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Saga Why is the light side bad? (Balance in the Force)

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by MilakeRaznus, May 6, 2016.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Obi-wan loved Satine, but that's not really passionate love. He loved her, but not enough to leave the Jedi Order for her. Nor to try and do what Anakin did. That's why he confronted Anakin about that with regards to Padme.

    ANAKIN: "I simply feel she is vulnerable to her emotions."

    OBI-WAN: "She is or you?"

    ANAKIN: "What are you implying?"

    OBI-WAN: "Anakin, I understand to a degree what is going on. You've met Satine. You know I once harbored feelings for her. It's not that we're not allowed to have these feelings. It's natural."

    ANAKIN: "Senator Amidala and I are simply friends."

    OBI-WAN: "And friends you must remain. As a Jedi, it is essential you make the right choice, Anakin, for the Order."

    Compassion was a big part of Anakin's salvation and a lack thereof that helped turn him. See, when Obi-wan injures Anakin, he's surprised that it happened. Anakin cannot believe that he would do that. And because he does not kill him, nor try to save him, this builds up great anger and hatred towards Obi-wan and helps cement his being Vader. When Luke spares him, he does so out of compassion which is unconditional love. He forgives him for all of his crimes, both the ones that he knows of and the ones that he doesn't know. This act of compassion stirs something in him, as Lucas notes. He loves him despite every damnable thing he's done to Luke and to everyone else. Luke is the one good thing to come out of his relationship with Padme.

    But it is more than just that they're family, it is the fact that he spared him when he couldn't do it for Dooku. He hated Dooku so much for his arm, for the threats to Padme, for all the suffering of the war, but he couldn't bring himself to grant mercy to him. Even when he knew it was wrong to kill him, he did it because of his own selfish desire to snuff him out. And so when he sees that Luke could do what he couldn't do, this and their relationship saves him.

    But that's the thing, he did tell Yoda that he wanted his help to stop someone that he cared for from dying. And Yoda would still tell him that, even if marriage was allowed because what Anakin wanted was not possible. He wanted to use the Force to stop Padme from dying. He thought that the Council knew how to do that and that they withheld that from him. Palpatine offered him what he wanted which was the power to control life and death, essentially playing God. Remember, he told Padme that he should be the most powerful Jedi ever. That he should be able to stop people from dying by using the Force and he wasn't going to take no for an answer.

    First, they didn't know until after Dooku told them. Second, they didn't believe him because the Sith have a reputation for lying and creating mistrust. But they also agree to keep an eye on the Senate, to see if Darth Sidious did indeed have some form of control. That's why they ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine. They suspect him to either be under his influence, or is just a corrupt politician of the worst sort.

    Which is what Anakin and Padme's relationship was. When they talk about being so in love with each other and Padme saying, "So love has blinded you?" That's a big hint that yes, that is what is happening. Love has blinded them both. He's so in love with her that he will make a deal with the devil to keep her in his life and she is blinded by her love for him, that she cannot see this. She had glimpses here and there, like their dealings with Rush Clovis and his reaction to the Blue Shadow Virus.
     
  2. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I don't believe that's true, and it kind of diminishes Obi-wan.

    He loved Satine as much as Anakin loved Padme... but his love did not turn possessive, and he did not let his emotions rule him and override his rationality or morality. And Obi-wan always could have decided that being with Satine was the rational and moral thing to do, he just didn't decide that.


    I don't think everyone here agrees on what passionate love is... or that some are confusing it with the possessive/needy/clingy/self-centered love that Anakin had for Padme.
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    The Lawless:

    Obi-Wan: "Had you said the word, I would have left the Jedi Order."
     
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  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, but Obi-wan doesn't just leave the Jedi Order on his own accord. He would have if she had asked him to do so, yes. But not enough on his own to say, "I'm number 21."

    A Jedi can love a person with all their heart, but they also need to temper those emotions. Remember, Lucas makes it clear that it isn't wrong for Anakin to love Padme, but he confuses compassionate love with possessive love. That's why I said that people need to read what Lucas said.
     
  5. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    That's what I said... if by "temper those emotions" you mean not be ruled by emotions that conflict with morality.

    True love... not possessive love or necessarily romantic love... is the emotion that defines morality. That's the only emotion that a Jedi should surrender to... and what it means when a Jedi says "feel, don't think, use your instincts"... and what it means to surrender your will to follow the will of the Force.

    Anakin just confuses possessive love with true, compassionate love.

    But Jedi in the PT don't understand it's possible to passionately love someone, marry them, have kids with them... and it not become possessive love. Or that a Jedi can come from being raised with parents and a normal childhood/adolescence and still be successfully trained as a Jedi, like Luke ended up being.
     
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  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi understood that, that's why they forbade it because the Sith rose in part because their members either wanted to control the galaxy, or they fell because of attachments to their loved ones. That's why they trained their Jedi to love, but love compassionately. And Luke himself does not have a family because Han and Leia. He chooses instead to live the life of a Jedi without creating a family of his own.
     
  7. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    This post doesn't make sense in response to what I wrote.
     
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    That's a selfish attitude.

    Passion is selfish and possessive. And they don't disregard it. They acknowledge it and control it.

    No, he didn't. He had feelings for her. He didn't act on them nor did he let those feelings dictate his actions.

    It's based on compassion, unconditional love. He wanted to kill him because for all he knew he had killed his father. Turns out he was his father.

    Again, it's compassionate love. Not passionate love. He eventually let go of his father and was ready to die than to fall.

    I said it because you were repeating the same thing after I had already refuted your argument.

    Because he was attached to his mother. It's the reason for why Jedi begin training as infants. Attachment for your family makes it more important than everyone else. And said attachment can be exploited and used against you.

    Of course it does. If he's with Padmé he's not being a Jedi. If he's a Jedi and has a relationship with Padmé then he's failing Padmé because he's not with her when she needs him and he's putting her life at risk as well.

    What destroyed him, her and the Jedi was his inability to let go. His visions were of an inevitability: death. Death is a natural part of life and he couldn't accept that Padmé was eventually going to die. Because he loved her and fed that relationship and attachment in secret, he was unable to accept and control his fear of loss. That's something that was going to happen eventually, with or without visions.

    There is no time or clues to investigate. In TCW it only happened because they randomly stumbled upon Sifo Dyas' ship.

    The key is that if you want to be a Jedi you must be completely selfless. And in order to do that, you must let go of everything, including your family and loved ones. You can't be a Jedi if you rush to your family whenever you sense that they are in danger. You can't be a Jedi if your family is more important than some random citizen.

    No, that's an oxymoron. You can't ignore what you are surpressing. That's why you're surpressing, because it's not something that can be ignored.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Sounds downright oppressive - a kind of slavery that your parents volunteer you for by handing you over to the Order.

    Hence the Zygerrian Queen taunting Anakin by calling him a slave of the Republic, in the TCW slavers arc.
     
  10. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Alexrd just really like the Jedi as they were depicted in the PT... austere servants of the Republic. I don't think he can be persuaded otherwise.






    But Alexrd...
    -it's healthy to have some self-love too, you need to have balance (you can't love/treat others as yourself if you don't love yourself, you're a person too, just don't let pride put yourself and your needs and wants above others just because it's you)
    -passion isn't inherently selfish or possessive
    -you can be attached to your family without turning to the dark side and becoming Darth Vader
    -you can learn to master your emotions while still having a normal childhood with parents, getting married, and having your own kids
    -the Jedi could have been different, Anakin could have been both a Jedi and openly married to Padme, and not have turned to the dark side
    -you can have more personal love for your family, but still have equal compassionate love for everyone, and have mastery over your feelings and never do something like Anakin did with killing Jedi to save Padme
    -suppressing is indeed an ATTEMPT to bury and ignore, an attempt to cut it off, but often just drives it to your subconscious and makes it unhealthy and imbalanced... where the Jedi should not suppress, they should master their feelings instead of being mastered by them
     
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  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Not all romantic love is passionate, nor does it need to be. "Passionate" implies an emotion that is domineering, controlling and possesses you, superseding any other life priority.

    It is possible to love someone romantically but it not resemble a bad supermarket paperback.

    Anakin was told that his feelings made him "special," indicating that he had every right to be dominated by them and allow them to make his decisions for him. Therein lay the problem.

    And Anakin did seek help for his visions, and he received help, but he only wanted help on his terms. The only answer Yoda could have given that would have been satisfying to him would have been "we will pool every resource we have into saving the life of whoever this person is." That was not a promise that Yoda could make, nor was he obligated to try.
     
  12. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2016

    The experience of emotions is not selfish. It's what makes us human. Emotions allow for compassion. Without emotions, there is no sympathy for others. Emotions inform you. That is their highest function.

    Passion is not always selfish and possessive. Passion is the emotion that allows for the deepest form of connection BETWEEN people.

    They had romantic feelings for each other. That's a romantic connection.

    Unconditional love for his father. A individualized type of love that the Prequel Jedi would have discouraged.

    While you have made some solid points, you haven't refuted anything. You are giving yourself too much credit.

    It wasn't that Anakin couldn't accept that Padme was eventually going to die. He couldn't live with the idea that she would die at childbirth. He felt there was some way he could save her. In his need to keep his love for her secret, he was unable to find adequate guidance.

    A Jedi must be selfless, yes. But to be selfless is not to devoid all of your actions of emotional influence for reasons I have already stated.

    Notice I said TRY to ignore. Stop cherry picking.
     
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  13. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    You see, I don't think "passionate" implies domineering, controlling, or possessiveness at all.

    To me, "passionate" just means "deeply-felt."

    That's why I wrote earlier: "I don't think everyone here agrees on what passionate love is... or that some are confusing it with the possessive/needy/clingy/self-centered love that Anakin had for Padme. "

    I agree that you should not be dominated by your feelings, allowing them to control you without regard to morality.
     
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  14. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    As we talked about before, and to which you do not agree, morality is relevant. There are some values that are so fundamental that they come close to being absolute.
     
  15. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Is that addressed to me? Because I've been arguing that morality is extremely relevant and there are moral absolutes.
     
  16. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012

    Yes. However, I do think we disagree to the extent that there are moral absolutes and the role of moral relavitism. While I think there are very few absolutes and give greater weight to moral relavitism, I think you take the opposite view.
     
  17. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Ok. But where are you disagreeing with what I've recently posted here on page 16?
     
  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    ?! It's not oppressive if you're selfless. And how is being selfless a form of slavery? Using a slaver's opinion of which "selflessness" is not part of her vocabulary is not really helpful either.

    See, that's the difference between you and me. My preferences have nothing to do with it. What I want is irrelevant. What matters is what the person who created them wants them to be. And that's how they are depicted in the movies. I don't get to decide what the Jedi are. I didn't create them. Lucas did. And time and time again their ways and rules are established to exist for a reason.

    - What do you consider "self-love"? How does it prevent you from caring/dedicating your life for others?
    - Yes, it is. That's why it's not the same as love.
    - True. What you can't is be a Jedi and remain attached to your family.
    - Same as above.
    - No, he couldn't. Marriage is an attachment and commitment, both incompatible with the Jedi way.
    - No, you can't. That's why if it comes to decide between your child and someone else, you rush to save your child even if the odds of success aren't necessarily in favor of that choice. And even if you could, it would take decades which is not really pratical to the Jedi.
    - Suppressing is to recognize and control, nothing more. And it's not unhealthy or imbalanced. The Jedi Order has been that way for thousands of years. And to master one's feelings is exactly what the Jedi do.
     
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  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Because, to a slaver, the ideal slave would be someone who treats them exactly the way a selfless person treats everybody - they devote themselves to service of the slaver.

    In real life, slaves serve because they're coerced into it - but a slave who has been taught from birth that it's the only moral way to live - would act a lot like a Jedi - being 'perfectly selfless'.


    The argument "The Republic is one great slaveowner and the Jedi are its slaves" isn't all that farfetched. The difference being that unlike real slaveowners, the Republic didn't buy or kidnap Jedi - the parents handed them over into servitude.
     
  20. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012


    Yes, I am starting to get annoyed that you are starting to constantly derail threads by your snarky comments and condescending attitude toward others. If you want to discuss further PM me.
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    When the answer to the question: "What is a Jedi" is:


    "Someone (with powers) who is raised from infancy to be a perfectly selfless servant (of the Republic)"


    then it seems just a little offbeat.


    I see post-ROTJ Luke as somewhat selfless - but a long way from being perfectly selfless. And the post-ROTJ Jedi Order that Luke founds, as similar - it won't require the precise degree of "detachment" "avoidance of attachment" etc that the PT Jedi Order did.
     
  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Still not comparable. A Jedi is a person who chose to be selfless, to dedicate his/her life to others. A slave has no choice and is forced to serve one person. Just because someone does a service doesn't make him a slave.

    Except that's not what happens. They are taught the Jedi way to live.

    Of course it is farfetched. And that's far from being the only difference. The Republic is a democracy who chose the Jedi as their guardians of peace and justice. In turn the Jedi with their powers accept that role by the will of the people. It's a symbiotic relationship. To compare it to slavery is a non sequitur. Can't believe I need to explain this.
     
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  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The ability to freely choose becomes somewhat limited, when the people who want you to "choose selflessness" are the ones raising you from infancy.

    "The will of the people" can be a dangerous thing at times.
    If a person is committed to do nothing but service though - with no life other than service - without pay - it's a bit closer to slavery than "employment".
     
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  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Are you limited to your family values/ideals/whatever? That "limitation" (if one can even call it that) happens anywhere.

    Yes, it can.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Of course, "the will of the Force" can be a tricky thing to interpret too. In the Rebels Season 3 finale:

    When Kanan starts trying to convince Bendu, a powerful entity who claims to be "the one in the middle" compared to the Jedi and the Sith, to aid the Rebels and fight the Empire, accusing him of being cowardly when he won't, Bendu snaps back "Perhaps it is the will of the Force that the Jedi be destroyed - and I serve the will of the Force."