ST A Call For Civility From A Fellow Poster

Pablo and Rian on Twitter are brilliant. They’re a much needed reminder that behind these films are human beings, and not just PR punching bags but actual humans who deal with stuff in a human way.

I just think that if people spend their time telling people that the story they told is ****, those people have the right to say “watch a different film then”

 

I'm not really sure that correct. There's a notion of 'not punching down' that major public figures generally do well to adhere to. Also, there's a world of difference between 'Your movie sucks' and 'You suck.'

 

I don’t think there is. If you tell someone that something they worked on for two years “sucked”, that’s plain rude.
More so when combined with the arrogance of assuming that your view among millions needs to be heard.

If I don’t like something, I would be mortified to find myself in a situation where I was asked my opinion by someone who worked on it, so to seek out creatives to say “what you made was crap” is a dick move.

 

another point, but we aren't here to demand "civility" for LFL employees, we are here to adhere to and try to uphold a standard of civility between us, regardless of what Pablo Hidalgo, Rian Johnson or even Mark Hamill have to say...

 

Agreed. It's embarrassing.

 

I have to disagree even more strongly than I did with that original point. First of all, anyone involved in the production of mass entertainment for profit has to accept that they're going to have detractors 101 times out of 100. Its part of the trade off. Second, where does arrogance enter into it? If there's a million voices, is each one of them inherently arrogant for having the presumption to make their opinion known? Third, we'd all be better off if we separate ourselves, as people, from the things we create, particularly when those things are criticized. To simply say that something sucks is not an insult to a person, unless you're saying that they are the thing that sucks.

Now, on this forum, amongst ourselves, its perfectly reasonable to maintain a higher standard of discourse, if only because there's a longer term level of interaction, and more room for more nuanced. If I take the time, for example, to make one of those 'The reasons why TLJ sucks' videos on youtube, it would be totally reasonable for someone to take the time to attack it point by point, if they disagree with it. And I would not even dream of considering that an attack on myself, unless they made it such. But a tweet at a public figure like a director/writer working for the largest entertainment entity on the planet? I'd say thats like ships passing in the night, where there's virtually no interaction, but its more like a random piece of flotsam floating past a mega cruise liner.

 

But we are not talking about the greater internet. Or someone's right to create a skewed Youtube video. Or the comments of said Youtube video. Or how we think Rian et al should act.

We are talking about our own personal behavior. Bad behavior begets bad behavior, but the responsibility to act with civility does not fall to the mob but rather the individual.

 

I'm in agreement. I'd say the crux of my point is that third point I make: that criticism of a thing, whether detailed or terse, is not inherently criticism of that thing's creator. When it is taken as such, however,, incivility can be assumed where none was intended. Which can lead to the perception of 'the first punch being thrown' so to speak, which can lead to all sorts of unpleasantness. When we take the time to separate ourselves from our creations, be they multi-million dollar films, youtube videos, or just posts on an internet forum, we can suppress that urge to escalate a situation.

 

I hear what you're saying, I do. And along that line, I also think it was extremely rude for Rian Johnson, a professional filmmaker, and the director of the movie, to tell the fans with a picture no less, that their Snoke theory sucked. I think that was completely rude, and very uncivil. Whether or not you believe he's right or not, it was a real dick move. He should be thankful that fans are that invested. To tell the passionate fans who have been following this story for decades, who have been thinking about the very characters they are creating, that their ideas suck or are essentially crap, is embarrassing. To see a professional filmmaker stoop to that level just to insult people is with his arrogance is unfortunate, especially given that his own Snoke theory was nothing at all.

 

It sounds like you're talking it out way of context and then pouring on exagerated outrage. Not really sure what that's supposed to accomplish, other than to stir up trouble.

Case in point, the picture was tweeted in July 2016, more than a year before TLJ was released. He's not insulting anyone. He's not even the creator of the meme.

 

Maybe yours as well?

 

Question: Did you read what was shared on this Snoke theory image on the page just prior to this? Or, no?

If you're interested in knowing about the context of that image I would encourage you to do so. An echo chamber where contextual corrections are forbidden can allow theorizing to escalate emotion. That's exactly what's happened with that image and there are plenty more examples beyond that.

 

Yes, I did see your post from the previous page. You speak as though I'm ignorant due to me staying in the Sanctuary thread echo chamber. The Force.net echo chamber isn't the only place I reside online. I'm aware of the context of the image. I in no way said Rian created the image, or wrote it. But he did "tell" it to fans by holding it up and knowing that it was plugging some meme/sticker/promotional company.

As you yourself said:

And that's exactly right. Perhaps Rian Johnson could have rejected holding up that image. Maybe he'd think "You know what, I don't agree with that. I like how passionate the fans are in this franchise and their investment in SW is welcomed. My movie comes out next year and I want them excited". If it's uncivil to say Rian Johnson's movie sucks on the internet, if that's rude, (and I agree, I definitely can be) then maybe it's also uncivil or rude for Rian Johnson or Lucasfilm to say that fan theory's suck a year before their movie comes out. That's it.

I'm really curious why so many would question my post as exaggerated outrage or trying to stir up trouble, when the point is - reasonably - civility is a two way street. It should apply to all of us.

 

Let's get more into specifics here.

Steele Saunders also is responsible for a kind of one-man Star Wars version of The Onion called The Midichlorian Count which serves up fake-news stories on Star Wars fandom.

Walk me through how this Snoke sticker came to be

I like to try come up with t-shirt prints that are Star Wars references but don’t necessarily look like a Star Wars t-shirt. With Star Wars Celebration Europe coming up I shelled out to print up a few thousand stickers to hand out to try get drum up some publicity for my podcast. With so much in the way of promotional fliers at a event like that I figured a flier boasting about our previous guests & reviews would just end up on the ground. But, a funny sticker would at least make people laugh.

Why do you think it’s so popular?

There’s the old cliche in stand-up [comedy]; “its funny because it’s true”. I think a lot of fans are just burned out on the ridiculous theories, many of which would just make Star Wars kinda lame. So many of the theories are just call-backs to characters that wouldn’t actually add anything to the story. [The sticker] is just a blunt reaction to that. It was really fun to watch people’s faces light up with a laugh when they read the sticker they were just handed.

Plus, the old school vintage Kenner Toys style font makes it aesthetically pleasing. We all have such warm memories of that typeface. (Which was really nicely replicated with some help from my friend Leighton James Dyer from Muckmouth.com

What’s hilarious to me is that people are actually getting mad at Rian Johnson and Pablo Hidalgo for tweeting pictures with it. It’s all in good fun people. Loosen up, keep Star Wars fun!

The sticker given to Johnson came from the Steele Wars podcast, which is now selling 'Your Snoke Theory Sucks' T-Shirts.



These stickers for a time were almost their own viral thing. They felt like part of the fandom. They were at celebration. Did you ever stop and consider perhaps that he agreed to hold the sticker for the podcast with the picture because he thought it showed that he was connected to the joke from fans by fans for fans? Context is everything here. These were popular and made by a fan and handed out at celebration. He was trying to stay connected to the viral phenomenon of them. Like, for me, it's not even the same as George Lucas trolling fandom by wearing this:


Because of the context and the short term thought that probably went into holding up that sticker in comparison to literally wearing a shirt that makes fun of one of his first experiences with fandom backlash. In either case though... I sincerely don't think the intent was to hurt people's feelings. Just playful humor.

 

I think they actually are really good on this front. They say their views while expressing themselves and while not treating fans the way that a lot of fans treat them. I think it's a lot of fans who are uncivil towards them, not the other way around. I like that they can say their opinions and would find it terrible if they had all these sanitized statements designed to offend no one.

 

So in summary if you are making fun of other fans who hold opinions on the franchise vastly different than yours because you think they are “lame” but call it joke even though it is clearly made only at their expense not yours then that is perfectly civil. Glad we cleared that up.

 

I have to disagree that TPTB or their associated people who are on social media are good at being civil to fans. Ron Howard is. Mark Hamill is. But Rian Johnson called fans who were unhappy "manbabies," Chuck Wendig said it was six people unhappy with Last Jedi, Pablo has been as much of a jerk to people as they have been to him, Freddie Prinze Jr said that fans were unhappy because they thought Han would give the Falcon to them and he gave it to "some girl" - which is not only not accurate but very bizarre. I didn't go looking for this - I follow none of them. But these comments popped on Twitter in the course of looking for Star Wars tweets. Not to mention the Lucasfilm Story Group guy who insinuated Leia was not a good mother and that led to Kylo Ren.

I'd also point out that most of the commentary from Lucasfilm and its associated hangers on and the journalists who are their favorites - Anthony Breznican of EW springs to mind - blamed fans' "headcanons" for getting in the way of them liking Last Jedi. That the movie couldn't live up to the one they had "created in their heads the last two years" as if people weren't supposed to be speculating about Rey's parentage or "who is Snoke." Speculation that EW and all the clickbait article sites were happy to spur on as it lead to hits. But if you're not a "professional" and you're speculating, you're wrong.

In my opinion, the LFL social media team should be doing a better job guiding their folks as to how to respond on the Internet - but they're too busy appearing on camera with pictures of Vader and Luke with Luke x'd out which set fans off in another frenzy. There are many social media accounts of corporations (Denny's and Arby's spring to mind) that are snarky but not mean and I don't think LFL has worked that out yet. They seem to revel in jumping all over fans

Not that there aren't a swathe of fans who haven't been nasty either - but LFL etc should be taking hints from Mark Hamill as to how to respond. They bring a lot of this on themselves and then are ever so surprised when fans are upset.

Also I've seen the way Steele Saunders responds to people and he's not a role model, frankly. I've seen a lot of SW podcast and clickbait creators who have been just as obnoxious on the side of liking the movie as the ones who hate it. Nobody's covering themselves in glory.

 

I just copied and posted an interview he gave on the subject. I don’t agree with that aspect of what he said.

See how easy it is to be declared guilty by association and lose context?

 

Why are we talking about LFL employees or former employees and how do you know he was talking about YOUR snoke theory? Maybe it’s my snoke theory?

I mean, my snoke theory did suck

 

To me, creators should not engage in petty Twitter arguments or make condescending remarks towards fans, regardless if they were rude first. Doing something like that will only fan the flames and lose the one thing that enables folks at the Lucasfilm to be above the rest: Pedastal authority. We tend to put creators on pedestals and often trust on their abilities because most of us do not feel we have the same skills to make stories on par or even better than what they made. And that notion is stronger the more infallible they appear. By engaging in these debates and making condescending remarks that generalizes the whole situation, along with a film that has proven to be controversial, destroys that illusion and now fans will see them as just people. Not folks who are clearly superior than you, but just ordinary people... who happens to control a multibillionaire franchise that other fans would envy to have. And when it becomes clear that the some fans are now running the asylum, other fans will start questioning their decisions and the canonicity impact on Star Wars.

This is why there was a pushback against Lucasfilm's explanations to unexplained stuff after TLJ. And why many people lost faith in the StoryGroup and began to search contradictions and plot holes within the official canon itself. When the creators go from patrons of storytelling and authority to regular people who are prone to make mistakes or behaviors commonly seen in a typical Twitter user, it is very easy for the critics to say without hesitation that they can make better stories than Lucasfilm.

 

Why are we discussing LFL employees? You see, if we do, those folks that were offended by Rian Johnson’s your snoke theory sucks, could they conceive that those people who enjoyed the movie find Mark Hamill’s comments rude, disrespectful and uncivil?

And do you also realize that the point of this thread isn’t about analyzing Rian Johnson’s or Mark Hamill’s offensive remarks?

 

Yes, let's keep this on topic, please.

 

I don't have an issue with MH's comments either. I don't interact with the LFL employees and I guess they can't offend me because of that. Mainly I feel that LFL is providing entertainment and yeah they're making a lot of money and really all of this is probably not that great in that Star Wars contributes to materialism and that's destroying the planet... But they don't have to provide somewhat affordable entertainment either. I mean I didn't think there would be anymore Star Wars after the PT. And I guess my view is beggars can't be choosers and I'm largely accustomed to not being a chooser. If only I would be more humble in other ways.

The only thing I think relates to civility is how WE talk about them on here because it's a public forum and our comments don't disappear. Although why I am more civil apparently towards these LFL people from afar than the others on the forum doesn't quite make sense. But they are too far away. I've never met any of them. I've never even spoken to a single one of them online through Twitter.

And oops. I didn't see mod post.

 

Wait... there's a topic?? (just kidding! )