Saga Does Everyone Become A Force Ghost?

I think it was a visual representation of him coming back as who he used to be. He's finally making peace with that part of himself after spending 2 decades hating himself for what he did and his supposed weaknesses. If he did survive, I really doubt the galaxy as a whole and Leia would have forgiven him and I think they would have punished him and he would agree with whatever they decide. The Force seems to have forgiven Anakin by granting him this gift thanks to his sacrifice.

 

The legal system cannot judge Vader since he dies. But the ones who do judge him are the Jedi and they're the reason that he was able to die as a good man, and become a Force ghost. They saw that he was guilty of his crimes, but forgave him anyway and extended compassion towards him. And as to Lucas, as noted earlier, he was the one who pointed out that most religions teaches that those who repent are rewarded.

Ironically, Kazanjian had changed his mind about this being such a good idea. “I’d started thinking about it and I said to George, ‘Why? This guy—he’s like Hitler. He’s killed. He’s done all of these terrible things and now we’re saying he’s equal with Yoda and Obi-Wan, as if he’s gone to heaven or whatever.’ And George pointed at me, he was real close, and he says, ‘Isn’t that what your religion is all about?’ And, boy, that was like being slapped on the side of the face, because, yes, it is what my religion is all about, and obviously his, but I hadn’t thought it through.”

--The Making of Return Of The Jedi, 2013.

And Lucas himself did say that the Force was similar to what people refer to as God. So there is an earthly judgment and a higher judgment.

 

I'm fine with Vader's redemption in ROTJ.

Well, being sort of an atheist myself, I believe the higher judgement to be a human construct, and thus the earthly and higher judgement to be two faces of the same human concept of judgement. I do not separate the two. I like the idea of the Force and the metaphysical, but ultimately they are the reflection of the fantasies and values of it's human creator. Like I said before, I can get on board with the idea of ROTJ Anakin's sacrifice, and repentance, thus leading to his redemption as he joins the Force. However, I reject the idea that pre-Vader Anakin, as presented in AOTC & ROTS is a representation of the good man Anakin Skywalker, and consequently the representation of Anakin in spirit form.

 

Padme believed there was still good in him even despite everything he did to her. I don't think she would have married an evil person. she thought she could help him get better and for a time it did work until he had visions of her dying at least.

 

I'm not saying pre-Vader Anakin is evil. There's good in him AND evil, but he's no role model; he's not good.

 

Why would he want to be like his RotS self? The guy who murdered an unarmed injured prisoner. Who killed women & children a year or two earlier. Who betrayed the galaxy & became a a Sith. Maybe Lucas should've inserted Jake Lloyd into the scene.

Where was that shown in the movie? I only saw her being held captive.

What would infants be armed with? That would pose any risk to Anakin to the extent that self-defense could be considered? Howe about the baby we see?

You're half right. He didn't have the time & patience during the period where he was usurping the Republic. Where he was trying to topple the Jedi & create his Empire. That's why he took the short-cut of resorting to converting Jedi rather than training a true Sith from the beginning. So his plans would not be set back. Once his Empire is created & he becomes Emperor it's a different story. If a child with the potential of baby Luke fell int his grasp, of course he'd make the time to train him in secret. He would have the best of both worlds. Vader as his henchman & an uninjured, true Sith conditioned from birth. To one day replace Vader. You see Palpatine doesn't just want to rule over his lifetime & that's it. He wants to create a Sith dynasty that will last centuries. Due to unforeseen circumstances, Vader is not the apprentice he hoped he'd be. As Lucas explains:

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

-George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

-George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

No, having a true Sith like Maul is always the preferred option. However he needed to improvise & cut corners after Maul was killed. Lucas has said that too. Sidious' plan worked. Dooku & Vader were instrumental in his rise to ultimate power. Now, as the leader of an Empire he can look longer term. The only way the Sith can endure is for them to find new blood, replace the weaker of the two & continue to evolve. The newborn child of the Chosen One would've been very tempting to Palpatine. Of course he would've considered his potential as a longer term Sith apprentice. Esp taking into account GL's observations above. Vader was not the future of the Sith. Someone else had to be, or they would die out. If your theory is that Palps would not even entertain this idea - fine. It's been noted. We agree to disagree.

 

And feelings of true guilt over a committed atrocity is a greater punishment than anything the legal system can possibly dish out. If you're repentant, that means you're being severely punished and you're deterred from re-offending. Judicial solutions are obviously redundant at that point. The only reason that's not how the legal system operates is because it's impossible to look into another's soul, and because the system is largely based on sating society's lust for vengeance against an offender.

I continue to believe you don't understand what Star Wars is dealing with because I believe Lucas's opinion (and my opinion) is right and yours is wrong. That's how opinions work. It's not arrogance to think that you're right and someone else is wrong.

Good thing the image of Anakin in Episode VI is one who's conquered his demons once and for all. An image of an Anakin whom we intimately recognize but who is now at peace instead of struggling with inner turmoil.

 

Why does he still have the scar?

 

That's precisely the issue here. Anakin did re-offend. His hate filled rant in AOTC largely underwrites the idea, that he feels the Tuskens got what they deserved, which is at odds with feelings of true guilt. He then murders Count Dooku in an act of revenge.

Anakin Skywalker: "I shouldn't have done that. It's not the Jedi way."
Supreme Chancellor: [stands up, rubbing his wrists] "It is only natural. He cut off your arm, and you wanted revenge. It wasn't the first time, Anakin. Remember what you told me about your mother and the Sand People."

Anakin seems to understand a good Jedi would not have done what he did, but that's on an intellectual level. On an emotional level he still can't control his feelings of revenge, and he feels Dooku like the Tuskens got what he deserved, which again is at odds with true feelings of guilt. If he was truly repentant of his actions, he would know AND feel what he's doing is wrong.

I disagree, it's arrogance to state, that because you disagree with my opinion, my opinion must be based on a lack of understanding. That's NOT how opinions are supposed to work. The way it would ideally work is, that I respect your opinion, and you respect mine, and we agree to disagree, but it doesn't appear to be, how it works for you. Your position (at least in this instance) is, that if I understood what Star Wars is dealing with, I would agree with you. In other words if I were smart enough, I would see it your way. You don't seem to want to fathom, that I understand Lucas' intentions with the saga just fine, I just don't agree with every aspect of his vision. You see, understand, AND disagree. These things are not mutually exclusive.

 

We can really only guess since Lucas knows the answer and hasn't told us "directly" but that is nothing new.

As I said on the other thread in the 13 years since 2004 when it debuted I never noticed the scar and until a few weeks ago never heard anyone make mention of it

It's like asking why the SS Anakin is so old even though Anakin was never that age. He was much younger than Obi-Wan.

The most obvious inference to draw as I have said before is that the scar itself is not a wound that was inflicted by the Dark Side. The point was in any version Anakin's wounds were "healed". Not that they were actually healed but his spirit was and this was reflected in the image he projected to Luke.

Clearly Anakin's physical form is gone and was burned up. Unlike Obi-Wan or Yoda it did not vanish into the Force and somehow become the template for their spiritual appearance.

His right arm came off due to Dooku (and his less than Jedi approach to Dooku due to his impatience) then all this other injuries were suffered through his embrace of the Dark Side. His scar is the only overt physical mark that he received in a heroic fashion.

The point being that the fact is that he does have that scar while all the others are gone. It's always a bit of an odd one to me because for whatever reason some people accept that the SS version has a right arm and is old but then ask why the HC version would have a right arm, be young and have a scar. Like somehow if he had the right arm, was young and no scar then they would be perfectly fine with it. I very much doubt it.

Then were exactly did he get those spirit clothes? People ask "How come the HC version isn't wearing his robes from ROTS?" Yet how many ask "How come the SS versions isn't wearing the same kind of Jedi outfit that Luke was wearing?" Talking of story intent that is exactly what Luke was wearing. The more cut militaristic clothes/uniforms that Jedi were supposed to have before Lucas remodeled them for the prequels to take elements of both Luke in ROTJ and Obi-Wan from ANH.

 

Well, he doesn't have a choice in the matter. But also, do you think that he cares about distinguishing physical appearance with action past and current actions? Do you think he's standing there thinking, "Maybe I would look more noble and redeemed as an old man as opposed to being my twenty year old self?" That's only something the audience is caring about, not the character.

Spoiler tag for size.

Spoiler

So, in your estimation, they held her for a month without inflicting torture on her. Where did those scars come from? Why is she dying?

I wasn't talking about the babies. I'm talking about the women and some of the children who were old enough to carry a weapon. And let's not forget, the Jedi give Lightsabers to five year olds.

I know what Lucas said. But as noted, he doesn't have the time or patience to do it again. He's still a busy guy after ROTS. And he only decides that he wants to replace Vader when Vader suggests turning Luke, and not before then.

There's no such thing as true Sith, half Sith, quarter pounder Sith. You're either a Sith or not. When you turn to the dark side doesn't matter. So long as you do. So, either Obi-wan is wrong in thinking that Luke and Leia would be a threat because of their existence, or you're wrong in thinking that child murdering wasn't part of the OT.

Chicks dig scars.

 

How do you know he has an answer? Couldn't it simply be a production error?

No it's not. SS Anakin looks exactly as Lucas wanted him to. He chose the actor out of thousands of alternatives. Plenty of people look younger or older than they actually are. This is not an error in any shape or form.

The DS inflicts "wounds" like weathered features, yellow demonic eyes etc. It doesn't lop off arms or inflict scars on people's faces. The scar was caused by a person wielding a weapon. Just like the severed arm. Anakin had major wouds inflicted by Sith & by Jedi, before he turned to the DS & after. To say they were all caused "by the DS"...apart from one scar is just being a defensive apologist. Acknowledging a production goof here or there is not saying Lucas is a bad person.

He lost his arm while trying to save his friend Obi-Wan from a Sith Lord. Quite heroic I would say. This bit of handwaving doesn't hold up. Clearly the scar is another blunder. Like Padme knowing about "that hangar" & so many others. Nothing more to it than that.

So you want me to guess, just like you? Ok. I'd guess that she was wounded during her capture, & possibly during subsequent escape attempts. Given she's bound & there are guards posted outside her tent it's clear that she's a prisoner. She's dying due to shock, &/or her injuries sustained during said incidents, &/or or bcs the Tuskens are ignorant as to the life-sustaining needs of human prisoners. Or, maybe she's dying due to that common affliction in a GFFA: losing the will to live. A lot of that going around.

If some of the 5 year old Sandchildren were holding a stick that hardly gives a lightsaber wielding Jedi an excuse by way of self-defense. It's a pointless thing to even mention. There's "armed & dangerous" & then there's a child with a stick.

Cool theory. Another option is that he sits atop his Empire & has underlings including Moffs & bureaucrats run things. Giving him plenty of time to plan a Sith dynasty that will endure for centuries. The child of the Chosen One is no ordinary kid, like those at the Jedi temple etc. It may be an opportunity too good to pass up. A short time later we see he & Vader use Force sensitive agents like Inquisitors. Seems very far-fetched to me that Sidious would simply kill a baby Luke & not exploit him for the future of the Sith. If you disagree, that's fine. You seem to have a hard time disagreeing.

Then why did Lucas make the distinction? He said that ideally a Sith should be like Sidious or Maul. True believers their whole lives. Maul's death made Sidious take short-cuts & begin converting adult Jedi. Of course there's a difference. Let's recall that doing this with Anakin ultimately leads to his undoing in RotJ. If Anakin had been raised as a Sith from childhood, that would not have happened.

He's right, but he also doesn't know the full extent of Sidious' plans & motivations. How could he? Baby Luke & Leia could be a huge threat to Palpatine if they're allowed to be raised by his enemies. They are no threat, in fact they're potentially a priceless asset if he gets hold of them as babies & corrupts them from birth. If he's able to do that pls explain how they would be a threat to him?
As Obi-Wan indicates, Sidious would want to neutralize the threat that the baby twins represent. One way is to kill them, which ends the threat but provides no gain. The other way is to take them, which also ends the threat but provides a HUGE future gain. IMO someone as shrewd & who plays the long-game as well as Sidious would go with option B. Just killing them if he has the opportunity to take them for himself would be a ridiculous waste of a priceless resource. Particularly given his disappointment with what happened to Anakin, as Lucas has said countless times. A baby Luke allows Sidious to have Anakin, albeit severely injured & diminished, & also a "baby Anakin" to mold as he sees fit. The perfect scenario.

A far more sensible explanation than QRB's, I'll give you that.

 

That was what he looked like before he metaphorically lost his humanity and became more machine than man. It was when he still had people who loved him and he loved them back.

 

Hold on, was the key event turning to the DS & taking the persona of Darth Vader or was it getting injured & wearing the suit? Anakin was Vader before the injuries. What if he'd never been injured yet the story played out the same. He saves Luke as an un-injured late 40's DV then dies. How would his ghost appear then? Also, when communing with Luke post RotJ, what personality & memory does ghost Anakin have? That of RotS Anakin or SS Anakin who had that conversation with Luke?

 

The force consciously chooses to illustrate metaphors?

 

I'll say both because by turning to the darkside, he basically made a deal with the devil in order to get more powerful to save a loved one. The suit is a consequence of that deal, which is why I think it is more representative of the Vader persona than before he got his injuries. It was when he wanted to erase any reminder of the man Anakin Skywalker used to be (living or not) because there was no one else Vader hated more than he hated himself, not even Obi-Wan. That's why I think enumerating all of his crimes before he even fell to the darkside is missing the point because the reason of the change is internal, that means he finally made peace with the man he used to be, flaws and all. He cant atone for what he did for obvious reasons (i.e. he's dead). By becoming a Force Ghost Anakin retained his identity, which means he still has all of his memories intact just like Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Maybe even more now since he became one with the Force. We don't know what his personality would be like now since he hasn't talked yet but I think he would be more mature considering his experience. I think it's also good to remember that being a Force ghost doesn't mean they are flawless, or that they can't be wrong.

 

That actually illustrates your desire to have an authentic, mature discussion today.

It wasn't me that invoked metaphors in order to explain the force allowing Anakin that appearance. So take it up with the person who has neglected to explain how and why the force is concerned with metaphors.

Anakin looking the way he did in ROTS isn't a metaphor for anything by the way. It is actually Anakin, actually looking the way he did before he needed prosthetic replacement for his limbs, but not before he had surrendered his humanity. If Anakin had chosen to become a suited ogre in order to save Padme, then the transition might possibly qualify as a metaphor. But we know that isn't what happened.

The last time that Anakin had people around him he loved and who loved him, he did not look the way he did in ROTS. The last time we saw him in that appearance, he was murdering unarmed prisoners, choosing to murder lots of kids, choosing to strangle the wife he was desperate not to lose and he was trying to kill his lifelong mentor. That is what defines Anakin in that guise. In case you missed the point of ROTS.

 

It represents the good inside him which Padme and Luke sensed and persisted for all these years beneath the darkness.

He didn't? I guess we're going to ignore the first half of RotS where we had Obi-Wan and Anakin banters like brothers, and having moments with Padme just before he got visions of her dying in childbirth.

 

Fi

First scene of ROTS, to be precise. And call me a miser, but the supposed banter between him and Obi-Wan and then with his illicit wife is a momentary drop in the ocean of Anakin's otherwise questionable behaviour and personality he displays for the overwhelming majority of the movie.

 

The same applies for the men and women who use Gaderffii sticks against a Jedi with a Lightsaber, since it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Useless.

The Inquisitors were told to kill or convert to Stormtroopers, the children of the Force. i.e., those who have the Force, but no Jedi to train them. And that was before the Sith found out that there were a few Jedi left alive out there to train them. That's why the Jedi Holocron was prized as it contained the database of all identified children. So, yes, the Sith were out to kill any. Even if it meant the offspring of the Chosen One. This isn't about disagreeing, this is about what is stated in ROTJ.

Lucas made the point because it is ultimately training a Jedi turned Sith that destroys the Sith Order.

Vader would use them against him.

As I said, he has no desire to train them or let them be trained by Vader. He only considers it because he can sense Luke growing powerful, though he has no clue that Yoda is training him. So this is also another fear, that Luke has found a way to become a threat now. Just as it was for the children of the Force.

 

I've been reading in this thread how it's difficult to accept Ani as a Force ghost because what he did was unforgivable. I've thought it over and I figure...that's correct. There's no way to forgive the crimes he committed. And that's precisely the point.

(I'm noting, though, that Ani's actions in the Tusken camp are more an act of manslaughter, rather than premeditated murder, given his anguished, angry state of mind. It was very much like Wyatt Earp's "Call down the thunder" speech in "Tombstone". Ani just killed anybody who was a Tusken, no questions asked, in one burst of violence. Anyway...)

Luke probably didn't know everything Ani/Vader had done, but he did have reasons to retaliate on a personal level. But, when the time comes, Luke puts aside his need for revenge and forgives his father. Initially, it's because of familial love and the knowledge that there was still good in him, buried under Dark Side influences. Finally, though, it's because Luke realizes just how easy it is to succumb to the Dark Side, and that he is in no way fit to be Ani/Vader's moral superior. So, he puts it all aside. It's very much like the Christian principle of Divine forgiveness, not in response to action but as an act of grace, defined as "unmerited favor".
And, though we'd seen Ani/Vader seem unsure of his goals before this, this is what really sets him in motion to reject the Dark Side. He finally starts to listen again to the good he'd put aside for so long, and he starts to realize that maybe Kenobi and Yoda were wrong. Maybe it was possible to put the Dark Side away and reform. So, he goes to his son's defense, knowing that it'd cost him his life. And he does, indeed, die, repenting his crimes. He accepts Luke's forgiveness and, if we accept Qui-Gon's attitude of the Force being something of a being with a "will", perhaps the Force forgives him as well. And we can see that Kenobi and Yoda forgive him, too, and welcome his presence.

Now, I'm not saying everyone would forgive Ani. In the old EU, it takes Leia years to come to terms with the true situation. (See Tatooine Ghost.) And a great many others would, no doubt, never give up their hatred of Vader. And, had he lived, he'd be facing some major civil retribution for his actions. But that's not the point. At that moment, it all came down to Luke and what he'd do or not do. He chose to forgive, and Ani is brought back.

Once again, I acknowledge that I'm sentimental about this, and I want Ani to end up in Light Side Heaven, reunited with his friends and family. And, for good representation of much of this, I recommend James Kahn's excellent ROTJ novelization.

 

Which is precisely the point. He cannot make up for his crimes and he cannot get the galaxy to forgive him. Only the Jedi can grant forgiveness and do so by showing him compassion. Luke for managing to get through to him and Yoda and Obi-wan by helping him to retain his identity. That's why after criminals are executed, nothing changes for the families of the victims because whatever feelings existed before, still exist. Sometimes, people can forgive and not hold grudges. But it is very rare. The true test is to let go of any hate in your heart, as much as it is for the perpetrator to repent for their crimes.

 

No, adult Tuskens in numbers with gaffi sticks are a threat. Children with sticks are not. Particularly not small infants & babies

All ghost Ben said in RotJ was that Anakin's children would be a threat to Palpatine &/or Vader. He made no mention of how Palpatine would deal with that threat. Under various different possible circumstances & scenarios. You're trying to take one vague line written in the early 80's & apply to it to the entire Saga. Of course Palpatine might consider using a baby Luke as a future weapon of the Sith. In doing so he would no longer be a threat to him. Which satisfies Obi-Wan's dialogue from RotJ. It's also completely understandable as a strategic long-term decision from Palps' pov. It's a possibility. No getting around that. Your personal opinion is that he'd kill baby Luke, even if he had the opportunity to take him for his own purposes. No problem, that's been noted. No point in re-stating it. I haven't argued that your theory is unfounded & not also possible.

 

There is a "degree of murder" between "premeditated" (1st degree) and voluntary manslaughter - second degree murder.

However, at least in the case of Tusken adults, Anakin's state of mind may qualify as "diminished capacity" - reducing it from second degree murder to voluntary manslaughter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_responsibility

The question is, whether it's applicable to Anakin's killing of Tusken children or not.