CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

darth-sinister

Top 1 - creepy and too similar to what we already have
Middle - Not bad...
Bottom - "Look at me I'm a force ghost!" Don't think that one would work haha

 

I don't want to quote and use all these images again and since the first 3 clearly are of the same emotional state compared to this last one I think the comparison just between these two works very well. These are two distinctly different Anakin's one is an angry and malevolent Vader while the other is a content and obviously happy Anakin.

Might as well say SS is creepy and leering because it makes as much sense. Though I get it that for some people HC's face is always creepy and leering which I really don't see at all. What he does have is a very distinctive facial and body movement he created with the role that in part comes from his own as well as the vocal inflections he chose.

If he is for you then fine. I think he is great in Star Wars. As for other movies I really haven't looked into it enough. He's more that fine in anything else I have seen him in.

 

Doesn't change the fact that the visual image of spirit Anakin now is that of a guy who murdered children, choked his pregnant wife & betrayed his best friend & the Jedi Order. The image of SS is only seen having been unmasked, already having rejected the persona of Darth Vader, killed the Emperor, & sacrificed himself to save his son. The original version is far stronger than the Special Edition version. Nothing wrong with having special/alternate edition versions of movies though, I guess. Just hope they hurry up & release the originals in an updated format.

 

Keep it Sebastian Shaw until Luke turns away and Anakin morphs into Hayden. If need be.

 

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What next? Alec Guinness morphs into Ewan MacGregor? Puppet Yoda morphs into CGI Yoda? Where does it end? The original was a beautiful, moving moment. Leave it alone.

 

And Sebastian Shaw Anakin is the result of 2 decades of villainy so what's your point? Maybe he chose that form because he thinks he was generally a better person as Hayden Anakin. I think we're way overanalizing this scene. GL just wanted to link the two trilogies together and yeah I can understand why people are disappointed that it's no longer Sebastian Shaw, at least he didn't do it out of disrespect.

And Shaw was shot exactly the same way Hayden was.

 

Exactly. So yet another point in favor of that image of Anakin being used never mind any of the other reasons. From a pure visual storytelling point of view this lets us know that the good in Anakin we knew was there has survived and now flourishes.

Except it's not the image of that SS Anakin but another version.

The HC Anakin is visually Anakin while the SS Anakin is visually still linked to the result of the evil of Vader.

So once again from a visual standpoint no one seems to be against the spirit form being a healed and renewed form. The argument is about either being fully healed and free of Vader completely or only being partially healed and still have the weight of Vader pressing on his spirit.

What seems to be forgotten here is that is essence the face behind the mask as seen in ROTJ is the physical face Vader had in ANH and TESB. The physical as such doesn't matter since it was the spirit of Anakin inside that made the difference.

Then of course in terms of production SS face is supposed to be a 20+ year older face which looks even more age and is deformed much like Sidious' face has been transformed.

For R1 they used HC's Anakin face on the unmasked Vader and again for Rebels when Vader was partially unmasked but much like we accept that EM and AG are the same character at different ages the same applies to HC and SS.

The actual Anakin is stronger as that is the real story that Lucas is telling.

Maybe they will release those alternate versions one day but that is all they ever will be.

No because Lucas did do that so no one else is going to change it. The story point is very clear in regards to this as Obi-Wan and Yoda's physical forms were taken into the Force with them while Anakin's Vader physical form was left behind.

 

This does not seem very logical to me. The face of Hayden Christensen is the only face linked with the horror of Darth Vader. We never saw Vader's face again after the mask went over Hayden's face. When the mask finally came off, Vader was already redeemed, so Sebastian Shaw's face is indelibly linked with the redemption of Darth Vader, not the horror forever linked with Hayden's face. So, Sebastian Shaw's face makes far more sense to me in these terms.

Not really, the original versions will forever be the original versions, and will allways be considered historically the most relevant.

 

Boba Fett crawls out of the Sarlacc alive as the maori kid from AOTC of course...

 

Why HC makes no sense to me is that all the other Ghosts are reprentations of the Jedi at the age they died. It's not a big issue, but Shaw adds something while HC takes something away.

Shaw smiling, without the scarred 'cone head' actually adds to the concept he had been cleaned up and renewed.

All HC adds is a prequel call back which is fine, but it adds nothing to the lore of SW.

 

Well there's still time, GL did the 1997 SE's for the 20th anniversary of the first film in the Original Trilogy, maybe he should do Prequel Trilogy Special Editions in 2019 and replace Hayden with a new CGI character? That'd be great! Maybe put Jar Jar into more scenes in AOTC as well - I like Jar Jar, I actually don't understand why there's so much hate for a character obviously intended to entertain children.

 

Good one. The original versions, which are iconic movies are the "alternate" versions. I don't think so. They are simply the original films. Nothing wrong with also having Special Editions. Once the originals are re-released & sit alongside the SE's I think the latter will stand as an interesting supplementary edition of these movies. If you feel like seeing a cartoon Jabba & animated creatures all over the screen in ANH you can throw on that 'Special' version. If you want the original experience, that will be an option too.

My point was exactly how I described, so I guess I'll just repeat myself. In terms of visual audience association, the image of HC/Anakin was last associated with child murder & betrayal including choking out his defenseless pregnant wife. In fact that Anakin wasn't Anakin at all - he was Darth Vader. Vader only ever appeared in two forms: as HC & in the suit. What's more he committed his most awful & violent deeds on screen as the former. SS/Anakin on the other hand was only ever revealed on screen after he'd already turned to the good side. Having rid the galaxy of the Emperor & saved his son's life. With SS's spirit, as it appeared for 20 years & still stands in the original version of the film, there's no mistaking that we're seeing a guy who has now turned towards the light. That's the brilliance of the depiction in the OT. We only ever see Vader in his fearsome black suit...until he's (clearly) unmasked which only takes place when he's Anakin Skywalker again. Then the suit is burned & destroyed leaving behind the spiritual version of Anakin who sacrificed himself for the love of his son. It's perfect. In the Special Edition version, after watching the Saga in order we get to the end of RotJ & out of nowhere Anakin reverts back to creepy
leering HC/Anakin/Vader. Who we last saw as an insane murderous psycho. There's no scene in between that humanises him as he appears in that visual form. It's an absolutely bat-**** crazy change to the movie.

If that weren't bad enough, consider this. It's established that when Jedi become spirits they take with them their personality & memories from the time that they die. That's how they can coherently commune with the people they knew. They can recount facts & stories & relay information. As we saw ghost Ben Kenobi do with Luke. So what happens with ghost Anakin? You's assume the same would have to be true. If he spoke with Luke after RotJ they probably talk about his whole life, the mistakes he made, their history over the past few years. His memories & personality aren't reset to when he was 20 years old, are they? If so he & Luke won't have much to talk about.
Luke: "Father, what was it like fighting against that inner conflict after our encounter on Bespin?".
Anakin: "I have no memory of that, but I can tell you all about podracing or dating your mother!".

No, of course he'd have old Anakin's memories. So you have this weird situation where a 45 year old personality is wedged into the spiritual "body" of his 20 year old self. Which raises the question, what's the point in having a 20 year old spirit-body if the important parts: the memory & personality are that of your older self? Seems like a superficial pointless change. Maybe there is vanity in the afterlife. Now, imagine the ghost-HC version of Anakin chatting with Luke about that confrontation on Bespin. His fight with Ben Kenobi. Or when he grabbed Palpatine & threw him to his death. What a bizarre visual image that conversation is. Especially as Luke becomes an old man, as we see now in the ST. You'd have a scenario where a 60 year old Luke is speaking with his young fresh 20 year old looking ghost father about the time his 40 year old self was fighting against 20 year old Luke

 

I really had no problem with it. In fact I actually like it Lucas did that. Anakin in white and brown Jedi robes smiling at Luke to me at least was one of the best ending scenes in the movies.

 

Why was he in those robes again? Why not the robes he actually wore as a Jedi? Maybe Lucas was concerned that he already looked like Vader, given he was played by HC. Using the dark robes Anakin wore when he committed his atrocities was I suppose too much even for Lucas.

 

Except that in his last moments, when he renounced the Dark Side and returned to the light, he wasn't Vader at all. He was always Anakin Skywalker, but that persona was buried deep down within the Vader character whilst he was consumed by the Dark Side. Anakin's personality resurfaced at the end of Return of the Jedi and he died as a Jedi. Not as a Sith, not as the tomb of Vader, not anything of Vader. He defeated Vader, and died as Anakin Skywalker. Weakened by Luke, he died from his injuries when the Emperor's lightning covered him.

I think you are in a minority of one with this one.

 

The spiritual symbolism of white being pure and good?

 

I...guess

 

At all? Clearly he was still in the Darth Vader body of Anakin's that was transformed by the Dark Side. It's not like there was some instant healing and his body transformed into what it would have been had he made the other choice.

In terms of the story itself Anakin was consumed by the Dark Side and became Darth Vader. There is still good in him that Luke brings back.

He was not "always" Anakin Skywalker the good man but Darth Vader. Vader is the evil of Anakin and he is not a good man.

Which is the point. He left his Vader self behind. The Sith are all about the physical. His Jedi spirit and the good man he was joined the Force. Not Vader.

Not sure what you are referring to.

Erm... So for SS image as a Force ghost.

Why was he in those robes again? Why not the Vader armor that by the logic being used he actually wore as a Jedi? Maybe Lucas was concerned that he already looked like Vader, given he was played by SS. Using the Vader robes Anakin wore when he committed his atrocities was I suppose too much even for Lucas?

The story point is how is it possibly OK for the SS image to have Jedi robes similar to Obi-Wan and Yoda and the HC one not?

 

Anakin Skywalker wasn't in somebody else's body, it was his body. He had simply assumed a Sith name given to him when he became consumed by the Dark Side of the Force. When he expunged the Darth Vader persona for good, he was simply as he always was, i.e. Anakin Skywalker, albeit seriously injured. It was not Anakin's body that the Dark Side changed, it was his character. He was in full evil mode before his duel with Obi-Wan. His physical change came about because of his injuries.

He did not change bodies into somebody else when he "became" Darth Vader. Anakin simply went by his newly allocated Sith moniker and acted in an evil manner as he had turned. He did not literally become another person in a different body, but his nature, personality and character had changed.

Where have you got this notion from? The Sith are all about the physical? He expunged his Vader persona. He wasn't "Anakin in Vader's body", it was the other way around. The Dark Side had simply consumed Anakin, and Anakin's true nature eventually overcame and defeated it. Therefore what was lay on that shuttle ramp and died was Anakin Skywalker. This idea that what remained then was Darth Vader's body is not how I see it.

The original concept was simple and elegant. I think you are coming up with convoluted justifications for the change which don't particularly resonate with many people.

 

The point is one of continuity. There were no issues with the SS scene for 20 years, since we assumed they were his Jedi robes from back when he was a good guy. Lucas didn't bother with that continuity of appearance when he made the PT. He opted for "cooler" looking darker robes. So when he made the change to ghost-HC why didn't he also change the robes to match that version of Anakin? Quite strange that while he was doing his CGI trickery he didn't also match up Anakin's clothing.

Of more importance can you answer this question pls. Does ghost-Anakin, even while appearing physically as HC still retain the memories & personality of 45 year old Anakin? Does he continue on from his moment of death just as ghost Obi-Wan appeared to? Or has his personality & memories been reset to when he was a 20-something year old Jedi? This is quite important in terms of any communication he has with Luke or Leia.

 

People also assumed that all Jedi went into the Force and became spirits. That was incorrect. People assumed all sorts of things that turned out not to be the case. Obi-Wan is not wearing the robes he had as a Jedi 20+ years earlier either. I can't think off-hand of anyone who wore longer robes like Obi-Wan does in the OT.

Actually he did. All he did was adjust things like making the robe section shorter which already was seen in ROTJ with Luke. He was thinking of going with a quite different look at one point.

There are various looks for the Jedi.

Two things come to mind immediately. 1) He wanted to show the trio were in a uniform look (especially Anakin and Obi-Wan) 2) from an image perspective the contrast between the dark cloaks and the robes works better for the ghosts than dark and dark.

From a further story perspective he was actually saved from going into the Force by Obi-Wan and Yoda. He didn't actually "bring" his clothes with him like they did.

Of course we can get into all kinds of silliness about why they have clothes at all and why aren't they naked and the like but that just gets into ridiculousness.

He doesn't appear physically though. That appearance is spiritual. The SS image is the one that is tied to the last physical aspect.

We can't say for sure can we? We presume that he does retain the memory that he had as Vader but not the personality of Vader because that is a different aspect of himself.

Anakin Skywalker became someone else. He became Darth Vader who did things that Anakin the Jedi wouldn't have. That is the point being made. Anakin was gone. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Sidious thought this. Luke didn't. When Sidious was fully revealed we saw what happened to his physical form and how it decayed. That was starting to happen to Anakin when he became Vader. The injuries that were burned into him by his choices then became part of him. His Sith self was all about the physical continuation no matter what all the way to being more machine than man.

Yet his body did change. Star Wars is a story that makes huge mythological points where there is the Force and the Dark Side. Choosing the path you go down to determine your destiny. The Sith have nothing but the physical world. There is no spiritual world to live in.

Star Wars.

Yet that is how the story plays out as Vader's body was not taken into the Force.

Which hasn't changed. Everything is exactly the same save for Anakin's spirit now looking like Anakin as opposed to Anakin in Vader's Dark Side consumed body. The Dark Side consumed his body and destroyed it. It almost consumed his spirit as well but there was a sliver of good left that Luke was able to call on and responded.

From my point of view it's the same thing. Coming up with convoluted reasons why Anakin's spirit should not look like Anakin actually did but like Anakin as Vader except not because he's healed, the clothes are different and somehow his being decades too old to be Anakin is perfectly fine.

 

It wasn't about Anakin looking cooler, but showing that he was evolving into Vader. Anakin's Jedi robes were leather like Vader's Sith robes and his clothing darkens just as Luke's darkened in the OT. It was about showing his progress from good to evil. The reason it's the Jedi robes of Obi-wan still is to show how much he had changed and was now more like Obi-wan.

Yes, he would. If we see Anakin in TLJ or Episode IX, he'll have all of the same memories from ROTJ and will be more Jedi like than he was from before he fell.

 

But that is not true at all. Sebastian Shaw's ghost image looked no more like Vader's Dark Side Consumed Body than Hayden Christensen's image did. And the person who died was NOT Vader, as Anakin had returned to the good side at the point of his death, injured or not.

 

They weren't uniform anyway. Yoda's outfit looks quite different:


So why isn't he wearing his own Jedi robes? Was Anakin reverting back to when he was "good" or not? If so what's wrong with the robes he wore when he was supposedly good?

So...to show he's now good he slips into Obi-Wan's robes in the afterlife? Really?

Personally I don't like it when people take this so literally. It implies that Anakin wasn't at all in control & so almost wasn't responsible. IMO he was always Anakin. He just turned evil & lost his way. That happens. What if Palpatine had not given him the title of DV. If he'd continued to be known as Anakin. Would he still be someone else? Or if he hadn't gone into the black suit. When Dooku turned bad & did evil stuff he was still Dooku. He wasn't "Darth Tyrannus" some other evil person.

Of course he does. Otherwise they're not attaining spiritual "immortality" if they don't continue their journey. The whole point was that Anakin rejected the persona of Vader. Before he died he was that good person again - he was Anakin. That's how he was able to become a Force ghost. So we agree that Anakin's memories & personality, from the time he turned back & had that emotional conversation with his son prior to death is what passed into the afterlife. So that raises a big question. Firstly, this is GL's explanation about all this from the dvd commentary:

"As we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the force, he is able to retain his original identity…but it was his identity as he was -- when he died as Anakin Skywalker."

Okay, but what does "identity" mean? I would ask Lucas the question of which personality & memory resides within spirit Anakin. I feel sure the answer has to be as we described above. It would be mental if Anakin has "spiritual amnesia" about the past 25 years. If he's been reset back to PT Anakin. If he can't discuss his failures & recent past with his two children & give them advice about his struggles with the Dark Side then communing with them will be absurd. So, if I had the chance I'd say this to Lucas: "If spirit-Anakin's personality, emotions & memories are that of the good 45 year old Anakin, who just saved his son's life & died a good person, aren't they the important aspects that form someone's identity? Aren't they what make a person who they are? Whereas physical appearance is just an outer layer. Merely a superficial aesthetic. What is the point Lucas of having some kind of weird ethereal Frankenstein situation where you wedge someone's personality from when they're 45 into their 20 year old spiritual body?? Further, if as you say Anakin "died" back when he was young, wasn't he "reborn" again near the end of RotJ? Was Luke talking to his father Anakin Skywalker or wasn't he? I thought that was the whole point of the scene. Also the subtext behind the line "Let me look on you with my own eyes". He was back to his good self, the spell of the Dark Side having been broken. Lucas, this whole change makes no damned sense!".