Saga Analysis of Yoda's arc

When was that not the case? Qui-Gon clarified Obi-Wan regarding Yoda's advice, so there was no change at all. Yoda was mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment.

Solely?! Says who? And the Jedi were doing what they can to defend the Republic. That they don't know that they were being played is not a problem with their ways.

That was not because he wasn't mindful of the present. It's because the Sith were actively working in hiding. They were using the dark side to cloud everyone.

 

I agree with The_Phantom_Calamari.

When Anakin is first tested, Yoda is focused on Anakin's clouded future, not looking at the good person he is at present. This attitude shows through in much of the Jedi Council's dealing with Anakin in the PT, until it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And the way the films are written imply Yoda had underappreciated Qui-Gon's wisdom.


TPM

ANAKIN, OBI-WAN, and QUI-GON stand before the TWELVE MEMBERS OF THE JEDI
COUNCIL.

YODA : ...Correct you were, Qui-Gon.
MACE WINDU : His cells contain a high concentration of midi-chlorians.
KI-ADI : The Force is strong with him.
QUI-GON : He's to be trained, then.

The COUNCIL MEMBERS look to one another.

MACE WINDU : No. He will not be trained.

ANAKIN is crestfallen; tears begin to form in his eyes.

QUI-GON : No??!!

OBI-WAN smiles.

MACE WINDU : He is too old. There is already too much anger in him.
QUI-GON : He is the chosen one...you must see it.
YODA : Clouded, this boy's future is. Masked by his youth.
QUI-GON : I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan learner.

OBI-WAN reacts with surprise. ANAKIN watches with interest.

YODA : An apprentice, you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible, to take on a second.
MACE WINDU : We forbid it.
QUI-GON : Obi-Wan is ready...
OBI-WAN : I am ready to face the trials.
YODA : Ready so early, are you? What know you of ready?

ANAKIN watches as QUI-GON and OBI-WAN exchange angry looks.

QUI-GON : Headstrong....and he has much to learn about the living Force,
but he is capable. There is little more he will learn from me.
YODA : Our own council we will keep on who is ready. More to learn, he has...
MACE WINDU : Now is not the time for this...the Senate is voting for a new
Supreme Chancellor. Queen Amidala is returning home, which will put pressure
on the Federation, and could widen the confrontation.


Mace and the Council ignore Qui-Gon's input, and arguably change the subject to less spritual matters.


............................................................


INT. TURRET ROOM - NABOO PALACE - LATE DAY
The sun streams into the multi-windowed room at a low angle. It is not
quite sunset. YODA paces before OBI-WAN, who is kneeling in the center of
the room.

YODA : Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Council does. But agree
on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not.
OBI-WAN : Qui-Gon believed in him. I believe in Qui-Gon.
YODA : The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in
his training.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without
the approval of the Council if I must.
YODA : Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree, the
council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be.


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ROTS


222 INT. POLIS MASSA-OBSERVATION DOME-NIGHT On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.

YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is ...

QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training,
you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will
become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a
state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.

BAIL ORGANA: Excuse me, Master Yoda. Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.



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If you look at Yoda's dialogue in AOTC and ESB there is a stark contrast implying he has grown wiser through his experience in the PT.


AOTC

Much of Yoda's dialogue in this film reflects the Jedi's clouded wisdom.


PALPATINE: Master Yoda. Do you think it will really come to war?
YODA: Hmm, the dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.

.....................................................

ANAKIN: As the leader of the opposition, it will be very difficult to get Senator Amidala to leave the capital.
YODA: Until caught this killer is our judgment she must respect.

Yoda clearly misses that sending Padme off-world contributes to the military creation act passing and war beginning.
.....................................................

YODA: Blind we are if creation of this clone army we could not see.
MACE:[ Sighs ] I think it is time we informed the senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
YODA: Only the dark lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is multiply our adversaries will.

More informed allies on the Senate would have helped the Jedi greatly. And there is also a reference to the Jedi's blindness to the Senate already being led by the Sith.
..........................................................................................................


Really listen to the following lines;

Yoda: Around the survivors a perimeter create!
...
CLONE: Sir, I have five special commando units awaiting your orders, sir.
YODA: To the forward command center take me.
...
CLONE: Master Yoda, all forward positions are advancing.
YODA: Very good. Very good.
...
YODA: Hmm.
CLONE: The droid army is in full retreat.
YODA: Well done, Commander. Bring me a ship.


These lines have much in common with the perspective of quotes where Palpatine gives orders (to the clones and Anakin/Vader) in the next film (ROTS), and are very contrasting to...

CREATURE Help you I can. Yes, mmmm.
LUKE I don't think so. I'm looking for a great warrior.
CREATURE Ahhh! A great warrior. (laughs and shakes his head)
Wars not make one great.




The following quote is very important:
YODA:
Ready, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained!
A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. (to the invisible Ben, indicating Luke)
This one a long time have I watched.
All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph.
Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things.

Notice that while the "own Council (I) will keep" comment is respoken, he doesn't refuse to train Luke based on age, even though Luke is far older than Anakin was when Anakin began training. If anything Luke has had time to form stronger attachments than his father had.
And if the the PT dialogue is taken at face value, quotes like this in ESB clearly indicates Yoda shifts his perception and method of teaching, like others have argued; less fearful of the future.

It is there in the PT scripts and Lucas interviews and other SW material. Yoda is objectively shown as changing, to deny this baffles me.




Finally; Yoda advises in a Council meeting in ROTS - "Hiding in the Outer-Rim Grievous is. The outlying systems you must sweep."
Not seeing the main threat is internal, within the Republic, within Anakin (and potentially within any Jedi), and that by sending Obi-Wan away (outward) they are falling into Palpatine's trap.

 

Because his present is not in question. Actually, his present dwells on fear. Fear of losing his mother (you know, the very thing that led to his downfall), which Anakin confirms when questioned. So no, Yoda is not just "focused on Anakin's future", he's seeing every angle. And he's wary because of it.

No, they are prioritizing the mission at hand which is more important.

Also, Qui-Gon's defiance has nothing to do with his new ability.

On the contrary, they complement each other.

Wrong. It's not the act of sending her away that contributes to that. Besides, what you're saying is basically "Yoda clearly misses the events as played in Attack of the Clones". It's ridiculous to blame a character based on something that you only know it happens because you've watched the movie.

How?

Or Leia giving orders to the Alliance soldiers. Or Squadron leaders giving orders to pilots. There's nothing wrong or bad with Yoda's strategic commands to the clones. They helped save lives.

No, they aren't. That's taking a statement out of context. Wars don't make one great. That doesn't mean that you should do nothing in a war.

I find it baffling that you can see a change or contradiction when there isn't any.

 

But with proper training, Anakin's fear can perhaps be managed. As it stands, all Yoda and Mace end up doing by initially refusing him (out of their own fear) and focusing on Anakin's potential for future danger is to stoke resentment within Anakin, resentment which I don't think is completely unjustified.

At the same time, yes, I do see Yoda and the Council's point. They're not being totally unreasonable. Everyone has an understandable point of view, I think. That's part of what makes the story so tragic.

 

I agree with this, the Jedi are tragic characters to me, flawed or not. And I'm not just saying that, their untimely demise after generations of selflessly serving the Republic makes me think maybe they were too good for the Republic. They were turned on in an instant.

 

Was Anakin's training improper?

Out of fear? No, out of wisdom. They know the consequences of attachment and fear. That's why their order is structured the way it is.

What resentment? If there was any resentment on Anakin, it had nothing to do with his fall. He fell out of fear and his inability to follow the Jedi way. He had the chance to do the right thing, but he chose not to.

 

The resentment was a more prominent part of Anakin's fall in the original cut of ROTS, but it's still there in AOTC and ROTS.
Even when he is initially rejected in TPM he glares at Mace, Anakin painfully left his mother to join them and that was their reaction.
When a conflicted Anakin sees (albeit out of context) Mace attempt to kill Palpatine he loses faith because the Jedi had preached to him like he was a lesser Jedi, yet this act in his eyes means they are no better than he is. It comes to the surface here, and helps him rationalise abandoning the Jedi way.
EDIT - It has to play a part in Anakin's psyche when he turns, it wouldn't be put in the films for no reason.

This is subjective, but for me, I think it was. Qui-Gon and Palpatine are just more wired to Anakin's needs than what we see of Anakin's PT training. Luke arguably was better trained.

 

Just noticed your edit.

The identity of the chosen one who will bring balance to the force is less important than the Trade Federation invading Naboo? Isn't that exactly what Palpatine would hope the Jedi expend their efforts and wisdom on?

I know your stance on this, but Imo Qui-Gon likely teaches Yoda more than just identity retention after ROTS.

Have to agree to disagree, to me the themes are strengthened by the contrast.

PADME: I haven't worked for a year to defeat the Military Creation Act to not be here when its fate is decided.

...

The debate is over. Now we need that clone army.
BAIL: Unfortunately, the debate is not over. The senate will never approve the use of clones before the separatists attack.
MAS AMEDDA: This is a crisis. The senate must vote the chancellor emergency powers.
He can then approve the creation of an army.
PALPATINE: But what senator would have the courage to propose such a radical amendment?
MAS AMEDDA: If only... Senator Amidala were here.

Jar Jar, who is standing in for Padme then proposes Palpatine's emergency powers to the Senate, so Palpatine can authorise the clone army. A huge step in Palpatine's rise to power, and one Padme would have never allowed to happen had she been there.

In the delegation of 2000 scenes cut from ROTS it is mentioned that even the good Senators don't know how the Jedi fit in to what is happening, so shouldn't been informed of their movement.
Both groups were holding the same values, and would have had more strength if they teamed up. The Jedi would have more public credibility when arresting or even killing Palpatine, and with the Jedi and members of the Senate together it would have been harder for Palpatine to declare the Empire unopposed.

But tellingly, your examples were not orders given to Clones. It goes against a Jedi's nature to lead a Clone Army into a war. To me a clone army is a weapon that shouts "Sith".
But your point about the strategic value of Yoda's dialogue stands.

It can be taken both ways, I admit I don't have solid proof.
It is just what the flow of the narrative implies to me, watching the films 1-6. Obi-Wan and Yoda learn, and Luke forges his own unique path to become wise enough to do what the PT Jedi arguably didn't.

I'm not going to change your mind. I don't for the life of me see why you can't agree that fighting the Clone War was not the right way to win the spiritual war though. You must get a very different message from Obi-Wan and Yoda's wisdom in the OT.
"You can't win. But there are alternatives to fighting."
The Clone Wars essentially could not be truly won in battle.

 

But it didn't play any part in it. In fact, the only Jedi-related reason that might have had an influence was their request to spy on Palpatine. But even in the grand scheme of things, it became almost irrelevant.

That's the whole problem. Jedi training isn't about catering one's needs. It's the opposite. Being a Jedi is about letting go of one's needs.

Thats the same flawed line of reasoning that people use when they argue that if Qui-Gon had trained Anakin, he would let him visit his mother. No, he wouldn't. Qui-Gon wouldn't feed Anakin's attachment. He warned him that Jedi training wouldn't be easy and that being a Jedi was a hard life.

In that moment, yes. The prophecy and the Chosen One is a long term problem/solution, it doesn't have the urgency of Naboo's emergency.

Palpatine is oblivious to Anakin, the prophecy and Qui-Gon's opinion on it all. And yes, he probably expected the Jedi to continue to do their job.

What else does he teach him? What Yoda taught him? He certainly didn't taught him that wars don't make one great, because Yoda was always unhappy about war.

"Victory? Victory you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has."

"Wars don't make one great."

That's consistency.

No, she wouldn't. But someone else would in light of recent events. Jar Jar got to be the senator that proposed the powers. But the majority of the senate approved, so it was bound to happen.

That has nothing to do with the Jedi's ability of using the Force being diminished. No senator can fix that problem and some of them can take advantage of that and exploit it.

Ideally, yes.

The difference being?

There's nothing natural about a clone army. But that's irrelevant. A separatist invasion is happening. The Republic accepted the use of the clone army. The Jedi can either do their part in help protecting the Republic and make a difference or not.

It's a Sith idea.

You only say that because you've seen the movies and who's the puppeteer behind it all. The characters didn't. You're using fallacies (historian's fallacy, hindsight bias).

And what spiritual war? Yes, war is bad, killing is wrong. Would you tell that to Leia and the Rebel Alliance, for example? No. The Jedi are doing the exact same thing. To fight against a faction that threatens the democracy and freedom that is the Republic.

I don't. I just don't take sentences out of context.

I've seen the movies, so I know that. The characters don't. Why do you continue to use the same flawed argumentation?

 

I mean...that's our entire point. The characters don't know that. They don't know something that they should know, and so they fail, learn from their mistakes, and train a new generation of heroes to do what they could not.

Notably, Yoda and Obi-Wan never explicitly tell Luke what he has to do. They tell him that there are alternatives to fighting, but they also tell him that killing Vader may be the only path to victory. By doing so, they preserve Luke's element of choice. He has to face the same hard dilemma the Jedi did during the Clone War, and just like them, he doesn't know (initially) what the correct choice ultimately is. Yet unlike the Jedi, he ends up making the right one, and in so doing redeems the previous generation, in a way he could never have done had Yoda and Obi-Wan simply told him what to do.

But I agree with HevyDevy. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this, because you just have a fundamentally different view of the films than we and Lucas himself have. That's okay.

 

They shoudn't know something that they can't.

which were?

They trained Luke in the way of the Jedi, just like they were (and have) trained once.

Yes, they do. Confront Vader.

Obi-Wan told that to Han when they were about to enter the Death Star. That doesn't mean there are always alternatives to fighting. In that case, there was.

When?

Luke and every other character always had the element of choice.

No, he doesn't. They're completely different issues.

And what was the "correct choice" for the Jedi?

There's no source that proves Lucas himself shares your views.

 

"They sort of persuade people to do the right thing, but their job isn’t really to go around fighting people—yet they’re now used as generals and they’re fighting in a war and they’re doing something they really weren’t meant to. They’re being corrupted by this war, by being forced to be generals instead of peacemakers." -- George Lucas

You think the Jedi made the correct choice to be corrupted by a war they weren't meant to fight and which isn't part of their job?

To argue that your views on this aren't out of line with Lucas's would be to stretch words to the point of incredulity. You're allowed to have a different view of the films than the creator, you know. If I were you, I wouldn't make this your hill to die on.

edit: Also, friendly tip: breaking up the posts you're responding to almost sentence by sentence like that makes it really hard to respond to you in turn, and tends to impede easy discussion.

 

1. That's a strawman. Nobody is arguing what the Jedi are and aren't. That's stated in the movies more than once. Jedi shouldn't fight in wars, but then again, there shouldn't be wars to begin with. The reality is that there is a war. Should the Jedi do what they can to help end it as soon as possible and prevent more deaths and suffering? Or should they do nothing and pretend everything is fine?

2. Why?

3. Sure, but I'm not that type of person. I do have my opinion on things he hasn't spoken about. But when he does share his views on something that he created, I consider it a fact, not a mere opinion.

4. I understand, but I like to address things point by point. See if this approach works for you.

 

They should refuse to fight a senseless battle and let come what may, even if doing so results in their own destruction. That's true selflessness, true sacrifice, true heroism.

It's exactly what Luke does at the end of ROTJ. He refuses to fight. He fully expects the Emperor to kill him--but he still refuses to fight, because the battle is not a principled one, it is a battle pitting a son against a father, kin against kin, and thus it is unwinnable. The same is true of the Clone War, and the Jedi should have realized this just as Luke did. The Separatists are not their enemies but their brothers, their kin, their fellow beings. It doesn't matter who started the war or whose fault it was or how much of a jerk Nute Gunray is--it is not a righteous crusade, it's an unwinnable battle.

It's like Padme says: the problem is a lack of communication. No one is talking to each other. They have more in common than they think; both sides would rather have peace and security than more unrest and war, but the problem is everyone is fighting each other instead of talking. No one wants to fight. The Sith want them to fight. But the Jedi aren't fighting the Sith. They're taking orders from one, and they're too blinded by arrogance to see it.

 

You only know it's senseless because you've watched the movies. The Jedi didn't.

There's nothing heroic and selfless about letting the Republic and its people they swore to serve be invaded and oppressed by separatist forces.

He refuses to destroy Vader. That has nothing to do with the Republic, the Separatists and the Sith. Luke isn't there to win and leave. He knows he's going to die. He wouldn't throw away his lightsaber if there was a chance to defeat Sidious and leave.

 

Exquisite discussion. If fact, I find myself to be agreeing with both sides in this manner. Many good points from the 3 of you.

 

Alexrd, i agree with everything you said. It's really great to see fans of Qui Gon, instead of jumping on the bandwagon and calling him "the worst jedi ever". Such an underrated character.

 

If that's a thing, it's news to me.

 

It's mostly social media reactions, and that doesn't mean anything as proved in one recent event i'm not going to name.

 

How was he defending Qui-Gon?

 

"I've been watching his career with great interest while i was lurking."
Also his avatar and signature - it's nice to see Qui Gon being appreciated.

 

So I have a banta poodoo theory about Yoda, one that i think would fit his character - he wasn't always strong in the Force.

I've been thinking about how the Force works and about how you become a Jedi. Typically, the Jedi and Sith seek out those with high midichlorian counts because that's an indicator that the person may be strong in the Force, thus it's easier to train that person and for them to pick up the Jedi skills and powers, whereas for an average person, it could take decades to learn the basics of the Force. In essence, anyone can become a Jedi but if you start out with a strong connection, it's much easier.

With that in mind, let's look at Yoda and one particular thing he says to Luke - "For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi..."

This line shows how old Yoda is. He's studied the Force for centuries, trained countless Jedi and with that age and experience has come wisdom. But in ROTJ, we find out that Yoda is 900 years old. This is an interesting fact because it means that for the first 100 years of his life, he wasn't training Jedi. Obi-Wan gets an apprentice as soon as he becomes a Jedi Knight. Anakin Skywalker gets an apprentice not long after he becomes a Knight. One of the key facets of Jedi (and Sith) life is passing on knowledge. So what was Yoda doing for the first hundred years? Was he found late by the Jedi? Did he choose not to take on an apprentice straight away? Would that have even been allowed? It's my contention that the reason Yoda waited so long to take on an apprentice is because it took him decades to become a Jedi Knight.

There was certainly a time before the midichlorian test became standard across the Republic when Jedi would need to go out into the galaxy and actually search for potential recruits. In fact, given the number of temples scattered across the galaxy, it's conceivable, perhaps even probable that at one time, people would show up at temples, hoping to be trained. Yoda was born during peace time, at least a hundred years after what was thought to be the destruction of the Sith. With the Jedi being great heroes of the galaxy, people would have flocked to their temples, hoping to be chosen to take on the mantle of the Jedi. While the Jedi may have favoured those strong in the Force, it's worth considering that in the time after the fall of the Sith, the Jedi would have wanted to spread their philosophy, in part to suffocate the Sith philosophy. While the Sith themselves were deemed to have been eliminated, they would still have had followers, those who believed in their views of the Force and the galaxy and instead of just accepting the strong for training, the Jedi might have welcomed anyone who wished to learn the ways of the Jedi as a means to fully transition the galaxy away from Sith doctrine.

Now, if you were strong in the Force, you could pick it up relatively quickly but if you weren't, it might take decades to learn the ways of the Force. Most people wouldn't have had the patience to wait that long to get a handle on even the most basic of techniques. My theory is that Yoda is someone who was weak in the Force but had the patience to spend decades learning the ways of the Jedi. Whether Yoda actually started training as a child or not is another matter but let's assume for a moment that he was Luke's age. Yoda would have spent eighty years studying the Force, learning to deepen and expand his connection to the Force. By the time of the Clone Wars, Yoda has one one the highest midichlorian counts ever measured but when he was a young man, his count may have been low. As he trained and deepened his connection to the Force, the midichlorians would begin to thrive and multiply and the reason his count is so high by the time of TPM is that he spent centuries deepening his connection to the Force. In this scenario, he spends 80 years training to be a Jedi, finally becoming a Jedi Knight at around 100 years old. At that point, he could start taking on apprentices and as years turn into decades and decades turn into centuries, Yoda becomes one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

What would this mean for his arc? I think it would have a profound effect on Yoda's journey. He starts off as an average, ordinary being with very little aptitude for the Force. Through patience and dedication, he becomes a Jedi Knight, trains others and thanks to being a long-lived species, is able to continue to develop is connection to the Force and study the great mystery for 800 years after becoming a knight, culminating in him learning to retain his identity after death, a true triumph of the Jedi.

I should say that I like Yoda being mysterious and wouldn't want any of this to be explored in the canon, but I like the idea of Yoda starting out being ordinary, nothing special and developing into the one of the most powerful and wisest Jedi the galaxy has ever seen.

 

Or, being a member of a very long-lived species, it took him that long to reach the equivalent of a human's mid-twenties and get knighted.

 

Who said that's typical? Qui-Gon only made the test because he sensed the Force was unusually strong in Anakin (as in, unusually strong even for a potential Jedi). The midi-chlorian test simply helped him believe that Anakin could have been the one conceived by midi-chlorians, as foretold in a Jedi prophecy. Nobody said that's standard for children to be taken for Jedi training.

 

On the other hand, having a test that any doctor could run would help explain how an Order of 10k people tops - who also have other jobs to do - can even begin to keep up with sifting through billions of babies within the Republic every year to track down the ones best suited for training.