment that eventually everyone (Jedi and Sith) start saying the same exact things. I think this is important because the scene that is being discussed has to be looked at through Anakin's eyes and ears.

As The_Phantom_Calamari has pointed out, Mace and Palpatine have dialogue that is very similar in ROTS.

Palpatine (about Dooku): He was too dangerous to be kept alive.

Mace: He has control of the Senate and the Courts, he's too dangerous to be left alive.

Not to mention Sidious is encouraging the execution of an unarmed prisoner, and Mace is doing the same.


Why is this important? The shared dialogue is part of the excuse Anakin uses to blur the lines between the Jedi and the Sith. Anakin now knows that Palpatine is evil, and a Sith Lord Master. However, Anakin hears Mace saying things that are very similar to what he heard come from that Sith Lord. So that is in part, (among the other examples laid out through ROTS) what Anakin uses to justify his turning on the Jedi. However, I highlighted the word excuse because, as we know the reason that Anakin turns on the Jedi is the fact that he needs Palpatine, "I NEED HIM".

It is only after Anakin helps Sidious in the death of Mace that Anakin starts forming a narrative that the Jedi are evil in order to tell himself what he did was needed. Part of that narrative surely is the shared dialogue between Mace and Sidious.

It is my belief that Anakin wins the award for being hypocritical. At the beginning of ROTS, after Anakin kills Dooku, Anakin shows regret and tells us the audience that killing unarmed prisoners is against the Jedi way. However, he killed Dooku anyway, out of revenge, not because Dooku was dangerous.

Later on, Anakin is hypocritical because he expects Mace to uphold the Jedi Way, however, Anakin has shown that he doesn't hold himself up to that same concept. ie. Killing Dooku, getting married, etc

Is Mace being hypocritical? Yes he is, but not comparable to Anakin's hypocrisy. Surely Mace, being a Council Member, has preached the Jedi Way to many other Jedi, probably Anakin as well. However, I think, as Mace realizes that Sidious is not going to go quietly, that the Republic is still broken, that we see what happens to powerful people in the courts (Gunray never being brought to justice as per Sio Bibble AOTC), that he realizes that an exception must be made. Hypocritical? Yes. Necessary? Yes as well.

This is exactly what Sidious wanted, he wanted the lines between the Jedi and Sith blurred, he wanted Anakin put into a situation where he had to make a choice.

 

I don't think Mace was hypocritical at all, I think the situation is an obvious exception and a very reasonable one.

I think Anakin's point of view is stupid, and it is laughable for him to betray the Jedi/choose Palpatine based on the idea that Mace isn't doing things the Jedi way in that situation, especially considering Anakin's own actions. I also think Anakin has to be incredibly stupid to believe that the lines have become blurred between the Jedi and Palpatine...because it requires a huge amount of information to be ignored, like almost all of it except for a few pretentious quibbles that also ignore reality.

 

Word. Anyone who thinks Mace Windu was being hypocritical is grasping at straws.

 

There is room for Mace to be hypocritical, but, also be right in his decision at the same time.

I too don't believe in killing unarmed people, however, in 1945, if you gave me a rifle and put me in the same room as Adolf Hitler, I would have to be a hypocrite! How many people would say I was wrong...?

 

Palpatine wasn't unarmed though. He can shoot lightning out of his hands. Pretty sure Hitler couldn't do that.

 

Seriously? Do you not pay attention? I never said that he was defeated. I even quoted Lucas who said that he was faking it. But Anakin believed it and that was the point. Palpatine faked being weak and helpless, right before Mace goes to kill him. Anakin sees it as hypocrisy of the highest order due to his own point of view having been twisted by Palpatine. And technically, the Jedi were plotting to take over. They were going to remove Palpatine from office, which while it may have been within their purview, was something that was also problematic which Yoda pointed out and Anakin sees. There's even a passage in the book which points this out.

ANAKIN: "You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial."

MACE: "A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate--"

ANAKIN: "So are you going to kill all of them? Like he said that you would?"

MACE: "He's too dangerous to be kept alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"

ANAKIN: "That was different--."

MACE: "You can explain the difference to me after he's dead."

Anakin, in his own point of view, believed that he was justified in what he did, but that Mace wasn't here. Anakin could accept his flaws as a Jedi, whereas someone like Mace Windu, a more traditional Jedi Knight, should have been above that. This only furthers his resolve in his betrayal.

Right and Anakin believes that Palpatine is weak and unable to defend himself. He even says that he surrenders.

PALPATINE: " I can’t … I give up. Help me. I am weak … I am too weak. Don’t kill me. I give up. I’m dying. I can’t hold on any longer."

PALPATINE: "I’m too weak. Don’t kill me. Please."

But Mace won't hear of it and to Anakin, that is hypocrisy. It becomes not, "Do as I would do, but do as I said."

 

And Mace showed he could handle it. From Mace's POV he had Palpatine down and out. He didn't know Palpatine was playing possum. However, Mace realized that Palpatine was going to fight til the bitter end, and if he couldn't do it through sheer violence he would do it with his control of the "Courts and the Senate".

 

If anything the scene showed Mace couldn't handle it. He strains to defend against the lightning, and can barely speak to Anakin. Mace had a tactical advantage to kill Palpatine, he was clearly not down and out. Evidenced by Palpatine blasting him with lightning seconds later.

"He's too dangerous to be kept alive."

darth-sinister you're making up your own narrative for the film, which is fine but don't protest that it actually happens in the film, because it doesn't. Anakin never calls the Jedi hypocrites. He distrusts them because "there are things about the Force they are not telling him", he thinks they "fear the dark side", and from his POV "the Jedi are evil." Nothing whatsoever about hypocrisy. Again, your using a term you don't seem to fully understand.

Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full on.

What an unarmed helpless man.

 

We the audience know that Palpatine was playing possum. However, that doesn't matter. What matters is what Mace thought.

Mace handled the lightning fine, if he couldn't handle it as you suggest then he would have lost right there and then. Not handling (or could not handle it) means that you are incapable of handling it, in other words the lightning would have overpowered Mace. That is not what happens. Was it easy? No, but he did just fine.

Palpatine stops and shows Mace that he is exhausted and can't fight anymore and starts begging for his life, in fact Palpatine is begging Anakin for his life while the lightning attack is going on.. Palpatine is clearly playing possum, however, from Maces POV, from what Mace sees and knows, Palpatine is no longer a physical threat, but is still a political threat. Your copying and pasting one line, out of context doesn't help your opinion...

Mace doesn't say that Palpatine controls lightning, so he's too dangerous to be left alive. Mace points out that he has control over the government and that's why he is too dangerous.

Can I ask you, are you not capable of understanding the difference between what we as the audience knows and what the characters know? I know that comes across as being rude, but I have to ask in direct manner in order to understand why you can't grasp the concept.

Mace thinks he has defeated Palpatine physically, Mace doesn't know that Palpatine is playing possum.