ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

Why would anyone view a film through the villain's point of view? Unless you are the actor trying to portray the villain of course.

Something is deeply wrong with our society if we desire to spend so much time making and watching stories that offer childish and inaccurate excuses for why we think it's ok to be bad or misbehave sometimes.

 

It's only a story. You're only watching it/reading it.

You might as well have just condemned every kid who has ever dressed up as Darths Vader or Maul, or played with their AT-ATs Tie Fighters etc

And I don't know where did you get the impression that the movie provided, or people sought " childish and inaccurate excuses for why we think it's ok to be bad or misbehave sometimes." Do you seriously think that TFA is enouraging people to think that because the villainous character happens to be misguided, above all else. Who said it was ok? And since when were movies where everything that people did in them was "ok" the only ones permissible?

Spoiler

And lets be honest. Nobody expects Ren's story to end happily or particularly well for him. We're not looking for everyone to just realise Kylo is misunderstood and forget what he's done.

This crudely inferred relativism strawman just seems to indicate some people's discomfort at having anything other than black and white characters whose actions and motives are predictable without having any understanding of their point of view.

 

Dangerous words. People who make films do so because they have a story they want to tell. It comes from inside their heart and mind, the very person that they have become. When people watch films, or view any medium of art for that matter, they immediately try and connect that story to their own life and experiences, a process Aristotle noted thousands of years ago.

Even someone who says "I don't like serious movies, I just want to watch something carefree and fun" is describing the type of person they are.

Why would I condemn a kid? If I had a son I would certainly be more proud if he told me he wanted to dress up as Luke Skywalker or Han Solo, and if I had a daughter, I would certainly be more proud if she told me she wanted to dress up as Princess Leia or Rey, and not Darth Vader or Darth Maul. But regardless, I don't think it's appropriate to criticize children who aren't old enough and not experienced enough to have healthy understandings of the world around them.

I do think it is within bounds, however, to criticize--positively and negatively-- the filmmakers, who are grown adults, and should be making films that are honest, sincere, and culturally moralistic. One can make any kind of movie, a war movie with grisly deaths, a horror movie, a space opera, a comedy, a drama, a cartoon for very young children, and still deliver a powerful message that accurately and sincerely reflects a "good" vision of the world or what we think the world should be like.

The best example I can think of comes from the original trilogy: Vader's redemption. Here is a man who did all sorts of evil things. He betrayed people. He murdered people. He was complicit in blowing up an entire planet. Could someone as evil as Vader really find redemption and forgiveness for all of the bad things he ever did, just because he was moved to save his own son? Is that how the real world works? If a brutal dictator had thousands or millions of people killed, if he saved his own son's life, is he suddenly forgiven for all of his other crimes? What about that Alderaanian guard whose throat Vader crushed in the first scene of the first movie? Didn't his life matter? Are someone like his wife and kids suddenly happy because his murderer committed another self-serving act, like saving his own son's life?

Well, the answers to all of these questions I posed is of course no. From a real-world perspective, Vader could never be redeemed simply because he saved his own son's life and murdered the Emperor. If you want to view the entire Star Wars saga and franchise as the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, then I would emphatically argue that is a false story. The reason why Vader's redemption works in the original trilogy, is because the original story is Luke's story. We are not happy for Vader/Anakin. We are happy for Luke. That is an honest and sincere story. The idea that he could save whatever good was left of his father, that is something that is passable in the real world. It wouldn't make up for all of the evil Vader had ever done in his life, but since we get to experience the redemption through Luke specifically, it is something that is honest and sincere and good storytelling.

This is why I loathe "the saga" idea of Star Wars being Anakin Skywalker's story. And why I loathe the new Disney films. The idea that we can explain away our bad guys as misguided people just trying to find their way in the world, and then attempt to pass that off as PG movies for children, is disgusting in my opinion. It reflects poorly on the motivations of the filmmakers, and it reflects poorly on us if we consume stories like this and find them comparable to our view of what the world is like or what we think it should be like. If the direction this story is going is exploring the emotional growing pains of emo bad guy good guy Kylo Ren, then count me out. I want nothing to do with such a lame narrative.

 

No disrespect but that is some really astounding thought policing there.

 

What is it you take issue with? The original trilogy, as it existed for a long time, was a story about Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and their pals, struggling against the evil oppression of the Galactic Empire. They were successful in their rebellion because one, they tapped into a mystical, spiritual power that made them stronger than their physical selves, and two, because they were loyal to each other. That was the story of the original Star Wars films.

What was the story of the prequel films? What is the story of "the saga"? What is the story of the sequel films? The Disney movies I don't think we can say with certainty yet, since only one of them is out. But I disliked the way the duel in TFA played out. I disliked the way that Rey's and Kylo's characters were portrayed. I don't know about all of the "Mary Sue" talk, and I'm all for a strong female protagonist, but I didn't feel like Rey earned her stripes in the movie. Some things she did, other things felt like she's just this super wonder who always has a contrived get-out-of-jail free card. I don't think that's an honest story that accurately reflects life. Luke had his successes and failures. He was whiny in the first movie, cocky in the second, and finally mature in the third. He gets blasted by the droid, but then he keeps practicing. He blows up the Death Star, but then he rushes off to Bespin and gets his *** kicked by Vader. You know, Luke's arc in the three movies was that if you train hard enough and your heart is in the right place, you'll eventually get it right. And that may or may not be true in the world, but it's certainly a view that most people like to believe in.

As this pertains to TFA, my expectation would have been that Kylo has been trained in the force and would have easily dispatched with Rey and Finn, but was held back for some emotional reason. Then, the chasm opens up and saves Rey and Finn, not the other way around. Sometimes expectations being defied can be a positive thing, but it definitely was not for me in this case. The idea that Rey could just magically win such a fight seems ridiculous (is there anything she can't do?), and at the same time seriously diminished Kylo's appeal as a threatening villain. The idea that he's not even supposed to be a villain seems even less interesting if you ask me.

 

I don't know what you're criteria for how Rey needed to earn he "stripes" has got to do with Ren's villainy? Or any of your couched inb forty years of hindsight suggestions for the propriety of the structure of Luke's story.

...was never presented in the film. But it is a popular way of characterizing it among some fans who have an affinity with the broad structure of the conflicts spread across previous trilogies. And it's the strawman ("just") argument again.

Where did you get the idea that Ren isn't supposed to be a villain? That's the strawman again right there.

 

We're talking about the duel in TFA. Rey, who had virtually no experience or training in the force, could never be expected to win a fight against someone like Kylo, who had trained at it for years. Even if one wants to come up with some ridiculous argument, that Rey is the most powerful Jedi in waiting of all time, or had already trained as a Jedi and forgotten about it because of amnesia or something, and Kylo is just a wannabe...well none of those things were portrayed in the rest of the film. Kylo demonstrates sufficient prowess with his force powers in all of the other scenes, that one cannot simply accept him losing to Rey in the final battle. Rey showed nothing in between the scene where she was captured by Kylo without any effort whatsoever, and the scene where she fought Kylo, and can suddenly beat his ***. The internal logic of the film was simply not consistent.

It is an accurate way of characterizing it among those of us who are critical of the way the story was conceived or executed on screen.

Some people have suggested it in order to defend Kylo's portrayal in the film.

 

I'm sorry but we were talking about Ren's motives and his disposition in the duel and the movie as a whole but now you're talking about Rey's magic.

That's what I said. For those of you willing to do so, it is handy to characterize it as Rey "just" magically winning.

Nobody has suggested that Ren is not a villain. (There's the straw man again) He's just not and is not intended to be the villain or kind of villain that some people want.

 

Exactly. He isn't Vader 2.0, though he desperately wants to be. That means he's unlike any previous Star Wars villain. OTOH, that doesn't mean that he's some kind of attempt to excuse evil.

 

I've always encouraged my son to love the villains more lol. I pushed for Darth Maul and Sidious, but he absolutely loves Darth Vader and Kylo Ren. I guess it's the helmets. When a duel comes on he drops what he's doing, picks up his red FX saber, and goes nuts running around the house. His favorite line of the Saga: "I'll show you the Dark Side". I grew up loving the villains: Imperials, Sith, bounty hunters, Cobra Command, HYDRA, Alien, Predator, Terminator, orcs... you name it. But I haven't committed any murders. Yet!

 

sith_rising That is so wrong.

 

To understand the characterization? Get an idea how things fit together? For the heck of it? Take your pick.

Thing is, most villains think they're the hero of the story; that they're in the right. That's often true in real life, too. So, usually, a well-written villain will have good reason to believe what they do and the agenda they're advancing.

On top of that, most evil people don't start out as the Darth Vaders and Emperors right away. In many cases, they started from a better place but had a fall for whatever reason. It's truer to real life, makes for better storytelling, and introduces more moral complexity. If handled right, you get a more thought-provoking story out of the deal.

I think you're confusing characterization with ethics. Being able to understand or pity why with why a villain became the villain is different from justifying them.

 

i recently watched this video and thought the analysis was pretty good. i'm don't really know anything about lightsaber forms though. i don't know if others also would see this as a good analysis?

 

Not sure how much this has already been discussed, but what do people think about the potential similarities between this duel and the Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul fight in TPM?




Like Rey in TFA, Obi-Wan goes into this battle as the clear underdog (perhaps not as much as Rey, but there's already been more than enough discussion about that in this thread...). Maul had previously been able to more than hold his own against both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in tandem, before convincingly defeating Qui-Gon in a one-on-one.

Enter Obi-Wan, who appears to gain a second wind - perhaps even fuelled by the Dark Side - and nearly overpowers Maul. Maul ultimately gains the upper hand and Obi-Wan is on the ropes - but Kenobi finds a moment of inspiration and destroys his enemy.

Rey's second wind materialises after the above shot, and she dominates the remainder of the duel.

I'm not saying this means anything (although I'm always partial to a Rey Kenobi theory ), but just thought there were some interesting parallels between the two fights.

 

All fights are bound to have some similarity and produce parallels. I've seen more parallels pointed out between Mustafar and Snow fight than OB1/Maul and Snow fight, for example. So they are not to be taken as anything more than a callback or simply similar cause there's always a red lightsaber and a blue or a green one.

I've seen people trying to gauge Rey's parentage from her fighting moves, fighting stance, fighting snarl, etc. Reaching. Fights never show that.

 

Yep, and as I said I'm not trying to draw those sorts of conclusions from this fight. I very much meant "I'm always partial to a Rey Kenobi theory" in a tongue-in-cheek manner.

The purpose of my post was to examine some of the cinematic and plot features of the two scenes because I think there are some interesting parallels.

 

It was terrible. The part where she concentrates was just cringeworthy. They went for subverting the DiD trope and overdid it.

Instead of gradually growing into her powers, Rey gets everything cool handed to her. She's strong with the Force, expert pilot, excellent with a blaster, good fighter and an expert engineer. Basically all the good qualities of Luke, Han and Leia.

The villain gets laid out on his butt like some damn buffoon. And this is just the first movie of the trilogy.

 

What's the "DiD trope"?

 

I love the fight but I hate how it ends. I also thought her 'letting the Force in' moment was cringeworthy. You either buy that or you don't. And I really didn't. That close-up that they added of her swiping the saber downwards in slow-mo is terrible as well.. Supposedly that was a Spielberg idea? And the ground splitting wasn't that great of an idea either. Why not have Hux show up and actually create a proper reason for Rey backing off. It's just a bunch of tacky moments strung together that made me roll my eyes towards the end there.

 

The planet's self destruction isn't a proper reason for Rey not to kill him?


Penny just dropped on DiD trope.

 

If you think so, fair enough.

She had to learn the piloting, fighting and engineering the hard way through her life on Jakku prior to the movie. Granted the tie-ins do suggest that she had a knack for engineering, a la Firefly's Kaylee Frye, but still, she did have to work to keep it up. The tie-ins make it clear she had to practiced a lot to have piloting skills. There's nothing "handed" to her here.

Not sure where the idea of her being good with a blaster came from, since if you watch the movie, she's actually a pretty sloppy shot.

The Force I will grant to an extent, but she doesn't do anything that spectacular with it in comparison to other newbie Force users (and all Force users are just "handed" it, anyways).

He was fighting through severe handicaps and still almost won. Given that and the movie making a point that he's still in training to become the big bad villain, I'm not sure that he's been made a buffoon just yet.