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PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by andresfelix, Aug 7, 2014.

  1. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Fair enough. But then again Anakin only has the Jedi standards to base his judgments on. How much does he or the Jedi really know about Tusken biology? Those guys practically walk around like mummies, never once do we see any part of their bodies. So all we have is height to say what is male/female or child/adult. I'd say that's pretty vague.
    It's not that I want to defend Anakin at all costs! But since defending him is the topic of this thread I might as well throw in a few thoughts as well. Let's not forget we are only talking about a movie, not real life. So there is no harm in playing "devil's advocate" a little. I mean we shouldn't take comments in a fan forum TOO seriously.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    But why add rape if there is no indication of it?
    Isn't what happened bad enough?
    Isn't kidnap, beating and murder more than enough, you must add rape as well?

    And why would Lucas, who is about tolerance, be interested in making wholly evil species, whom can all be wiped out without any shame or remorse? Even the children of such races are fair game because they are, you know evil and can never be anything but evil and so killing them is totally ok.

    And again, Lucas NEVER said anything about rape.

    I really doubt that this is what Lucas intended and I think he would not approve of the "guilt by association" you are using. Or the "We only see them do bad stuff so they must all be evil and do not have the capacity for good."
    Take Vader, one of the most evil characters in the OT and yet he gets redeemed.
    So Lucas is very much about not giving up on people, that even the very worst of people can have a spark of good left in them.
    And yet he totally writes the Sand People off as nothing but evil, cruel and lacking the capacity for good?

    Sorry, don't agree.

    And lets' assume that a legal system DID exist on Tatooine. That there were law enforcers and the like.
    But the kidnap and death of Shmi happened the same way and Anakin found her the same way.
    Do you think Anakin would have reacted differently?
    That he wouldn't have gone kill-crazy and instead just left after calling the "cops"?

    I doubt it very much because again, justice wasn't on Anakin's mind, it was vengeance.
    And vengeance is "A person from group A hurt me and so I hurt any person from group A, regardless if they had anything to do with this or not."
    Anakin killed any and all he came across, if they were guilty or innocent didn't matter at that time.

    And since Anakin wiped out the ENTIRE camp, down to the smallest child, my impression is that he wanted to hurt the Sand People as much as possible.
    Killing every last one would include a methodical search of each and every hut and chasing after those that tried to run away.
    So what he wanted was to kill as many as he could and he only stopped when there was no one left to kill.

    Given the very limited amounts of water that exists on Tatooine and that Sand People don't have advanced tech, they must rely on natural sources of water. And too many camps around one such source would lead to it getting depleted.
    So Sand People would likely be spread out and be where some source of water is.
    And unlike Earth, there is no huge ocean that makes travel harder.
    And even if we limit ourselves to the North American continent, the distances are still very considerable.
    Say the nearest camp is three days journey away. That is still quite long. And I think Anakin did calm down after a while and wasn't kill-crazy anymore.

    As for distances on Tatooine. Luke said he could only give Obi-Wan a ride to Anchorhead and from there Obi-Wan could get a transport to Mos Eisly.
    Suggesting that the distance to Mos Eisly was large enough that Luke could not be gone from home that long.

    First, Shmi does not need to be alive to serve as bait, she serves that purpose well enough dead.
    Second, it has been a month and Cliegg had given her up for dead.
    Third, a months ration of water for one person is huge given the precious nature of water on Tatooine.
    And she must have been given food as well and in a desert, you loose a lot of water.
    So the amount she would have gotten would not be tiny plus food.
    Had she been given just a tiny amount of water and no food, she would look far worse than she does in the film.
    Again, we are talking about a month here.

    So no, not good enough reason and still senseless.

    So we must see a race doing good before thinking that mass murdering them could be a bad thing?
    What good have we seen from the Hut race? From the Jawas? The Nemoidians?

    So the issue was size and Sand People don't attack things that big.
    Or take Luke's farm, just three people and the Sand People don't attack it.
    Luke got attacked because he was alone and out in the Junland wastes.

    Also, when they had knocked Luke out, they went over to his speeder and started to look through it.
    So tech did seem to interest them.

    As has been pointed out, they did.
    Also, in the old West, Native Americans were sometimes blamed for events that they had nothing to do with.

    How much good had we seen from Vader in ANH and ESB? And yet Luke still believed that there was good in him.

    And why? Because she is adamant that they NOT fall into the hands of Burke and the company, who would try to make them into bio-weapons and thus lead to large scale death and suffering.
    She told Bishop to destroy the face-huggers he was working on. And when she was told that they would be brought back, she got very upset.
    She had her and her crew be sacrificed by the company just so they can get their hands on one Alien.
    And now it happens again.
    She wanted the Aliens all dead because she could not risk leaving them here for the company to come back and try to claim them.
    I would not deny that she had her own personal reason to hate them and want them dead.

    You do realize that your argument is very similar to those used in the past of our world?
    Many times in human history have groups been vilified, demonized, been called "primitive" ,"barbaric", "evil", "lack culture" and so on.
    All to make them seem less human and so that any crime committed against them is no big deal.
    The Jews, Romani, Blacks, Native Americans and more recently, Muslims.

    I don't think Lucas agrees with this kind of thinking and I don't think he made SW to promote them either.

    And yet, Ben does not kill them, he only scares them away.
    If they are this evil race, that only lives for death and suffering, why didn't he kill them?
    He certainly could.
    But he chooses the non-violent approach.

    And again, it was Lucas who wrote those words for Anakin.
    And I think he did it for a clear reason, that this was wrong and Anakin knew it.
    He felt hate and still does, and that hate is part of his downfall and his turn to the dark side.
    Only when he can finally let go of that hate, can he turn back.

    Lucas choose those words to show that Anakin killed both the guilty and the innocent.
    The phrase " killing the women and children" is very often used in cinema to make a bad act seem much worse.

    [/QUOTE]

    The film the Searchers does have the Native Americans as quite brutal and ruthless but not without reason. And that theirs is a proud civilization. And the film also makes it clear that bad acts have been committed by both sides. As did happen in real life.
    So it didn't have a simple moral "Indians=Bad, White people=Good."

    Many film makers have been influenced by it.
    Including Lucas, from Wikipedia;
    Bye.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  3. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Look, I'm not really arguing with you here. You have some good and valid points. I'm basically just giving some "what if" scenarios to discuss. And like I said, in this case I'm just playing that old devil's advocate for argument's sake. After all I also grew up with SW, have been more or less a fan since age 12. So naturally I enjoy discussing it, some aspects more than others.
    By the way, I didn't come up with that rape thing, someone else did that early in the thread. Since it's already 35 pages long I have lost sight of where and by whom. I merely picked up on it and presented it as a possibility, nothing more. I never said rape was 100% certainly involved. In fact the idea never even occurred to me when I first saw the movie. It was on this thread that I first read this theory.
    Of course you are right, what we do see is bad enough. In fact I think the whole Tusken sequence is pretty heavy stuff, especially when Anakin comes back with his mother wrapped in blankets, and that look on his face. Had I seen the movie as a kid that scene alone would probably have given me nightmares. Frankly, Luke finding the skeletons was pretty strong stuff as well for a movie for kids, and I guess lots of kids were really freaked out by it. But somehow this is even worse, and the music does the rest to make the scene so haunting and creepy.
    So yes, I guess I'm a little biased here. Had I been a kid seeing Anakin carrying the body might have traumatized me and maybe even turned me off from SW. As it is it's still haunting enough. Having your mother die in your arms and then taking her body home would be a nightmare for anyone, Jedi or not. After TPM I simply wasn't expecting so much darkness in SW, and was taken a bit by surprise. I felt "offended" in a way I seldom get even watching more "mature" movies. And subconsciously it probably upset me more than as I realized. So I guess that's why I tend to come across as overly eager to defend Anakin. That guy has been through HELL those few days on Tatooine. I mean, let's at least have a tiny bit of sympathy for him, without saying he was right. And knowing your MOTHER had been through hell even worse than yourself.... wow, I admit that would have done me in emotionally. At the time the movie came out I was impressed by how dark it was. Nowadays, being a different person, I have to admit I could have done with less graphic and less dark stuff. The movie is what it is, and I wouldn't change it. But it's not really something to cheer you up. Didn't see that coming from SW.
    I'll address your other points later.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  4. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    But you *seem* to go beyond "having sympathy for Anakin" to justifying his actions. Of course we feel terrible for Shmi and for Anakin, and I certainly can see how someone with Anakin's temperament sought vengeance and not justice. But, regardless, his actions were NOT RIGHT even if many of us can understand Anakin's rage. (And yes, the Tusken individuals were NOT RIGHT, either, if that needs to be said.)
     
  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I agree.
    I can understand that Anakin felt absolutely horrible after having his mother, whom he had missed for ten years, die in his arms.
    I can understand that he became really angry and wanted to lash out.
    And what happened to Shmi WAS horrible, no question there.

    So that he got so angry that he started killing, that I can in some ways understand as well.

    Where my sympathy for Anakin becomes tricky is due to two things.
    1) That he killed EVERYONE in the camp, down to the smallest child.
    Because that implies a deliberate and methodical search, chasing after those that tried to run.
    In all, it makes Anakin less out of control berserk and more in command of his faculties.
    Also this would have taken some time, time enough to calm down. But either he didn't calm down or he did but kept killing anyway.
    2) That he didn't report this to the Jedi.
    Either Anakin knew what he did was wrong, and I think he did, but didn't report this because he didn't want to face the consequences of his actions.
    Or he didn't think that this was in any way wrong and thus didn't say anything.

    These two things make Anakin cross the line into being a villain and not a tragic character.
    To me!

    Why I tend to get involved in this discussion is that both here and in other threads where this has been talked about. Some try to argue that what Anakin did was no big deal. That the Sand People are not human and thus killing them all is ok. Or try to paint them as irredeemably evil, mosters from birth that can't be anything but evil and thus Anakin did the world a favor by killing them. Even the children.
    That is a line of argument that I can't agree with nor do I think that was Lucas intent.
    I think Lucas was very clear that this was wrong and both sides did bad things.
    There can be some level of understanding for Anakin but that does not justify what he did or make it a good thing.
    I also find some of the arguments used to demonize the Sand People uncomfortably similar to what has happened in the past and is still happening in the world of today.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  6. Dathomir-Witch

    Dathomir-Witch Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2013
    It very well may have been only a momentary truce, but it shows that they are capable of recognizing a good deed and respond in kind. Specifically, they chose to repay the favor, and thus contradict what you said here:
     
  7. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    3 people probably were enough to defend the Lars farm. Maybe they had extra-strong doors or something? They certainly were armed, and could have easily shot down attacking raiders from the protection of the complex. Invaders on the other hand would have been out in the open and completely exposed. Luke has his Skyhopper as well! So he could have done a one-man "air strike" against attackers.:D
    True enough. Even with Burke dead the company would have sent others to Acheron to get specimens. STILL, Ripley was willing to destroy an entire species just because they might have been misused as bio-weapons by her own species. While completely logical and justified, from a purely moralistic standpoint this is still "slightly" shady.
    Because Ben is a Jedi maybe? Since when do Jedi condone killing even "evil" people? As we all know, what Anakin did was non-Jedi behavior.
    Well, I guess I have said everything there is to say on this topic. We have slightly differing opinions, but that's fine. Moving on to other topics now.:cool:
     
  8. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I concur. Lucas does not suggest the Tuskens were like that!

    Anakin dispensed justice. He did what was necessary, and the Tuskens had proven themselves to be evil. The League of Shadows would have approved. I can imagine Qui Gon saying, "You're training means nothing without will! The will to act..."

    I am sure many on Tatooine would have wanted to shake the hand of the man who struck back. To be fair even the Empire at least patrolled the streets of Mos Eisley. The Republic didn't exist or simply didn't care what happened to the residents of "out there" Tatooine.
     
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  9. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Finally someone who accepts a different perspective and looks beyond the supposedly universally recognized moral standard!!=D=
    I was merely trying to show the other side of things. But people are so quick to point fingers and assume I promote the killing of women and children. I never did. Glad someone understands!
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
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  10. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I concur. I read both your posts and concur! Very well written also!

    [​IMG]

    As Qui Gon said,

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Thanks @DarthTalonx !
    :D[:D]
    Some people maybe need to get off their high moral horse and have a closer look at reality.[face_dancing]
     
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  12. Dathomir-Witch

    Dathomir-Witch Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Question: If the Tusken killed off a few more settlers and all the other settlers moved to the cities because they feared for their lives and so their conflict came finally to an end - would you consider it a good thing, too? After all, what is a handful of dead settlers compared to 'peace'?
     
  13. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    No idea at all what you are driving at here. Settlers intimidated into moving to cities a good thing?? Is that what you think! Is that a solution for you? Giving in because you are intimidated? LAME! Not in my book that should happen. I support settlers standing their ground and fighting back. I'm not a big fan of giving in and retreating. I'd rather they join forces and FIGHT OFF intruders. By the way, "settler" has lots of negative connotations. Most of the farmers are just ordinary guys making a living in a harsh environment. They had no interest in starting a war with the local gangs, just wanted a life in peace. If peace from attacks and kidnappings is really too much to ask, then YES, I think they should fight back with whatever firepower they have to be left alone.
    Are you being ironic or what???
    On the contrary, what is a handful of dead "sandpeople" to maintain peace? Me? I don't care much about them, sorry, so sue me. But at least I'm being honest! The hell with them, if they have to keep attacking peaceful farmers then they might as well take the CONSEQUENCES.[face_laugh]:greensaber:
     
  14. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    I think it's implied that the whole small tribe was involved in kidnapping and torture, they certainly weren't helping her or protesting the treatment, although OTOH Anakin's line suggested he thought the women were not active (unless he just is more inclined to be merciful to women despite their actions) and the children certainly weren't involved or responsible.

    It's an interesting, although almost maddeningly ambiguous, story situation where, like Hamlet, Anakin doesn't seem to have any good options.

    I think even from a coldly pragmatic viewpoint, a whole-tribe massacre is much more likely to just create more animosity and violence later on, the kidnapping either omitted from the narrative or grossly said to be retroactively justified.
     
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  15. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Nice, not! Personally, I like my high horse...higher ground and all that, as Obi-Wan might say.
     
  16. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    True. As I said that's a possibility. On the other hand, it might have inspired other settlers to strike back as well. THEY would not have forgotten or covered the incident up, on the contrary. They may have followed Anakin's example, banded together, carried much more firepower and launch organized strategic attacks. Getting more firepower wouldn't have been a problem on Tatooine, or anywhere in the GFFA apparently, as practically every character is somehow armed. And as I said earlier, those with Skyhoppers or other aircraft could launch air raids on Tusken settlements, or at least on Tusken raiding parties, to avoid harming women and children.
    Let's just leave out morals for the moment but concentrate on the "coldly pragmatic viewpoint", as you said. So if all settlers plus other victims of Tusken attacks were to unite and create some sort of "militia" against a technologically less advanced group, what do you think the outcome would be? If this whole thing really had escalated into a war, who do you think would have won? Assuming the Tusken weren't some kind of space "Vietcong" like the Ewoks are rumored to be, they would either be wiped out or forced to surrender. In a normal combat scenario larger numbers plus more firepower would probably lead to victory.
    Before striking back the settlers could also have given some sort of warning. Even if the Tusken don't have writing they clearly have a spoken language. There would have been some droid like 3PO that speaks or can be programmed to speak Tusken. "Over 6 million forms of communication", not that far-fetched to assume Tusken to be among them. So send a droid with just a simple message: leave us alone or we will make life VERY uncomfortable for you in the future. If they do have writing, just drop flyers from the air with the same message. Or kidnap one single Tusken, make it clear to him/her that they mean business, then send him back to his tribe unharmed, as a messenger. One way or another, word would eventually have gotten around.
    Alternatively, they could have put some cash together and hired professional assassins. From the Hutts maybe? I'm sure there would have been ways in an outlaw place like Tatooine.;)
    Obviously none of this happened or else the Tusken wouldn't STILL be a threat in ANH. So all I'm saying is what COULD have been done. Also, I repeat that I'm only arguing from the settlers' purely logical standpoint, not a moralistic one! On that matter I have said all I have to say. So let's not start that again. We have all made our standpoints clear.
    To me the situation is really quite simple. From the Tusken viewpoint, if you don't want more massacres like the one by Anakin, simply quit attacking settlers. Just leave them alone and they will leave you alone. I see absolutely no reason why that would be so difficult.[face_dunno]
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  17. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    Lucas clearly intended to portray Anakin's slaughter as nothing but wrong. To argue anything else is to misread the film to the point of absurdity.
     
  18. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    "Wrong" from whose standpoint? Ask Cliegg, Owen, Beru or other settlers. They MIGHT have a different opinion!:rolleyes:
     
  19. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Correct, but I think we can easily say that for the rest of the galaxy they would most likely frown soon the killing of innocents.
     
  20. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    The rest of the galaxy are not repeatedly attacked by the Tusken, so they can comfortably and conveniently frown in the comfort of their Coruscant luxury apartments. I seriously doubt anyone would even care.
     
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  21. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Anakin still knew what was right from wrong. Perhaps in that moment he did not, but from his reaction it is abundantly clear that he regrets killing them all.
     
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  22. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    And I never said otherwise![face_sigh]
     
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  23. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Okay, that’s fine.
     
  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

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    Jan 23, 2011
    You mean apart from Lucas?

    The basic principles of natural law. Just because someone thinks something is right doesn't make it so.
     
  25. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Exactly what I said all along. Right and wrong depend on whose standpoint. I made it clear that I argued from the Tatooine population's standpoint. Shmi and other settlers were killed, someone punished the kidnappers, for the settlers justice has been served, case closed.
    Also, I wonder how LUKE would have felt if someone told him his grandmother had been kidnapped and tortured to death? My guess is he wouldn't have been too happy about that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018