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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT "Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darklordoftech, Aug 20, 2016.

  1. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    oh ok , well if that's the requirement then let's see you apply it to your own claim "a galaxy's worth of bounty hunters" , can you point out all these bounty hunters in the prequel era ?

    they use mercs for covert stuff , assassinations etc.
    so the republic needs mercs but the seps don't ? that makes no sense .


    oh ok , well again - using your requirements for proof , "make a claim back it up "- show me these million bounty hunters .

    lastly - this is your fundamental error ^ , it's not a lottery , Jango was not hired by lottery , he was hired because they needed someone of his skills , whoever they chose would've done other jobs , this idea that 2 seperate jobs equates some astronomical odds is absurd , he's done lots of jobs , probably for various people , and the seps have used various mercs or bounty hunters for various jobs .

    it's quite common for a bounty hunter to do one job for one employer and then another job for a different employer , they're not loyal to one side either .

    .

    .
     
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    First, to recap, this little discussion is based on what the Jedi know and what they would think.
    The Jedi know that Jango is the template for the clone army and they know he works for Dooku.
    The question is if the Jedi would have reason to think this is fishy or not.
    I say yes but you disagree.


    Not quite, bounty hunters exist in the PT galaxy, Jango is identified as one and bounty hunters are also spoken of in the plural form, bounty hunterS.
    So more than one exist.
    We also know that we are dealing with a whole galaxy here and millions of planets.
    So to argue that the only bounty hunters that exist are the one we see leads to the rather absurd conclusion that only ONE bounty hunter exists in the whole galaxy.
    Yes ONE, Jango is the only one that is called a bounty hunter in the film, Zam isn't and if you want to be pedantic, she isn't one.
    It would be like saying that the whole Empire in the OT have only 30 ISD as those are the only ones we see.
    So what I am doing is taking the established existence of bounty hunters and adding the fact that we are dealing with a whole galaxy here and arguing that the total number of bounty hunters would be significant. Certainly a lot more than one.

    However what you are doing is making up actions, events and motivations wholesale.
    You say that the seps are hiring loads of bounty hunters and they are doing all sorts of things.
    However there is no evidence at all for this IN the films.
    And since this is about what the Jedi knows, it is likewise never established that they think this.

    What covert stuff, what assassinationS? The attempts on Padme was a person grudge from Nute, the rest you have just made up.

    Also, and this ties with what I wrote at the start, we are talking about what the Jedi KNOW.
    If the Jedi know that the seps have hired loads of mercs and are doing all sort of covert stuff and even assassinations.
    Then that flies totally in the face of what is said in the beginning of the film.
    When Padme accuses Dooku, the Jedi defend him by saying "He couldn't assassinate anyone."
    But since Dooku is the leader of the seps and if the seps have been killing people left and right as you claim, then this defense becomes ludicrous.

    And it makes Padme look very foolish, if the seps are this aggressive and do this many shady things and kill people all over the place. Then her opposition to the army bill becomes odd and her arguing that the seps can be reasoned with equally odd.

    Really?
    Look at the film again, some of the factions that make up the seps ALREADY HAVE ARMIES, like the TF, Techno Union etc. The republic meanwhile have NO soldiers and NO protection other than the Jedi. This is said by both Mace and Dooku.
    In fact, many people IN the republic are worried about the seps and them possibly getting aggressive and this is why we have the army bill in the senate.
    So the republic is debating about creating an army to defend themselves if the seps turns to violence.
    This means that the republic are in need of soldiers and thus mercenaries would be of interest to them.

    The seps however have no need for extra soldiers as they already have plenty.
    Plus, about the "covert stuff", the seps are secretly building a huge army by both combining the various armies of the TF and co plus the new ones made on Geonosis.
    Obviously they don't want this to become known before they are ready and it is thus in their interest to keep the republic at ease until the time when they strike.
    So it would work totally counter to that goal for the seps to kill people left and right and blow up buildings and cause all manner of destruction. This will put the republic on alert and would make them want to arm themselves. Making the war harder.
    Hence why the seps continue to negotiate with the republic until their army is ready.


    See above, bounty hunters exist, the number of planets in the SW galaxy is very big and so the position that only 2-3 bounty hunters exist in the whole galaxy is far more unreasonable than saying that the number is quite big, say a few thousand.

    You on the other hand just make up stuff and never provide any evidence for it.


    [/QUOTE]

    First you are taking stuff you made up, that the seps have used loads of bounty hunters before, as totally for granted despite not providing one shred of evidence.
    Second, if you want to be pedantic, Jango is called a BOUNTY HUNTER, what is the definition of a bounty hunter?

    We can also add someone who tracks down and captures people that someone rich wants found.

    So given this, then BOTH jobs that Jango do are outside of normal bounty hunting.
    Being the template for a clone army. Not normal bounty hunting. A soldier would be more logical here.
    Being involved in assassinating a high ranking senator, again not normal bounty hunting.

    So this makes the stunning co-incidence that he just happened to be involved in these two unrelated jobs even more odd.

    Zam shows that assassins exist so if someone wanted Padme dead, hiring an actual assassin would be more logical than hiring a bounty hunter.
    Plus the argument that is made to defend the Jedi not being worried about Jango's dual involvement is "it was pure chance, odd co-incidence and so on."
    This is why I bring up the odds that out of a whole galaxy, the same guy just getting hired for these two jobs by pure random chance is rather unlikely.

    Past affiliation is a much more likely explanation. That Dooku had hired Jango before and knew he was reliable and could do this job. But when could Dooku have hired Jango?
    The Jedi still don't know who hired Jango or who really placed the order for the clone army as they suspect that Sifo-Dyas was already dead.
    And given that they know that a Jedi must be involved in this given the tampering of their archives, Dooku is a possible suspect.

    But the Jedi just ignore all these questions.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Correction: he's working for Dooku in that moment. As a bounty hunter, he has dozens of clients and jobs, Dooku being the latest as far as the Jedi know. Unless he's not very good, which makes no sense considering he was picked to be a template for an army.
     
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  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    And yet we are still back at the Jedi looking at the remarkable coincidence that Dooku just happened to pick the one guy that is also involved in making a clone army that will fight his forces.

    Even if we assume that in the whole GALAXY, only ten people have the skills/reputation to be suitable for the job of killing Padme. But all of them could do the job.
    Then Dooku picking Jango means that he just happened to pick the one guy that is involved with a clone army. A 10% chance. That is quite a coincidence.

    And since we are dealing with a whole galaxy here, the number of people capable of assassinating Padme would be higher than ten, thus the odds of Dooku picking Jango out of pure chance, goes down.

    So if it isn't chance, what other option is there?
    Past history, that Dooku has employed Jango before and thus he knows he is capable.
    And when could that have been?
    Well maybe this unknown Tyrannus that hired Jango to be the template?
    After all the Jedi knows that a Jedi was involved in this as their archives has been tampered with and this is something ONLY a Jedi can do. Dooku fits the bill here.

    And speaking about Jango.
    First, the Jedi know him as a Bounty Hunter. As I said above, a bounty hunter is one who hunts down people and deliver them for the reward.
    While bounty hunting might be regarded as a disreputable job, it isn't strictly speaking illegal.
    Being an assassin, that is very likely illegal.
    So doing an assassination, that is not normal bounty hunting.
    And being the template for a clone army, that is also not normal bounty hunting.
    What makes a good soldier and what makes for a good bounty hunter are not quite the same.

    So him being a bounty hunter would make him not the most logical candidate in either of these jobs.
    And again, I am speaking how the Jedi know him and that is as a bounty hunter.

    Second, Jango has been involved in the clone project for about ten years.
    And the Kamino people said they keep him on Kamino. He can leave for short periods of time but over the past ten years, he would most likely have been doing LESS jobs than before.
    Plus he is a father and thus he would most likely spend some time with his son.
    Lastly, Jango's pay is considerable, as the Kamino say. So he isn't really desperate for cash.
    In all, Jango would not be very active on the galactic scene given all this, so this makes the odds that his hiring was pure chance even lower.

    To sum up, that Jango works for Dooku is too much of a coincidence for the Jedi to just ignore it.
    But ignore it they did and thus to me, they look like retards.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Remarkable? There's nothing remarkable at all. He's a bounty hunter. He was hired for one job (10 years ago) and for another recent job that the Jedi are investigating. During the investigation, they were made aware of one of his past jobs. Now sure, an investigation is in order, but to expect the Jedi to just assume there's an inherent link is just stretching and nothing more than confirmation bias. Considering the information they have, it's as much of a coincidence as Obi-Wan having a friend who could indentify a Kamino dart and thus lead him to the discovery of a secret army for the Republic. Might as well say that Dexter is in on it too and the Jedi should investigate him.
     
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  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    First, correction, the clone army is not a job he DID almost ten years ago. It is a job he has been DOING for almost ten years. Jango has been living on Kamino this whole time and donating samples from time to time. We see younger clones that were started five years ago. So Kamino is not a past job, it is a current job.

    Second, all I have been arguing is that Jango working for Dooku is something the Jedi should consider and look in to.
    But time and again I have been told that the Jango-Dooku connection is not at all important, that is doesn't mean anything and the Jedi have no reason what so ever in even thinking about it.
    I don't think so. It is too much of a coincidence to be ignored out of hand. They should look into it and ask questions as to what this could mean.
    I don't mean that they should know right away that Dooku is Tyrannus, just that they have reasons to be suspicious about the clone army and Jango working for Dooku is one such reason.

    So when they are looking into Jango working for Dooku, the question of whether or not this could mean a past connection is a question worth asking.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Right, "hired for" 10 years ago then.

    The Jango-Dooku connection is important to us, the viewers. And it does mean something (again, to us). But considering the information the Jedi have, they have no reason to be suspicious of Jango working for Dooku, Gunray or anybody else considering his job. Should they investigate Jango? Sure, I'm not arguing otherwise (and they partially did before the war had begun). But there's no reason to jump to the conclusion that Dookuwas somehow related to the clone army creation. There's no link. Jango knew the link but the Jedi didn't.

    I don't think it's "too much of a coincidence". They don't have enough information to suspect Dooku.

    My argument is that there's no inherent relation for them to be suspicious. They should be (and are) suspicious of Jango and the identity of the person who hired him. But it's still a big leap to go right for Dooku. Even more so after Obi-Wan overheard Dooku's "secret plan" to take over the Republic.
     
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Imagine that back in the 60's, the US military hired a guy to work on some special project for them and he has worked with it for the next ten years. But after those ten years, the US army find out that he is also working for the KGB. Do you think that the US army would react to this info and want to investigate it or should they ignore it?

    So Jango has worked for the Kamino people for ten years, building an army for the republic.
    And just by some amazing stroke of luck, Dooku, the enemy that the clone army will fight, just happens to hire the same Jango to do a job for him.
    A job that he doesn't even do himself and instead he hires an assassin to do for him.

    As I've said many times now, the Jedi have many reason to be suspicious of the Jango-Dooku connection. First, again we are dealing with a whole galaxy here, that Dooku wound up hiring the one person that is involved in making an army that will fight his, are too unlikely to accept without question.
    Second, the Jedi KNOW that a Jedi is involved in this, as only a Jedi can tamper with their files.
    The Jedi that is said to have ordered the army is dead and if Obi-Wan is correct, he was killed BEFORE the order was placed, so he didn't do it. So another Jedi is involved.
    Since Dooku is connected with Jango and he is a former Jedi and could thus have deleted the file, he is a suspect. And a likely one at that.
    Third, the person that hired Jango is unknown and Jango has never even heard of Sifo-Dyas, which adds even more suspicion to the growing pile.

    So yes, Jango working for Dooku means something to the Jedi as well and it is something they should have asked questions about.

    One just one planet, the odds that the same guy winds up hired for two unrelated jobs by mere chance are small enough to warrant a second look. In a whole galaxy, only an idiot would ignore it.

    [/QUOTE]

    And I say that they have so many suspicious things about the clone army that only a complete moron would look at it and go "No, nothing odd here, this army is totally legit."

    Dooku is a former Jedi and could thus have deleted the file and posed as "Sifo-Dyas" and ordered the clone army and hired Jango and this is why he used him again when it came time to kill Padme.
    Dooku fits everything here but there is a obvious question about motive.
    That needs to be considered sure and I am not saying the Jedi should leap to the conclusion that it was Dooku right away.
    But they know enough to ask the question "Is Dooku this Tyrannus?"
    This is a lead worth pursuing. So the Jedi could try and find out if they can uncover something that either supports or disproves it.
    What is stupid is to never even consider the possibility.

    Bye for now.
    Mr "Insert-Name-Here"
     
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  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    It depends on the occupation of said man and if it's strange for him to be hired for the KGB or not. Since Jango is a gun for hire (and supposedly very capable on his field of work), there's nothing to conclude. And I never said the Jedi should ignore anything. I'm saying they shouldn't assume anything.

    There's no surprise or amazing stroke of luck in a gun for hire being hired by more than one faction. What the Jedi should be (and are) suspicious about is the identity of the person who hired Jango for that job and what his purpose is.

    There are many justifications for such an act.

    Why? Why shouldn't Dooku hire Jango? It's a big galaxy, yes, but we are dealing with big players. Dooku is a public figure. The leader of a separatist movement. Considering that he, through Gunray, has the interest of taking down a senator, it's not surprising that he would hire a bounty hunter. The best of them. Just like it's perfectly natural that someone would hire a capable template for an army of clones. Jango fits that bill.

    But we don't know if he's correct or not. Maybe there's not conclusive information of the time of death of the Jedi who allegedly ordered the army.

    That's confirmation bias, which is a fallacy. Virtually any Jedi is a suspect. The one who deleted the files doesn't need to be an ex-Jedi.

    Assuming Jango is telling the truth.

    I disagree, as I've been pointing out.
     
  10. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Samuel Vimes
    no I'm taking the established existence of bounty hunters and adding the fact that we are dealing with a whole galaxy here and arguing that the total number of bounty hunters would be significant. Certainly a lot more than one and that a good number of them would work for the seps .

    but it's an interesting double standard you've got there - I have to provide proof of this but apparently you don't have to provide proof that the Republic hires most of the mercs .

    you know it's called Star Wars right ? the galaxy is in turmoil , thousands of planets have split away , there's bound to be lots of skirmishes and power plays , the seps need to keep certain things they're up to secret hence covert ops , assassinations etc. . I assume mercs/ bounty hunters getting plenty of employment , and you assume they get plenty of employment from the republic .

    never said they didn't , but they aren't using them yet , hence covert operations .

    bounty hunter is a more legally accepted profession , obviously they act as mercs too , hence why it's better to call all these type of free-lancers mercs

    I've never said he was hired by pure chance . So - no I can't accept this 'lottery' argument as good reason from you .

    it's very likely that someone like Jango would get a job with the seps , they would need people like him .
    it would be absurd to suggest that the seps only hired one merc/bounty hunter - all those thousands of seps planets !

    when did Dooku hire Jango before ?

    you say this is about what the Jedi know - how do they know Dooku ever hired Jango , Kenobi reports that the TF is behind the assasination attempts on Padme .But even if they do think Dooku hired Jango to work for the seps - so what , mercs aren't loyal to one side , and it's 10 years later .

    what you're doing is taking the privilleged info you get from the movies and assuming that the Jedi should know this .

    .
     
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  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No, it won't depend on anything.
    If for nothing else, this guy has been working for a military project for ten years so he would have access to all sort of classified data and him working for the KGB would be a massive security risk.
    So the military would investigate that if nothing else.

    When you are dealing with a galaxy's worth of such people then it does become an amazing stroke of luck that the same guy get hired for these two jobs.
    Even if we narrow the scope down to say the top ten people. Which given a galaxy, is an absurd low number.
    Each of these ten are equally skilled, capable, what ever, to do this job.
    So how would Dooku pick?
    Now it becomes chance, unless he knows any of them from before.

    Regardless of that, it show that other assassins do exist and thus Jango wasn't the ONLY person the galaxy that Dooku could hire to do this job.
    So Dooku could just hire Zam instead.

    Also, why did Jango hire Zam?
    The Jedi could assume that he was being careful and wanted to avoid getting caught.
    But why if so did he take on the job in the first place?
    If he is concerned about his own skin then he could turn down the job.
    The Jedi know he is getting well paid by the Kamino and thus isn't broke.
    And by paying Zam, he has less money for himself.

    Again, with a whole galaxy, the number of people capable of doing this job is big so then it becomes amazing luck that he picks Jango out of all the possibilities.
    Also, Dooku would want to hire an ASSASSIN, not a Bounty Hunter as he wants Padme killed, not captured. Such people exist, see the above mentioned Zam.
    Also, I repeat, this is from what the Jedi KNOW.
    Do they know anything about Jango Fett?
    The film doesn't imply this.
    So all this stuff about him being the best or what not, the Jedi don't know this so it is not a factor for them.

    And why then is Obi-Wan's lines IN the film?
    Why include them if the goal was not to establish this?
    Since this issue is then never brought up again, it becomes bad writing for this to be included if the goal is for the audience to think the opposite.

    All Jedi are suspect yes but since Dooku is only Jedi connected to the template of this clone army, he becomes a primary suspect.

    This is how cops normally work.
    If a person is killed in NY city, then yes anyone IN NY city is a suspect. But instead of trying to question every person in the city, they first look at the people that had contact with the deceased.
    Are there any witnesses, did he have any enemies, what are his past connections?
    All of this is an effort to narrow the scope down.
    If the cops knew that this guy ratted on some criminals and they were sent to jail and one of them was released from jail a week ago, that is now a lead. It won't prove that this is what happened but is something that the cops can now explore.

    Here the Jedi know that Dooku is connected with Jango and thus it is natural to look into this to see if they can find anything else to either confirm or disprove this.

    And what possible reason would Jango have to lie about NOT knowing about Sifo-Dyas?
    Obi-Wan assumed that he met him so what harm is there to confirm this?
    Instead, he makes Obi-Wan suspicious about this.
    And what reason would Lucas have to have this line IN the film if the goal was the opposite, that Jango knew Sifo-Dyas.

    I have a good idea why these lines are in the film, to allow the audience to know what happened, that the sith are behind the clone army and their plan was to start a war.
    The problem with the film, at least to me, is that it also makes it very obvious to the Jedi that there are a number of super suspicious things about the clone army and they should be careful and investigate further.
    But the films ignores all such matters and the Jedi look clueless and when the clones turn on them, it isn't very tragic as the Jedi are painted as morons.

    [/QUOTE]

    And I have been pointing out that only a moron would ignore all this and since the Jedi do ignore all this and wind up dead for their stupidity.

    But another question that the Jedi should ask with regards to Jango/Dooku.
    Did Jango tell Dooku about the clone army?
    Jango has been working with the clone army for almost ten years and he is sure to know who it is for, the republic.
    And if he is aware of current events he would know of the seps, Dooku and the army bill.
    So he would think that a war is likely to break out and if so, the clone army will fight the seps.
    So when the leader of the seps contacts him for a job, to kill a senator, would he tell him about the clone army?
    Jango knows about the droid army so if he figures that a war in inevitable, would it serve his interest to tell Dooku about the clone army?
    If nothing else, this would be a concern to the Jedi, Jango knows a lot about the clone army and thus he could give vital info to Dooku.

    @gezvader28
    What I am doing is taking stuff said or shown IN the films and the only assumption I have made is that the number of people that kill for money in the entire GALAXY is pretty large.
    Certainly larger than two.

    You are the ones who makes the argument that the seps are hiring a lot of mercs for covert operations and assassinations and thus the onus is on you to PROVE this.
    Prove the assassinations, the covert stuff and the seps hired mercs to do them.
    And also prove that the Jedi KNOW ABOUT IT.

    I never argued that the republic hired any mercs.
    My argument was that IF either side feels they need soldiers, then given that the seps HAVE a lot of soldiers while the republic has none, THEN the republic would be more LIKELY to hire them.
    Plus the republic is debating an army bill in the senate. IF the bill were to pass and the republic would start to build up an army, THEN mercs could also become interesting to the republic as that would be a quick way to build up an army.

    TPM was also called Star Wars, where were all the assassins and mercs there, who hired them there?

    Also, you need to read the crawl again,
    So not only are you wrong about the number of systems you are also wrong about what they are doing. They have not yet broken free, they have declared an intent to do so but they are still negotiations going on.
    So the unrest is in the senate.

    The second part talks about how the Jedi are having a harder time to keep the peace.
    So it is not as peaceful as in TPM. There is a mention of border disputes, but not assassinations.

    And again you just make stuff up and provide no proof.

    Also, I noticed that you ignored this comment;
    Again, we are talking about what the Jedi KNOW.
    And if they know or suspect that the seps, lead by Dooku, are doing all these covert operations and assassinating people, then this line becomes nonsense.

    Why obviously? You are again making stuff up.
    Bounty Hunters track people down, that is what they do.
    Those skills are not the same as being part of an army.
    And since you mentioned legally, Bounty Hunters are mostly legal but assassins are not.
    So why would Jango be hired as an assassin? If uncovered, he becomes a fugitive, a target by his former colleagues.

    As I explained above and have said many times, the number of people that are capable of doing an assassination in a whole galaxy is likely quite high. Even if we limit this number to the best of the best, you still have say 20 people. So Dooku has to pick one of these 20 to do the job he wants.
    Unless he knows one of them from before, the one he picks is now mostly random.
    Well factors like cost could be involved, but if Dooku only wants the best he is not likely to ignore someone because they are too expensive.
    If they are available or Dooku knows how to contact them could also be a factor.
    And here Jango becomes a little less likely. He is on Kamino and has been for almost ten years.
    Does Dooku know where Kamino is?
    If so that is a bit suspicious since all the other Jedi didn't.

    And why would Jango want to work with the seps?
    He knows about the clone army, who it is for and thus if the army bill is passed and the clone army is put at the service of the republic. If he is on the side of the seps and war starts, he could now become a target by his own clones.

    And you are again taking your assumptions and treat them as facts. You make up stuff about assassinations and covert operations and based on your made up claims, you say the seps would hire a lot of mercs.
    The Jedi know because Obi-Wan overheard Nute asking Dooku about if Padme was dead yet.
    So CLEARLY Dooku was the one who hired Jango and gave him the assignment to kill Padme.
    Had it been Nute, he would not have to ask Dooku.
    Also, kind of strange that Nute has harbored this grudge against Padme for ten years and yet in all that time he never tried to hire an assassin to kill her?
    The issue with Dooku hiring Jango is once again, the odds that out all the choices he had, he just happened to hire the one guy that is involved in making an army to oppose his.
    As I've said too many times to count, only an idiot would ignore this.

    And what do you know, the Jedi do ignore it and they get killed by the clones.
    That says it all really.

    In closing, since you keep making stuff up and not proving it, I have little interest in continuing this discussion.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, it would.

    But in Jango's case, there's no "classified data". His job is explained to them by the Kaminoans. And said job doesn't prevent him from doing more bounty hunter work or be hired by anyone.

    They would investigate who hired Jango for said job, not why is he working for a political leader who planned to kill the person one of his friends hates.

    Again with the confirmation bias. Those two jobs are a drop in the ocean of the many jobs he had/has.

    Says who? Do you have the resume of all of them?

    Maybe. Or by reputation, or by any other reason.

    No, he wasn't the only person. But he was a possible choice.

    Or Jango. Or both. Or none of them. The chances are the same.

    That's one possibility. The Jedi could assume other things too. My point is that they shouldn't assume anything.

    Or not.

    The possibility of hiring Jango or anybody else exists and the odds are exactly the same (assuming their capabilities and track records are the same, which they probably aren't).

    So? Bounty hunters can kill. The only requirement for a bounty hunter is the existence of a bounty. Padmé is Jango's bounty.

    Yes, they do. Zam is a bounty hunter though.

    There's what the Jedi know and what you want them to assume. The Jedi don't (and shouldn't) work on assumptions. Their minds should be clear, not clouded or biased by assumptions.
     
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  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No it wouldn't

    Really?
    You don't think that knowing the exact number of clones, what weapons they use, what kind of training they have received, where they are made, how fast they are made etc.
    That nothing of this would be of use to an enemy of the republic?

    And Jango warning Dooku about the clone army's mere existence is also something important.

    Or how about the possibility that when Jango started to work for Dooku, he told him of the clone army and Dooku told him to sabotage it if he could.

    I am somewhat reminded of Iron man 2, where the Russian bad guy starts to build Iron Man suits for the Hammer guy. And at no point does Hammer suspect that the Russian is doing something for himself and thus when all the Iron Man suits turn on him, he is totally surprised.
    Hammer was shown to be quite an idiot in that film.

    They know the why, to kill Padme. What they could question is HOW Dooku managed to pick the one person that is also involved with the clone army that will fight his army.

    And they should then factor in that a Jedi must be involved with the clone army since their archives have been tampered with. Dooku fits the bill here.
    Then they should also factor in past and current connections with Jango, Dooku again fits the bill.
    It doesn't PROVE that he is this Tyrannus, but it sure makes it POSSIBLE.
    And ignoring this possibility is moronic.


    Again with the lack of understanding, that Dooku just happened to hire the one guy that is involved in making an army that will fight his too rare to ignore.

    And how do the Jedi know how many jobs Jango has had?
    All they know is that he was hired about ten years ago and has been on Kamino ever since.
    He left recently but they don't know if that was his only trip.
    That would be something they could find out by asking the Kamino.


    I am trying to show by example how Dooku managing to pick the one Bounty Hunter that is involved in making a clone army that will fight his forces is a rather amazing co-incidence.

    Say that the best of the best, the top people that Dooku could hire for the job of killing Padme, that is just 20 people. Jango is one of them. So they are ALL capable of doing this job and Dooku has to choose which one. He can choose Jango but he could also choose any one of the 19 other people.
    But he happen to choose the one who is also making a clone army.
    Was this just co-incidence or was there something else to this?


    He is possible yes, just like getting a Royal Straight Flush in Poker is possible.
    But if one player gets such a hand twice in a row, you can bet that the other players might get suspicious.

    See above, the odds that Jango gets hired is 5%. So the odds that anyone of the 19 other people got hired is 95%.
    So while it is possible that Jango, out of all the possible people, getting hired by Dooku by just random chance, it is a bit too unlikely for them to dismiss it out of hand.


    Then they shouldn't assume that Jango working for Dooku in not important but you keep insisting that they should assume this.


    Even so, hiring an actual assassin that has more experience in assassinations is preferable to hiring someone that doesn't have that as the central part of his/her job.

    Is she? Is she ever called that IN the film?

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok, the Jedi want to find out which Jedi was involved in the clone army.
    First they can exclude the children under 15 as they either were not born when the army was ordered or were far too young.
    Second, they can probably exclude the female Jedi as whoever posed as Sifo-Dyas was apparently a man.
    Still leaves a lot of Jedi.
    But for them to right away ignore the ONE Jedi that is connected to the clone army via Jango, that is grade A stupid.

    Again, you want them to assume that Jango working for Dooku is totally not important and nothing they should investigate or worry about.
    As I have said many times, that is idiotic.
    The Jedi get handed a highly suspicious clone army and apparently make no effort o get to the bottom of the many mysteries they know surround it.
    And in the next film, the clones turn on them and wipe them out.
    This shows just how stupid the Jedi were.

    This is going round and round so I'll just say this.

    All I am asking is that the Jedi ask a question.
    "Hey, the template for the clone army also worked for Dooku, the leader of the seps. Do you think there might be a connection here?"
    That they are open to the POSSIBILITY that something might be up. That is all. And it would have satisfied me.

    But you and others seem to insist that the Jedi should never even ask this question.

    Bye
    Old Stoneface
     
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  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Ugh...

    Maybe. Maybe not. Wether there is a connection or not, they shouldn't assume nor jump to conclusions. There's no evidence to go by. He's a bounty hunter. It's not out of the ordinary that he gets the Kamino job and gets another job for a public figure. It can happen. It's possible.

    "Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be."
     
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  15. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Only one remark: is absolutely insane to think that Count Dooku, the leader of the Separatists, could purchase the Clone Army for the Republic. Why? To investigate some trace, one should at least have some theory about it. It is the less probable version to think that Dooku will make an army against himself. What we know is unknown for the Jedi, as Alexrd said.
     
  16. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    In terms of the way the story is done it provides the answer in the movie itself.

    Now is it ever going to be spelled out to the nth degree like some seemingly want it to be?

    No.

    Why don't the Jedi ask themselves the question as to why Jango who knows about both armies and works for Dooku also tell Dooku about said Clone army?

    The most obvious answer is that Jango does what he is paid to do and doesn't offer anything for free. He gets paid huge credits for his clone work as well as a place to live and for Boba to grow up as well as being paid by Dooku presumably in more recent times.

    Why would they think he wouldn't play both sides? Why would he care?

    Now you might ask the question once they see the army of clones are of him then he would be in big trouble with Dooku for not telling him but the answer isn't coming and the Jedi can't assume anything and there is not going to be any evidence they can find that will be able to reach anything but assumptions that lead nowhere.
     
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  17. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Exactly! I have followed this conversation, and this is the reason why I no longer get into conversations like this because nothing ever satisfies the questions and issues that have been brought up over and over again. No matter how complex and good the answer may be, no matter how many differet answers there may be to chose from, there will always be a "but what if", "yeah but" or some variation thereof. No matter what, if it's not how people would have done it themselves, they see no logic in it or it is stupid. After years of seeing the same questions posed, with some extraordinarily interesting and well thought out answers, the same issue is brought up just a few months later...(sometimes by the very same person)

    A while ago when I was involved in the very same conversation in another thread my answer was that more than likely the Jedi did have some suspicions when they saw Jango hanging out with the seps on Geonosis, and probably did ask questions and nvestigate. All of this just happens off screen and in the time between the two movies, and is not important for us to actually see it as part of the story. That answer was not good enough.

    The logical assumption can be made that whatever investigation the Jedi launched led them to a dead end. That they were stuck into a position where they had no choice but to use the clone army and hope that they could bring the war to a quick end. The only other choice would be to stop using the clones (which the senate was in charge of deciding on, not the Jedi, which wasn't going to happen) or for the Jedi to step away from the war, in which both cases they will watch as the Seps, being led by a Dooku that is consumed by the Dark Side will roll over the Republic, or the war would be prolonged causing far more death and destruction. That answer was not good enough.

    So I believe that the Jedi did look into the issues surrounding the clones, because the Jedi are not stupid. We just don't need to see it on screen.

    What also kills me about some of these conversations is that so many people will admit that the Prequels were about the moral grey area of the story, the characters etc etc, but, they expect the characters to make morally black or white decisions that will lead to morally grey consequences.

    Do the Jedi just excuse themselves from the war in order to satisfy their own moral code? What are the consequences if they do? Their powers and prowess in battle clearly is a benefit for the Republic that the Seps don't have.

    So if the Jedi excuse themselves from the war, and watch from the sidelines than what part do they play in watching millions, if not billions more die because of their inaction?
     
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  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    The burden of proof is on those who claim there's evidence for the Jedi to follow. There is none.
     
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  19. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    Well proof or not, I think it is reasonable to think they would have investigated as far as they could. With no proof (as you said and I agree with), it leads them to a dead end (which is what I said).

    Looking for proof is part of an investigation.
     
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    This is the PT and OT divide for some. The PT for whatever reason has to provide "proof" to make sense while for the OT it's taken as writ that it does and it has to be proven that it doesn't make sense.

    An over-generalization of course but that is the base premise.

    How does one get from the end of ANH to the start of TESB? Based on ANH the beginning of Empire should be very different. The galaxy should be in the actual civil war mentioned in the ANH open. The Empire should be striking back because they, not the Rebels, should be on the run. Without the Senate to rule through and with no Death Star to rule by fear thousands of systems should have turned against the Empire with the "better equipped than you think" Rebel fleet.

    Forget about finessing details between AOTC and ROTS like Jango!

    Yeah I just don't follow this line of reasoning they have. Somehow if Anakin were the all-around hero type who suddenly out of nowhere turned to evil they apparently would accept that and even prefer it to a character who is nuanced and is part light and dark.

    It's rather perplexing because they would rather be "surprised" at his turn and it being out of nowhere rather than as it is because some at least complain that they "see it coming".

    So the turn that is shown is "too quick" while the one some would prefer which actually is too quick is fine.
     
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  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, but their investigation is based on facts, not assumptions. Anyway, I was agreeing with you.
     
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  22. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    I know you were agreeing with me, as I was with you. Just kind of jabber jawing with you on it. :)



    Yup, and in taking with your reply to Alexrd, with relation to the OT, some fans want to talk about the morally grey consequences of what our hero's do, specifically Luke as he makes his morally black and white decisions, ie blowing up the Death Star.

    However in the PT, they want to pretend that there is no morally grey consequences to the Jedi deciding to not be a part of the war, that it wouldn't be a hard decision for the Jedi to make, or that they were wrong in their decision in taking part in said war. That the Jedi were bad, or corrupt from making the decision to join the war.

    Now I know there is a quote from Lucas that the war was corrupting the Jedi, which is fine, anyone that fights in a war is corrupted to a degree. That's what fighting a war does to good people. That is why we have soldiers that have severe issues when they come home from a war. PTSD is a huge problem for our returning troops, but, certainly for a lot of them it is the thoughts of the horrible things they have had to do to another human being, the conflict that it causes with their own morals and beliefs. It changes good people.

    So in the end, while there is a corrupting nature to war and what good people have to do in those circumstances, it still doesn't mean that the Jedi had an easy and morally black and white decision to make.
     
  23. Rossini18

    Rossini18 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Yep- Mace is pretty dense, but therefore, the Jedi all were at the time, even Yoda. The Sith had beat them and completely at their own game. The Jedi were pretty complacent and foolish in this era, which worked to the Sith's advantage.
     
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  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It's a huge error. Yoda provides regular dire warnings to Jedi about the dangers of things that are the path to the dark side. But as soon as Dooku quits and then reacquires possessions, title, things to grow attached to, political influence, etc they don't give any serious consideration to Dooku being capable of killing anyone or doing anything un-Jedi like. In fact they are quite patronising about it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That's because they had trusted him to still walk the Jedi path. They couldn't sense his true feelings as he had buried them deep down.