ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

They were good but they all had problems especially the ending that were just ridiculous even ST09 which i liked one ship gets to earth you have no one around to help sigh.... All of JJs stories have terrible third acts hoping IX is not awful and is great!

 

Agreed and the less said about the end of Lost the better.

 

My vulgar theory is that Abrams is a better imitator than an innovator. Super 8 was his Steven Spielberg impression. Star Trek 2009 was his Michael Bay impression (whose entire career is one long, bad Ron Howard impression). The Force Awakens was his George Lucas impression. His tv series’ are more interesting than his films imo. But what really sets him apart is a promoter’s sensibility. He knows how to sell his ideas in interviews and can visualize how they will be digested in print. He’s better at conceptualizing his art than executing it.

But to be fair I liked ST’09, Super 8 and I’ve watched most of Lost and I like Westworld. He’s not a hack, but I do think he’s overrated. My expectations for Ep IX are very low.

 

The decision to make the six members of the KoR Luke's former students is nonsensical. No wonder Ben Solo turned, so did half of Luke's other 12 students! It would have made so much more sense for them to be other Force adepts found by Snoke.

Six more failures for Luke that no one cares a jot about and in two movies appear for a few seconds? What can be possibly done with them in IX that makes anything they do have any meaning?

 

AlyssaRosenberg is a great writer and when someone with her writing ability makes a case for anything it’s compelling, if not amusing.

However, as powerful a combination as a flair for language and a sarcastic wit can be in conjunction, they’re still only a well-tailored outfit dressing up the same old subjectivity that we all bring to this film and on Canto Bight I believe Miss Rosenberg has it wrong.

Oh, she’s absolutely right that the highs of the storytelling on Bespin are better, and that Han, Leia & Lando are more charming but a comparison between the Canto Bight storyline and that same storyline in Empire actually exposes some surprising weaknesses in storytelling within Empire as well.

The Exogorth scene serves little new narrative purpose in that we already knew Han was a great pilot. It’s every bit the detour that the beginning of Canto Bight is. However, where Canto Bight gets the edge is purpose. The plan to go to Lando was poorly thought out without any real end game explored or explained that felt heroic. Contrasted with a plan by a defector to sneak behind enemy lines to turn off a hyperspace tracking advancement and there’s no comparison. Empire’s plot is lazy busywork writing. Canto Bight’s was presented as the possible savior of the movie for the entire Resistence. Things get worse once they arrive and Lando greets them. Lando’s tour is drawn out for no other purpose than drama for the audience. As soon as they came into the facility there could have been an army waiting to apprehend them and more ready to guard the Falcon and any escape. Giving them time to get comfortable and then the slow walk to Vader was comically silly. I’m still surprised Vader didn’t spin around in his chair slowly as the door opened. Vader’s plot isn’t much better. How was he going to inform Skywalker of his high profile captures? Thankfully the Force acts as villain deus ex machina for that purpose that doesn’t come as a direct result of any action of the characters themselves. Say what you want about Snoke’s mind bridge or the hand moment leading to a vision but at least those occurred from the actions of actual characters. Similarly, I find Anakin’s dream easier to accept since it’s, well, a dream. Miss Rosenberg really focuses in on how well Empire explores morality while completely negating the fact that Lando has a total 180 against the Empire for deal terms that seemed to only modestly worsen because, well, they wanted a second Han Solo — scoundrel with a heart of gold — in the story while the original was frozen in carbonite. DJ’s true libertine approach of selling out our heroes for good in order to earn money and live, following the return of the necklace, adds legitimate grey to the saga. Meanwhile, the troopers and their notoriously terrible shooting and tactics allow our heroes to waltz right back out the way they came with no substantive force guarding the Falcon and only the hyperspace drive changed? So, they took efforts expecting a possible escape but only went to the lengths of ensuring the Falcon wouldn’t be at its very best? Which also then makes it easier to be closer when Luke force Skype’s Leia after his suicide jump almost works and suddenly the guy who was an administrator of a facility willing to sell out an old colleague is willing to head back to possibly save the Luke guy he cared about least?

The best parts about the Han plot are the charm of the actors, the Leia & Han moment before freezing, and the iconography of the carbonite process but most of that story is simply plot busy work initiated from a desire to hang out & regroup. It’s all there for the Force plot though.

Comparisons to the Bespin plot actually benefit it specifically because neither is as great as the best parts of either of the films they’re in but also because there are some tiny things Canto Bight does better. It starts with more purpose & importance. Its visuals are as good or better. The Falthier scene is IMO more fun than the Exogorth scene. DJ’s a true Libertine & his message is better to test Finn than anything Lando showed Leia that she didn’t akready know from Han. The tension on the Supremacy is justified given the stakes. The suspense on Bespin is drawn out artificially. The villains let our heroes waltz out in Empire & seem inept at stopping them. Only a kamikaze maneuver allows our heroes to escape the Supremacy. The Empire plot has no actual combat from Han. He starts running and wanting to hang out & ends being frozen. Finn contributes to a plan & then goes behind enemy lines as a known traitor bravely and ends up fighting & killing his former child slave master. Han’s sets up yet another plot related to being held capture and the rescue of Han in ROTJ is so nonsensical later that it almost makes the criticism for the slow chase race almost feel like it’s being judged by a second, stricter set of rules that don’t come out for earlier episodes with more nostalgia. Something applied to the ST often with now adults raised in the PT joining the fray to do the same.

 

I thought the idea had a lot of merits, especially after I read the TFA novelization (No longer canon anymore so whatever now) where Snoke was reaching out to twist people to the Dark Side I thought it was cool and could have played into something a lot larger as we get this whole new Dark Side sect. Instead Snoke is dead, Luke is dead and the plot point really doesn't deserve a lick of development in IX as there is enough of a mess to clean up.

 

The ST deciding to take a quicker approach in getting audiences into the conflict of the new films does not in any way excuse the decision to skim over such an important plot development for Luke Skywalker, and handle it this sloppily and with such threadbare explanation. This isn't some passive factoid about how the Force works, or some smidgen of political intrigue to better set the stage for an incoming conflict...this is an aspect of Luke Skywalker that contradicts with his overcoming of his trial at the end of ROTJ, one that begs proper and well-implemented explanation, and is the emotional crutch by which Luke's entire "failure" in TLJ rests upon, and by which the central antagonist was created. This is part of the family drama in a Star Wars film, and it's given the poorest explanation of any narrative element in the saga to date, despite being hoisted as the emotional foothold. To relegate something that important to the EU not only alienates casual viewers (which, as of Solo, Lucasfilm as shown they're not above doing just to ensure something like petty fan-service), and only inflames the problem that a supplementary product produced months after TLJ is required to better explain why we should be emotionally invested or properly grasp the weight of Luke's failure in the actual film. The original EU and the Prequels were not required to understand the emotional turmoil or family drama in the OT---they were not essential for people to be invested in what was going on, to comprehend the nature of Luke's actions, or to be fully immersed in the emotional drama of the film. This isn't some kind of off-screen incident like Rogue One's theft of the Death Star plans, or a collection of lines to build Han Solo's origins for a spin-off film---this is the development of a major character, who performs actions on-screen that are poorly-explained and require supplementary material to properly understand the context for, while being simultaneously screamed at by the film that the actions/scene are emotionally-provoking, and refusing to tell you why or justify it unless you pay to see Episode 28 in 2045.

Regardless of whether or not this broken model of relying on other material to provide emotional investment for current products appeals to you specifically is besides the point---this is an objectively flawed and backwards approach to telling stories.

Relegating the build-up to the current conflict and world-building of the galaxy to books, comics and future films is one thing. Relegating the necessary plotting to make Luke's actions believable in a film as hell-bent on being dramatic as TLJ is something else entirely.

That doesn't change the fact that those things weren't in the original film, and are arriving one year late (or later) to provide emotional investment, weight, drama and believability to a film that needed all of those things ON RELEASE. The OT didn't require the PT to make sense and garner investment, and the PT didn't require the EU or TCW to make sense or garner investment....both trilogies stood on their strengths and weaknesses when they were showcased to fans initially.

Probably because they were better-written stories that were intended to be fully enjoyed on the first showing. Y'know...how ALL films are supposed to be? You don't turn in your essay to your teacher without a thesis, and then provide that thesis in the middle of summer vacation. You submit complete work. TLJ is either incomplete work at best, or horribly-written work relying on mountains of head-canon and complete disassembling of disbelief at worst.

Either way, it's a lacking film.

I've been hearing this song and dance about future material making current products better for a while now. Back when I was a lurker on this forum back in 2016-2017, I saw that excuse a lot from people trying to justify the empty, vapid, poorly-thought out storyline in TFA, waving the shield that "Ep. 8 will make all of 7's problems disappear by providing all the answers we need." Dozens of poorly-resolved or flat-out ignored plot threads later, and those sentiments have aged about as well as milk.

You can believe in whatever you wish. But the poor writing decisions Rian has made, the lack of weight or properly established drama, and gross mishandling of characters in the film we received is the only thing relevant to this thread, and reoccurring critical discussions of TLJ. Not the film you imagined you got based on a wealth of assumptions, not the film we could've gotten, and not the film/supplementary media we will receive in years to come. The pros and cons of the OT were not altered by the outbreak of EU content in the 90's. The Prequel Trilogy's most important aspects were not enhanced by necessity through any of the Clone Wars projects through 2014. Everything those films did well or poorly are solely confined to their release, as are the worst aspects of the ST. Believe me, the characters and plot of the current films have not been made better by the current flux of books like Aftermath, Bloodlines, Finn's Story, Phasma or the Poe Dameron comics. The parts of both TFA and TLJ that are being criticized in this thread aren't about to be magically waved away by supplementary material.

And neither are the criticisms of myself, nor any other dissenter on this board. They, much like the crippling flaws of ST, are here to stay.

The PT was not required to understand the drama, emotional weight, plot development or tension between Luke and Vader in the OT. It may have provided some nice background info, which as a stalwart Prequel Fan you will never hear me discredit, but nothing they established was integral to the story to the point where the OT would suffer and appear fragmented without their inclusion.

The Death Star plans were a McGuffin--all the necessary information about them is established on-screen in ANH, and they aren't the emotional crutch of the story...if Rogue One was never made, ANH wouldn't suffer as a story. Han's brief mentioning of the Kessel Run and winning the Falcon from Lando are not core assets of the plot, and
aren't the emotional crutch of the story...if Solo was never made, Han would not suffer or lack depth as a character.

Luke developing random Dark Side urges after 28 years of fostering a peaceful Jedi Order---without the explanation or detail required to make anything he does believable, organic, or dramatic---is a core part of TLJ's plot by which the family drama and the Force-related conflict is entirely centered around. The audience's ability to emotionally resonate with Luke's struggle and Kylo's rising antagonistic relevance ENTIRELY rely on what we are told, and how effectively that information is provided. Without that information, without that proper, organic establishing of context, there is no drama, failing to disguise the nostril-curling stench of how forced this plot-thread is, and how poorly-planned and inconsistent it is with everything the films have established prior. If your prospective filler movies, prequels, or revelation-filled spin-off media is made, then it is made for the saddest purpose imaginable: to make up for the writing deficiencies of a poorly made movie.

And that is a pitiful new standard that no Star Wars movie has had to stoop down to.

George Lucas had his own plans for the ST outlined in the now infamously-unused treatments that have been revealed in the last year: his version ommitted pretty much everything that, according to you, I have "a degree of bias for." No Mara Jade, no New Jedi Order, no Yuuzhan Vong, or Solo Trio of Children---it would've been an entirely different story, in rigid accordance to where Lucas wanted to take the story. I would've had no issue with this because, in spite of whatever this new story did, the Expanded Universe was always going to remain...and I'm always curious to see what Lucas does, since I'm a massive fan of his work. I would've gone into his movies exactly as I did going into TFA---accepting whatever I saw on-screen as an alternate universe continuation of the Star Wars galaxy, and try to take it on its own merits. I didn't need Luke to be a carbon copy of what he was in the EU, because even in Lucas' treatments, he wasn't gong to be that way. In fact, by not adhering to the EU, the ST had a far easier job of having Luke's character make sense. The writers had less ground to cover, the benefit of a time-skip, and the benefit of having the film be the direct sequel to ROTJ. Whether it be from Lucas, Abrams, or Johnson, my investment in the story and in Luke Skywalker was never dependent on my ability to let go of the EU...all I needed was the character and story to be good, or at least make sense. Guess what? It wasn't either of those. These new elements that are being done with Luke's character in the ST aren't a problem because he isn't like the EU version---it's because these new elements are TERRIBLE. They're vapid, inexplicable, framed in flimsy and undeveloped context, lathered in pretentious melodrama, and capped off with insultingly-colossal dismissals of logic, consistency, and knowledge of the character from past films. I have a news flash for you: I have encountered stories in the EU, like The Force Unleashed, that match this exact description. And despite being apart of the holy EU you seemingly think I bow and pray to, those stories STILL SUCK. My love of the EU does not, has not, and never will determine my ability to appreciate a good story...the reason I, and people who didn't even indulge in the EU when it was out despise this vomit stain of a film is because the story isn't good.

So, I will reiterate this again, since you clearly didn't get the message the first time. My experience with the EU has no bearing on my opinion of these new movies.

I know you want to believe this, because it makes it far easier to dimiss my opinion as the byproduct of EU bias. But unfortunately, that bias was never there. I already used this example, but I'll use it again---Star Wars Rebels contradicts, overrides, and ignores the ENTIRETY of the EU storylines that take place in the same Dark Times era between Ep. III and IV. Did my bias towards Dark Horse's Empire comics, Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade, or Talon Karrde taint or infringe on my viewing of Rebels in any way?
Absolutely not. I love Rebels as much as, or even more than I do the EU stories set in the same period---because just like the stories in that period, the characters are well-written, and the narrative choices are weighted in dramatic nuance that has been earned by the story.

This assumption about my position on these movies isn't just facetious or random...it's false. Between this, and your claims about Luke's behavior in this movie, I'm beginning to wonder if you have anything stronger to argue with besides poorly-founded head-canon.

What exactly do you think happens when people like me watch these movies, exactly? Did you think I spent my first viewing of TFA sobbing silently in rage that Mara Jade wasn't the female heroine, Jacen Solo wasn't the troubled Force-User, and the plot-twist wasn't some cloned apparition of a resurrected Palpatine? I can separate unrelated, non-EU productions from the EU without any kind of emotional barrier or breakdown...so long as the quality is good.

I've gotten through 69 episodes of Rebels just fine.

Neither are any of your assumptions about numerous Dark Side incidents that supposedly built off of Luke's moment of rage in ROTJ, that apparently justifies Luke bursting into Dark Side Berserker Rage decades later.

The difference between you and me is that I don't take material that isn't canon or implied anywhere on-screen to justify poor writing. As amusing as that irony is, given what you're constantly accusing me of.

Except, as I stated, none of that was essential to lend emotional weight or tension to the family drama playing out.

With how much of Luke's "failure" and status as practically a completely different character in TLJ (and an atrociously-written one, at that) is dependent on tangible explanation and the framing of context through events set in the past, finer details are absolutely necessary here. Especially when, unlike the ST, Luke and Vader's conflict wasn't following a 30 year gap of an established narrative and framed within such a poorly-planned and vaguely-detailed setting and era, like TFA and TLJ are.

That is a terrible comparison. The Star Wars universe only comprised of two other movies before then. By the time TLJ came out, there were 7 other main-series films, one of which is 30 years removed from the events of its predecessor. People are watching these films absolutely in context of each other now, in ways that they DIDN'T watch the OT.

This is a cop-out excuse to justify the poor narrative framing and lack of proper explanations in this film.

Luke's momentary lapse into rage in ROTJ is not grounds for any kind of foreshadowing, especially with the time that has passed. Taking a line Yoda says in ESB, and shoveling over logical consistency in spite of everything Luke accomplishes in ROTJ is to ignore not just everything that happens, but to use as a convenient excuse for the lack of details the film provides.

You're using Luke's lapse in a lightsaber duel 28 years prior to the film not because Rian Johnson sufficiently hinted to it or successfully used it as grounds for what happens in his story (and even if he did, it would be stupid beyond measure, for reasons I have already illustrated), but because you have no better example from the actual film to use.
You have to probe into the deepest reaches of head-canon to prove something that the film never even tells us or alludes to.

I have typed exhaustively about why this a terrible precedent and why this absolutely does not excuse the film's faults.

This is not used at any point in the film to explain Luke's actions or where his random Dark Side Impulse came from. As many people on this board have already pointed out, being a Skywalker doesn't automatically equivocate to being susceptible to falling to the Dark Side. Regardless of what you accept, this is not a valid rebuttal to anything I have stated. It is not evidence, or based on anything we are shown or told in the film.

The only point we have reached is a conclusion in which you have failed to provide a rebuttal to even most of the points I have raised, and the rebuttals you do provide are either based on assumptions you have made entirely off of non-film or canon evidence, through a misplaced belief about my relationship with the EU, and through an extremely questionable endorsement of vital character-building and emotional context being provided in future media.

If this is where you want to end our discussion, that's fine. But you're going to continue participating in a thread dedicating to criticizing this film trilogy's faults, you should consider formulating statements that function more like arguments than poorly-founded excuses. Because you're not going to find many supporters when the bulk of your defenses boil down to projecting assumptions about people's patience and biases.

Nevertheless, this was a good conversation exercise. Your participation was most welcome.

Considering he was one of the central parties who helped greenlit Solo in the first place, I find this statement hilarious.

I also wonder what the executives at Disney must be thinking about TLJ's entire financial run being dwarfed by Jurassic Park 2 debuting in China alone. I'm pretty darn skippy Kathleen's not about to hand over a lightsaber via Twitter in reverence of Universal's success anytime soon.[/user][/USER][/QUOTE][/user][/user][/USER][/user][/user][/user][/USER][/user][/user]

 

Personally I liked it bcs it improves on one of the questionable aspects of ANH. Where the Death Star is destroyed & yet the Rebels then have time to party & celebrate, & even repair R2 back to mint condition (taking days or weeks?). In reality they should've been evacuating ASAP. The Empire knew of their location. A fleet of Star Destroyers would've appeared in orbit within hours. I was glad to see that exact thing happen at the opening of TLJ.

She knows that the FO are the enemy of the galaxy. She's seen it first hand, when she was held & tortured. She knows Snoke is their leader. She learns that he corrupted Ben Solo. Snoke was manipulating her via the Force to want to confront him & defeat him, thinking she can recruit Ben Solo in the process. I think there's more than enough establishment of her motives.

And that arc is still intact. He hasn't turned to the DS. Having some more close calls in his life is fine as long as he overcomes them, just as he did in RotJ. Each to their own but I personally find your take on Luke to be quite dull, not to mention unrealistic. Luke having permanently conquered temptation of the Dark Side in that one instance is a glaring missed opportunity dramatically speaking. If we're to have more movies featuring an older Luke, what's far more interesting is that he is & always will be Anakin/Darth Vader's son. Overcoming temptation should be something he deals with for life. To me that's what was foreshadowed in the OT. When he learns that Vader is his father. When he sees his own face behind Vader's mask on Dagobah. When he looks back & forth between his mechanical hand & his father's. What's more during the throne room encounter in RotJ Luke had a moment. A brief time where he let the Dark Side in. Where he was almost consumed by it. Bcs he's Luke he was able to fight it back, but I'd totally buy that having that experience would stay with him. You could even say that for a few seconds Luke "Started down a dark path". What did Yoda say about "Once you start down a dark path..."? I'd certainly agree that the DS didn't take hold of him to the extent that he'll ever fully turn, but would overcoming it in that one instance mean that he's conquered all DS temptation forever? I think that's lame & like I said, dramatically boring. I'd be shocked if even Lucas didn't feel the same way. We know that in he & Arndt's EpVII draft Luke begins the story in exile & "in a dark place". There's too much dramatic gold to be mined from older Luke having some further issues with the DS & his inherited nature for that to be ignored.

 

@Darth Nobunaga

Apparently, there really is some serious consideration as to moving Kathleen Kenedy out of at least the head of creative at Lucas film right now. She is amazing at producing moving and getting things done but as Screen Junkies and others have put it Star Wars was always this family saga and has been expanding beyond it and with the ST effectively killing that Saga unless it veers another direction in IX. WIth what they decided to do with the OT characters I wish they had never done the ST and maybe done a bridge film with all 3 of them set the stage for what the Galaxy would look like with new characters. Star Wars has a real problem now and that is how to grow in China and everyone seems baffled by for some reason which I find Ironic since a lot of Star Wars is based on Asian films. If you want to sell Star Wars in China you go Old Republic full on Martial Arts style movie and boom you have your hit and if it's well written like Crouching Tiger you may even have a best picture nomination as well! Anyhow, I digress.

The ST has made a lot of mistakes a lot of them are really simple ones that have led to larger ones and someone with a better grasp on where this trilogy was going and what needed to be done to get there could have easily corrected them by insisting on small things like a Time Jump. As great of studio head that KK can be the one thing is clear she is completely out of her league with regards to running the creative and the MCU is blessed to have Kevin Feige at the helm.

 

I never took the medal scene on Yavin IV being more than like a day or a half day later well some of them are celebrating while the others were packing to evacuate as soon as possible. There would also realistically be a delay due to the Death Star being destroyed and the commanders of the fleet and Vader not being present. Supplemental elements have made it quite clear that the ceremony was not long after the battle and they got the hell out of there right afterward. Now I know I have trashed the new canon a bit before, however the story they have chosen to tell with regards to the medal ceremony just makes logical sense to me and after losing the Death Star and not knowing how the rebels did it there's no way the Empire would jump in a massive fleet without some scouting of the situation. We also know that Yavin IV was one of the major bases however it was not all of the alliance that were present.

 

So Canto Bight is better executed than Bespin. I respect all opinions but now I've heard it all. Wowsers.

 

I'd always assumed that nero wiped out most of the earth fleet when they arrived over vulcan.

 

Bringing back this waste of space is not a legacy. Even if Luke was tertiary involved with it.

 

Some of you may be happy to know that I’m going to take a break from this thread & this particular board and move things to the Ep IX board for a while.

The ST by most accounts is a soft reboot that wasn’t primarily aimed at hardcore fans like us as its top priority and this is evidenced by choices made to blow up Legends and revisit so many old story beats.

Reboots and soft reboots like this or Trek play worst within the hardcore communities for these types of reasons and for reaching out to the mainstream a little more. Somehow, myself and some others here — despite loving older Star Wars episodes a lot — have been able to enjoy many aspects of the ST despite the familiarity and the big gap in time we are missing that would better set it up. In some cases some of us even think some aspects were better executed than some of the original inspirations!

But I’ve shared many of my criticisms of the ST already and I’ve addressed the common criticisms I think are least justified. There’s many things that I wish had been done better and many things that probably have to happen in IX or else the entire ST could end up worse by failing to deliver on its potential and to tie together better over IX films. If that happens I’ll be angrier than I am now and perhaps closer to how some of you are now.

Until then, life is too short and Star Wars enjoyment is too precious.

See you in the Ep IX threads!

E&B

 

I get wanting to appease one of the greatest movies ever but this just doesn't wash. The Rebels were completely in the dark as to what the Empire would do. Tarkin could've called for backup long before the DS was even destroyed, & a fleet could appear from hyperspace at any moment. Word could've been passed on to the Imperials way back when the DS began tracking the Falcon. They could've calculated the Falcon's trajectory, worked out which system they were heading for & informed the nearest fleet admiral. Bottom line is the Empire now knew about Yavin. No time for ceremonies or droid repairs, which you didn't mention & would've taken quite some time. TLJ for all its flaws addresses the fallout of SKB in a far better way.

 

This is very glaring in the scenes on the Supremacy, to the point that I experience a kind of falseness in discussing Rey's and Kylo's characterisation on the basis of what they do and say there- I almost feel most of them time it isn't really them, that we're watching the Galactic Theatre Company performing selections from the "Skywalker Cycle".

Why is Kylo suddenly begging Rey to rule the Galaxy with him? He's playing "Vader". Why is Rey utterly shocked, indeed devastated, to find Kylo likes the Dark Side just fine and fully intends to stay put? She's playing "Lukmé". Why is she completely recovered next time we see her? *shrug* Show's over. (Makes more sense than having her a.) be more idealistic than Luke and Padmé put together by an order of magnitude, and b.) show absolutely no consequences from having her ideals smashed to powder).

...Why does Kylo tell Rey she's a worthless peasant? Ah, well, that's him breaking character for a moment to let the snobbery that is part of his actual personality slip through the "Vader" impression.

Heck, this way I might even be able to like the scene...

Yes, that Luke has a temper, and that this was the specific way the Dark Side got through to him when it did- that I can get behind. (I think it chooses the path of least resistance, like water). What I disagree on is that this makes him a "Dark Side type", who can always be expected to fall at the drop of a hat, for any reason at all. Once again, the two situations are completely different. Losing it in a fight with someone already guilty of terrible crimes who is taunting you vs contemplating "putting down" a sleeping adolescent who has never actually done anything. (As far as we know, anyway). That's hot-and-cold different.

 

IDK. Making a new character stand-out and do something meaningful doesn't sound like a tall order when the competition is as weak as Rey & co. Hell, I care more about the average Pixar animated short protagonist than I care about Rey.

If the KoR are presented as cool, badass force users, there'll probably be at least a mild predisposition for people to like them. The ST isn't exactly overflowing with 'cool' at the moment. Pick one of the KoR to focus on. Imbue said character with some instant gravitas by making them related or connected to legacy. Give them a badass saber or force use moment and a scene with Ren where they discuss Luke. Voilà, a character sporting cool gear that will probably be more meaningful to the narrative (and sell more merch) than Rose Tico even with only 1/3 of her screen time.

 

Fantastic conversation and great reasoning. I now see that my fears from 2013 are totally unfounded. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

@Ender





Ps: just as an aside is there actually a cooler moment in all of SW history than Lando and Fett sharing that moment in the gif above?

 

Nah, that's just your inner fanboy talking. If you were only sophisticated enough to put aside your head-canon-addled, OT addicted, toxic naïvety, you would realise that not only is "The Last Jedi" the best since "Empire" (as usual)... not only is it better than "Empire"... it's so brilliant that even its worst, most pointless filler subplot is superior to "Empire's" entire third act.

That's some film, that is.

 

That’s your opinion i disagree Tarkin would never call for backup he would want the glory for himself as we have seen him depicted that way in the movies especially Rogue One. He even mentions that they are taking an awful risk chasing the base so i feel that the movie does enough to foreshadow it.

Palpatine loved having his officers fight and keeping them on edge and not sharing all of the information with them and that is one of the reasons that the empire fell due to the fact that it doesn’t function like a proper military. In any case this isn’t the thread to discuss this.

We do agree on the fallout of SKB in TLJ they however. One day made no sense the way it was depicted.

 

Why would they send all of their ships to Vulcan. What about space stations shuttles etc. I get that most of the fleet is gone but to just have the whole planet sitting there was ridiculous. Especially with what happened after Vulcan.

Anyhow this isn’t a ST09 thread it works in context of the story well enough but stands out when put up to scrutiny which is a lot of the issues with TLJ and i am hopeful we won’t get it with IX