Saga Why is the light side bad? (Balance in the Force)

?!

What are you saying, then? The Jedi control their emotions.

What connections? The ones that require commitment and dedication to a few? They are simply incompatible with the Jedi way.

That's completely missing the point. Anakin's relationship with Padmé was not merely compassionate (which is not forbidden). It was passionate and an attachment. It's Anakin who should follow the Jedi way (if he wanted to be a Jedi), not the Jedi that should pander Anakin. If Anakin wanted to be a Jedi, he had to let go of everything and be selfless. If he wanted a relationship with Padmé and dedicate his life to her, then he shouldn't be a Jedi. You can't have it both ways.

I don't need to pretend. They did act rational and wisely with the information and knowledge they had.

Easy to judge with the audience's omniscient POV.

 

Friendship is not attachment as defined in "Star Wars". Attachment is defined as prizing one person above all others. Where you left fear, anger, hate and all those other negative emotions get in the way. When Anakin is injured on Ryloth, Ahsoka isn't willing to leave Anakin's side in order to find help. She's acting out of fear. Aayla and Rex convince her to leave.

AAYLA: "I can still sense your worry for Anakin, your attachment to him."

AHSOKA: "It's just I get so confused sometimes. It's forbidden for Jedi to form attachments, yet we are supposed to be compassionate."

AAYLA: "It is nothing to be ashamed of, Ahsoka. I went through the same process when I was your age with my own Master."

AHSOKA: "Really? You?"

AAYLA: "He was like a father to me. I realized that for the greater good, I had to let him go. Don't lose a thousand lives just to save one."

AHSOKA: "Maybe. But that doesn't mean that I can't try to save his life."


AHSOKA: "You were right all along, Master Secura."

AAYLA: "About what?"

AHSOKA: "If I had stayed with Anakin, we probably wouldn't have found this village in time to save him."


Then there's when Ahsoka and Barriss were buried alive on Geonosis.

ANAKIN: "I knew they were still alive. I told you not to give up on them."

LUMINARA: "It's not that I gave up, Skywalker, but unlike you, when the time comes, I am prepared to let my student go. Can you say the same?"

Jedi have friends, but they're trained to let go of them when the time comes. To accept the ways of the Force, which is that people come and go in your life. They will die. Do not give into your emotions because of them. Because you fear to lose them. Read those last eight quotes again, slowly.

 

Telling people not to from passionate bonds with others is a suppression of a basic human trait. Controlling it is one thing. Telling Jedi to ignore it was unrealistic. Even Obi-Wan formed a passionate relationship during his life.

Luke's emotional connection to his father is what prompted him to save him. He was in control of this feeling (from the most part) and approached it from a logical standpoint. But it was the emotional attachment that lead him to have the desire to save him from the dark side.

Well that actually is the whole point. The prequel era Jedi way was flawed. It asked people to ignore basic human tenancies, such as developing love for a specific individual. Anakin could have been a Jedi and also have a perfectly healthy life with Padme had it not been forbidden.

The Jedi were too quick to get involved in the conflict. They did not take the time to ask how a clone army just appeared on their doorstep. The orchistrator of the war was right on their doorstep and they did not see it. You don't need to have an omniscient view to see that the Sith were clenching their fist around the Jedi. You just need to not be blinded by your own arrogance, which the Jedi were.

You see, it's not one extreme or the other though. You shouldn't value one person over all others, no. That's what lead to Anakin's fall. But an emotional connection to certain individuals is not something to be suppressed. Controlled? Yes. But don't pretend it's not there.

Why are you being condescending???

 

Obi-wan didn't have a passionate relationship with Satine, nor Anakin. What he had was a healthy relationship. Where he was willing to let them go, as he did Qui-gon. No one says that they cannot care for people. But they cannot become attached to them.

No, it was his compassion that prompted him to save his father. He felt unconditional love for his father, which is defined as compassion. An unconditional love is love that is not selfish. It is a love that is encouraged by the Jedi.

ANAKIN: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would defined as unconditional love is essential to a Jedi's life. So you can say that we are encouraged to love."

Their marriage being forbidden wasn't what turned Anakin to the dark side. It was having an unhealthy attachment to her that was the problem. Anakin was afraid to lose Padme and he vowed to do whatever it took to save her, including betraying his friends by killing them and turning to the dark side in order to save her. It was all about what he wanted, not about what she wanted. Her feelings didn't matter to him...even when she tells him that she doesn't need his saving and that he is wrong to do what he did. If all you think about is yourself, that's attachment. That's selfishness. That is the dark side. You have to think of others above all other considerations. If it was Padme's destiny to die, then so be it. He should have accepted it.

The Jedi knew that the Sith started the war, but what they didn't know was that Palpatine was the Sith Lord that they've bee looking for. It never occurred to them that the Sith were creating a false war in order to control both sides and consolidate power. The Jedi knew how the Clone Army came out. That one of their own had apparently gone rogue and was responsible. But the Clonetroopers were going to be used regardless of the Jedi's involvement. They just utilized their resources.

 

Obi-Wan had romantic feelings for Satine. That's passionate.

It is a specific love though. Not just an unconditional, collective love. Had Vader not been Luke's father, he would not have felt as prompted to try and save him. In fact, Yoda and Obi-Wan advised him not to.

Their marriage being forbidden absolutely played a MAJOR role in what turned Anakin to the dark side. If his marriage were allowed, he would have sought help from the Jedi in stopping his visions from coming true. Yes, Yoda told him to train himself to let go of everything he fears to lose. But it would have been of greater help if Anakin was able to tell him "my wife is going to die, I have foreseen it." But he couldn't, for he would have been removed from the Order.

Maybe they would have been more aware if they stopped and took a closer look before intervening. They knew the Sith had control of the senate, after all...

 

I never understood why people say the Jedi suppressed emotion. They quite emotional throughout the films. Maybe it's because of those silly mottos "there is no emotion there is peace."

 

And recently, that ended up being modified slightly - "Emotion, yet peace" (Kanan comic). (The EU had done something similar before that - but the Kanan comic is the first time w've seen the "Emotion, yet peace" version in the PT era).

 

They are trained to suppress passionate love. No doubt about that.

I agree that is what the Jedi SHOULD have been encouraging. But the Jedi did not believe in sharing romantic love. They believed those feelings should be let go but for some, that's like asking them to give up air.

 

Also, the thing people always leave out, joining the Jedi is a choice and so is leaving it. You are not a slave there. You can leave.

 

Yet for almost all of the Jedi in the 1000 years up to and including the Clone Wars, they were raised in that organization from birth, raised not to think of themselves as truly part of society. If Jedi were raised more like everyone else, with parents and normal childhoods and allowed to marry and have kids, and just taught how to not let their emotions control them and override their reasoning and morality, then they would be much stronger and more in-touch with their "humanity" and with the Force itself. And being able to leave the Jedi would then seem more like an option, not something only 20 Jedi had ever done... or even better, not have the Jedi being an organization and be more of a loose, decentralized affiliation of individuals.

 

I don't know if The Jedi Council would have agreed with you on that considering you get expelled if you get married.

100%

 

Of course, that's unhealthy.

That's where Jedi training can come in.

 

The living without air thing is a metaphor. Don't over-analyze that. But the Jedi do ask their followers to give up what could be considered an essential part of human relationships.

 

Passionate love.

 

You're not a Jedi to follow your "basic human traits", whatever they are. You're a Jedi to dedicate your life to others, to be completely selfless. If want to have a family, you can't be a Jedi. If you want to let emotions ("basic human traits") rule your life, you can't be a Jedi.

The Jedi don't ignore (that's not even possible). They control.

No, he didn't.

Luke didn't have an emotional connection to Vader. He felt compassion for him when he discovered he was his father. But that's it. Compassion. If your argument is that compassion is also emotion, then that leads to another discussion. You don't need to control compassion (unlike passion) or joy (unlike pleasure). Those are passive emotions and not what the Jedi warn about.

Saying so doesn't make it so.

Read above.

No, he couldn't. We saw what happened with his mother. There's a reason why attachment is forbidden. Marriage is a form of attachment. Family as well.

There was no time (or clues to follow) to begin with. Watch AotC. War was happening. The Republic was going to be invaded.

You don't value your family over everyone else?

Nobody is pretending anything. To surpress is to control. To surpress is not to pretend it's not there. Quite the contrary. And emotional connection to an individual leads to attachment and fear of loss.

 

In the newcanon Kanan comic, Jedi Council Master Depa Billaba had some wise words for Kanan:


"You must not grow too attached, too fond, too in love with life as it is now. Those emotions are valuable and should not be suppressed...but you must learn to rule them, Padawan, lest they rule you."


It makes a distinction between ruling an emotion, and suppressing an emotion.

It also allows for being attached, without being too attached.

One can value one's family a bit more than everyone else, without falling into immorality.
An example might be a cop, who values their loved ones, but if they catch their loved one in a major crime, arrests them and turns them in. Or reports them to the other cops, who handle it, if the cop doubts their own objectivity.
Same with a judge, or something similar.
The married Jedi, could handle things in the same sort of way.

 

Not talking about emotions ruling your life. I'm talking about allowing freedom to experience certain emotions within limits.

It is impossible to ignore it. Which is why it is unrealistic to expect Jedi to disregard certain feelings such as passion.

Oh really? Obi-Wan didn't have a romantic connection with Satine? Revisionism.

Of course Luke had an emotional connection to Vader. Before he found out he was his father, he wanted to KILL him. After he found out he was his father, he wanted to SAVE him. That's not a turnaround based on logical, humanitarian compassion. That's based on familial love. A paternal bond that Luke developed. If Luke never finds out Vader is his father, he wouldn't feel any need to try to redeem him. That is NOT something that is purely coming from philosophical compassion. That is specific, individually directed love.

Ok, don't do that little "saying so doesn't make it so" thing. That's just rude. You may not like what I have to say and you may not agree with it. But don't disregard it as "saying so doesn't make it so." I've posted several paragraphs explaining why I believe what I believe. So please, don't resort to that kind of underhanded statement.

That was an example of Anakin losing control of his emotions. Doesn't mean he couldn't have been with Padme. What destroyed that relationship was his visions and inability to seek help about them

There was plenty of time to investigate between AOTC and ROTS.

I do value family over others. So did Luke Skywalker. The key is knowing how to control that love.

To suppress is to bury and attempt to ignore. Controlling would be allowing yourself to experience emotions while not letting them overtake you.