ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Funny enough, that was kinda working against me because I have an eye defect and thus don`t see the 3D effects. I mean, I have to wear the glasses to get a clear picture but while my friends occasionally jump in their seats because they feel like an object is coming right at them, I`m sitting in the theater going "what? what is it?" I can sort of guess where the effect is but that`s all. So Avatar had to work for me on story and characters alone - and it didn`t really.

When I saw original Star Wars, special effects of that scale also weren`t such novelty anymore but here, story and characters worked for me. The effects were just a little bonus.

Obviously, the ST is done by today`s standards so cinematograpy and effects are nice but I just expect that considering the company, the budget, the brand name and everything. On the other hand, I`m puzzled why TLJ gets so lauded for visuals or cinematography.

The montage of the circle of life and death within the force on Ahch-To kinda worked for me, the music helped a lot there. But other than that, the place of the first Jedi temple just was a letdown. I expected some mystical vibe but Jedha on Rogue One tickled my fancy a lot more. Àhch-To had big potential in terms of lore and instead the place looked very much Earth-like.

The dark side cave scene was IMO just pretentious and shallow. Crait was Hoth with salt. Yes, the red visuals were a nice touch but the depiction of the world itself left me shrugging my shoulders. The "duel" was just a couple of wide shots that made the entire scene less than dynamic. Canto Bight was IMO an utter fail.

There were mostly good performances from all the actors, despite the material they got, so I would put that down as positive for directing - in comparism for example George Lucas who is not a actor`s directors.

So to me TLJ isn`t a "stunningly beautiful" flick, it certainly isn`t ugly-looking but lots of stuff feels to close to home for me as in Earth-like and it lacks the mysticism I longed for. I actually thought Rogue One had some really beautiful location shots though I wouldn`t call it "stunning" either. I can`t remember when I last saw a movie where the visuals blew me away.

Which I do not get at all. Jedi and lightsabers have always been the thing that made SW unique. It is an insanely popular part of the franchise. If not for those aspects, what sets it apart from other Sci-Fi back in the day? Not much.

So anyone thinking "lets throw those out, that wasn`t popular in the OT" leaves me gobsmacked.

 

Here’s the question that will define the future for this franchise: does anyone care about Star Wars outside of the Skywalker saga? If the answer is no then yikes.

 

Of course, noone can know that answer now but if they do present something completely new and then audiences realize "nope, I think I only really liked that one part", then yes, they are in deep guano.

 

I have discussed this before in the BO thread, but allow me to repeat it again: I think the problem of SW marketability in Asian countries not familiar with SW started with TFA, and TLJ only made it worse. Mostly, TFA was made for an audience that had either seen the movies or were at least familiar with its concepts, and banked hard on nostalgia for its appeal. It didn’t bother to properly set up the Force before it had Rey doing mind tricks without explanation, it didn’t bother to properly set up the galactic conflict before it had the SKB blowing up 5 random planets of a New Republic that was never even a player in the movie, and it didn’t bother to give a compelling justification for the characters’ motivations because it assumed the audience would automatically get emotionally behind on the quest to find this dude named Luke Skywalker because reasons.

Then TLJ comes in and goes on a rambling about the PT Jedi and SW philosophy, once again, assuming the audience watched the PT or were at least aware of what the heck is a Jedi and why should they care. The “kill the past” drama may have resonated well with many critics and TLJ lovers, but how does that resonate with an audience that has literally no knowledge of what that past was? I tell you, it doesn’t.

It would be wise for them to treat the new trilogies as assuming that a part of the audience they which to pull in is not familiar with SW. Meaning, explain your plot. Explain the concepts. Probably explain the Force, at least. Make the worldbuilding clear. Give the characters goals that are clear, that are universal and not nostalgia-dependent.


There has been a lot of blaming directed at RJ’s movie and I have my immense list of complaints as well, but I think the screw up started with JJ’s TFA. It was just poorly scripted introduction to Star Wars for the virgin audiences, particularly in Asia. I know too many examples of Asians confused at what the heck was going in the movie. Westerners among my friends who had never seen a SW movie, were at least familiar with the concepts from constant pop culture references in their home countries.

 

@Qui-Riv-Brid

Indeed. I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that similarity.

2018's Tomb Raider was almost an identical story, but where all the story beats are the flipside of TLJ and where all the creative decisions for Luke and Rey and backstory and character are better.

Oh and it looked great, too. I thought Roar Uthaug actually directed the film easily as impressively as Rian. I'd suggest overall the visuals were actually better.

Roar is another interesting story. I might suggest LFL should seriously consider working with this guy. He seems to understand how to use source material.

Oh and he was massively influenced by lucasfilm - particulatly Raiders.



Interesting to hear his take on the previous Tomb Raider movies, which were truly awful. That term we dare not mention to describe Rey: I think in the dictionary it has a picture of Lara Croft next to it. Roar addressed that nicely.

 

And the vast indifference to a movie about Han Solo - I mean, I thought it was crazy to make a movie with a new actor after you killed the character but someone must have thought "well James Bond..." - one of the most popular characters in the OT, must be REALLY making them sweat about now. They keep thinking that they can just plug and play Star Wars into the Marvel model, make a movie and people will come....to quote Dr. Phil, how's that working for ya?

Even little things - does Luke really call the Emperor Darth Siddious instead of the Emperor? I mean, I have to always remember that that's the Emperor's title. Or bringing back Darth Maul in Solo and people wondering how in hell Han is so old since they saw Maul die in Phantom Menace and don't know about the Clone Wars TV show.

 

Avatar for me felt too much like Cameron's other films when I saw some of it on TV. 3D lacked appeal as I already wear a pair of specs, I don't want to have to put on a second.

Getting back to SW and TLJ:

Yep and it is without any context whatsoever - it assumes to an absolute degree the viewer has seen and remembers the PT. But then it goes all the other way by asserting the Jedi "allowed" Sidious' takeover, which certainly isn't the story of the PT. The story of the PT, in part, is of the Jedi getting utterly out-played by Sidious. Thus the idea they could have stopped him is only possible with fantasy hindsight.

 

You both touch on something I have been wondering about, but first: there is a understandable confusion between the meaning of a jungle and a forest. “Jungle” is not a scientific term, but it is commonly used to describe a rainforest, typically (but not only) seen in tropical weather areas. Recently there has been an attempt to narrow down the definition of the word to meaning an area of extremely dense, tangled and diverse ground vegetation that makes penetration impossible for normal humans, supported by tress of narrow canopy, that commonly surrounds rainforests.

A (normal) forest on the other hand, is characterized by tall tress of large canopy with an undergrowth of easy access to humans.

In any case, there is no “jungle” seen in D’Qar, neither in Greenham Common (the location has forests – not rainforests – and I think that is what we saw in the background.) Birkendoc has a point, the uniform grassy fields with a few bushes here and there we see in D’Qar do not indicate a jungle location or a rainforest location. Compare that to Yavin 4, where we have glimpses of tangled and diverse vegetation surrounding the base that is characteristic of a rainforest.

I suspect the reason why D’Qar was described as a jungle world is because Fry saw it as Yavin 2.0 and just based on that. Personally, I would have described it as a grassy world with forests because that's just how it looks like, and it would also make it at least a bit distinguishable from Yavin 4.

That being said, there was something really odd – and geographically uncharacteristic - about the design of the Resistance bases in D’Qar, in which, despite being built under fields of grass, they had large tangling tree roots trailing through the walls (probably CGI-ed) that were reminiscent of discovering the ruins of a temple in a Cambodia map of a Tomb Raider game. It doesn’t make much sense (if there are tree roots underneath, why the top is only covered in grass?), but I wonder if that also influenced Frey to describe it as a “jungle” world.

 

I feel like the new Tomb Raider is such a great comparison film for an action movie with a female protagonist. I just re-watched it again after buying it and the difference in treatment of Lara versus Rey is so stark. Lara is without a doubt the central character of that film, unlike Rey in TLJ. Everything is about her, and the filmmaker clearly has faith in her ability to carry the story (again, unlike Rey in TLJ). She makes the decisions that move the story forward (once again, unlike Rey - there's a pattern here). She struggles. She gets her ass handed to her over and over and over. She doesn't throw a skinny arm punch in the jaw on a big trained guy for him to fall over like that's a thing. It's shown where her skills come from and how she's developed them, and she uses those skills in a way that complements her very specific and laid out strengths. She's shown using a bow and arrow as a child multiple times, and then she uses one as an adult very affectively. She's shown boxing and training, fighting dirty even, as a hobby, and then later she uses the same skills to save herself in life and death situations, only now she's genuinely afraid and gets believably hurt in the process. Her strength isn't brute force. She's limber, swift, courageous, and she knows her opponents' weaknesses. She needs help and she offers help. She doesn't ever lose sight of the lives at stake, like a real hero in an action adventure movie should be.

Rey lacks all of these things. Seriously every single one, thanks to the script. She's cocky when she fights with a weapon she just picked up for the first time two days ago against trained, professional opponents that want to kill her. She fights better than them on their turf. She doesn't struggle against enemies and she doesn't have to learn or earn her skills. On the other side of things, unlike Lara she's an insecure emotional wreck. She spends the movie mostly crying and begging other people to tell her what her point here is. She doesn't have her own goal, unlike Lara setting out to find and hopefully rescue her missing father. She doesn't have specific skills that are laid out as her strengths. She's really just good at everything skill wise. And definitely, considering that she's supposed to be a hero, she really loses sight of the lives of Kylo's victims while she's cozying up to him.

Luke vs. Lara's father is also an interesting comparison to make. How Tomb Raider handled Lara's father is one of my gripes with the film, which doesn't surprise me now that you compare it to Rey/Luke. There are some definite parallels there. Lara's father is portrayed as kind of cooky, and he does get subjected to a lecture or two by his daughter. At the same time, this script let him be a hero multiple times. He saves her and ultimately he helps save the day. He gets to be self-sacrificial only unlike Luke, it is actually moving. It doesn't feel tacked on. This action in the end is what saves Lara in her final battle, because once again, regardless of how cool she was, she needed help every step of the way. It just kind of reinforces to me how much TLJ sort of went out of its way to deprive Luke of good moments until that very end, tacked on feeling moment that doesn't really seem that consequential in terms of the plot. Stalling bad guys for 15 minutes so heroes can run away just doesn't have an epic or inspirational ring to it, especially when the heroes are shown standing around for the 15 minutes prior when they could have been running.

I'm not sure Tomb Raider is so great on source material though. I thought it diverged in some key ways, a couple that really irritated me. That's based on the games. I don't remember the Angelina Jolie movies and I also don't care about them. I thought the first one was trash whenever it came out and I don't think I ever saw the sequel.

 

I agree with this to a certain extent. The irony though is that I believe the primary point of this soft reboot under the guise of this being WWII to and history repeating in some ways due to the failures of the Anakin not being taught by the Skywalkers to their offspring was to reach out to new audiences while keeping the interest of some of the old by trying to do what worked in the OT where we were just dropped into this world of finding some Obi-Wan Kenobi (and later Yoda) who we knew little about during the middle of this conflict with a totalitarian regime in power and a rebellion fighting back.

On those terms I do think TFA does a pretty comparable job of telling the audience what they need to know as ANH in all but the Force plot. In ANH we meet Kenobi quickly and get that explanation of the Force fairly soon. In TFA our hero is met first by the Dark Side and the meeting of the Jedi is delayed and he’s reluctant.

I’ve likened Rey’s Force journey in comparison to that of Anakin’s & Luke’s as being more lost before and closer in some ways almost to Alice through the looking glass where she’s almost fallen into this world and all of these strange characters and bouncing around searching for answers and a purpose that increases as he story presses forward.

One small change that might have helped TFA more in its Force plot, would have been for the mind probe scenes between Rey & Kylo Ren in TFA to be visualized initially. I wouldn’t normally advocate for visuals in this kind of situation because I do feel like audience imagination can sometimes be better but TFA really missed a tremendous opportunity in the mind probe to show us some very interesting things that might have helped new audiences:

1) Show is young Rey.
2) Show us the island.
3) Show Rey at different ages seeing people from behind and running up and saying “Mom? Dad?” And none of them being her parents and Plutt telling her she needs to stop that.
4) Show us Ben Solo as a child.
5) Show us Ben Solo as a teen talking to Snoke through the Force.
6) Show us Ben Solo learning the Jedi mind trick at the temple.
7) Show him concentrating to pull a saber and doing it & give us Hamill voice over encouraging him.

Even 30 seconds of random visuals like that would have helped a lot of what they seemed to want to setup later in that film and also the ST.

 

I don’t think it does.

ANH was a simple story with universal concepts. There was an evil Empire in control of everything and a band of rebels fighting against it. Simple. Everyone knows what an Empire is, and these same stories exist around the world.

The protagonist, Luke, as well as the audience, are properly introduced to the concept of Jedis who once protected peace in the galaxy before the dark times, the Empire, and his father used to be a Jedi. So he takes the Jedi mantle and tries to learn the ways of the Force and joins the Rebellion to fight for peace. The character motivations as well as the plot goal are laid out crystal clear, as they are the same.

TFA tries to be “different but the same”, but forgot to explain its different concepts. There is a First Order (what is a First Order?). The First Order is trying to find Luke Skywalker and prevent the Jedi to rise (what are the Jedi and Luke Skywalker and why does it matter?). In order to do that they blow up the New Republic because they were supporting the Resistance (what is a New Republic? What is a Resistance? How the heck is that even connected?). The heroes must find Luke because….? Well, "balance" I guess. Whatever that means.

The stakes of the narrative aren’t laid out very clear because the movie never bother to explain the SW mythos and their concepts in layman terms.

Also, don’t underestimate the amount of information it was given to us in ANH that is severely lacking in TFA. A commonly brought up example is the conference room scene. It’s a masterful scene of how to do world building and exposition right. You have a bunch of men talking about the state of the galaxy, the goals of the Empire, the stakes of the Rebellion, etc, but made fun to watch by having the ominous presence of Darth Vader there picking up a fight with one Imperial and doing a memorable Force demonstration.

 

I have plenty of criticisms of TLJ. But I don't think critics do their arguments much of a service by extolling the virtues of the new Tomb Raider in comparison. Couldn't...I don't know...a better movie be used in comparison?

 

The information given to the audience in both TPM and ANH on multiple levels of story from visuals, characters to the most overt expository scenes and starting with the opening crawl are all there whereas TFA goes out of it's way to sidestep most of this to outright creating confusion from the opening crawl concerning the First Order, Republic and Resistance.

What's telling is that the backstory that was supposed to be in other media concerning the state of the galaxy for TFA was changed for TLJ. The First Order went from a covert organization that the well meaning but naive Republic didn't think was that powerful (and got surprised attacked) to a organization that was powerful for years and used that power while the now totally incompetent and inept Republic denied to themselves that anything was happening.

The First Order of TFA needed a superweapon because that was the best way to use their resources for a sneak attack. Sure they had various ships but the Republic had a massive fleet they could not match. In TLJ the SKB superweapon was now surplus to requirements. They had at least a fleet of massive fleet-killing Dreadnoughts, Snoke's Mega Super Star Destroyer, mobile Death Star canons and the like and apparently a near unlimited supply of everything to take over the galaxy in a few weeks. SKB basically allowed them to take over in weeks even after it was destroyed as opposed to months or a year otherwise.

Again the basics are what we've gone over. JJ was doing one ST and RJ was doing a different version of another ST that have some basic elements of similarity while telling entirely different stories. JJ's Luke was a Jedi Master in tune with the Force. RJ's was not a Jedi Master and cut off from the Force. Rey, Ren and the story of the First Order, Republic and Resistance area all different from one movie to the other.

Basically TFA and TLJ are in parallel universes to each other.

 

After reading a bit more about RJ’s prior projects and their reception, I’m beginning to think that what RJ did with TLJ was pretty much just what LFL wanted him to do. What they hired him to do, really.

 

Thank you for those examples. They’re good and help me to better understand your line of thinking and where TFA doesn’t do what ANH does.

Don’t you think the opening crawl & subsequent moments we have with both the FO and their actions on Jakku & the shots of the Resistance base later establish the simple concepts of good vs evil as opposing factions though? The opening crawl does say that the sinister FO has risen from the ashes of the Empire. It also tells us that there’s a group that opposes them. Most of the problems I find with this setup is not that it’s hard to understand but more so that it’s something that’s already been experienced.

I agree that the ST does expect all of its viewers to have some cursory knowledge of Star Wars to the extent that they know Luke Skywalker is someone of importance.

You’re spot on about the setup of Luke & his Force plot though. It’s Campbellian to perfection and it propels him and us with purpose via the false narrative of revenge initially, saving the princess, and becoming the Jedi that his father was. 3 clear goals to accomplish that all make sense to audiences.

Rey has no such purpose. Her Force plot is stranger and less focused than anything we’ve seen yet. For all of the criticism TLJ receives for “subverting” it almost feels like the setup of TFA was to subvert the insta-purpose given to previous heroes with Rey as some kind of writing excercise. It comes off like a “What if the hero didn’t meet a Jedi who told them their place in the story right away?” thought experiment. It’s a coming of age tale about choice and discovering who you truly are and who you can be coming out of adolescence but there might be reasons for why it’s so hard to think of any famous structural comparisons to this kind of setup for a main character beyond something like Alice Through the Looking Glass & one might be that telling a tale like that feels directionless.

It works better on serial TV shows like many Abrams was involved with (Lost for example) because there’s breathing room and mystery boxes to solve that keep the mind engaged about what’s going on but films don’t often rely on that as much since there’s less time overall.

Films typically present the hero with a goal that is easily understood and relatable to the audience for the protagonist within the first 30 pages of a script. TFA didn’t do that. Rey isn’t seeking revenge. She isn’t fighting for her home world. She wasn’t told she was the chosen one who will bring balance. A Jedi didn’t tell her that her father was once a great and powerful Jedi and that she can be too. She simlply moves from one modest goal of wanting to help someone to the next and those choices keep bringing her further and further into this Skywalker family drama. I’ve struggled to come up with a film comparison for her in this way. It’s truly difficult to think of a character who tries to do a few good things simply because they’re good things to do that then finds themselves in the middle of this epic assuming the role of hero simply because it’s the right thing to do. If the kid from the Neverending Story literally fell into the book and was the main character suddenly (I realize he sort of is anyway) then that would be the closest thing I can think of. I suppose Sandra Bullock’s character in Speed sort of just became a hero randomly as well but she was more supporting cast in a way for Keanu Reeves character there anyway. Even Katniss, who was thrust into the Hunger Games by a choice, is given a clear goal of winning it so that she doesn’t die & can get back to her sister, which then grows from there.

It’s part of the reason I was hoping she’d be a Kenobi in the end. I wanted the end to make me at least think that somehow destiny had brought her into this tale as the granddaughter of Kenobi versus the grandson of Anakin because short of that her protagonism does feel like she just stumbled into this story by a combination of sheer accident and morality. I’m not sure “It’s rarely been done in cinema” is a good enough motivation for that so far either.

 

I think you can also look at the BTS stuff to see why he was kept on when LFL fired so many other creators such as Trevorrow/Trank/Lord/Miller or forced reshoots on such as with Gareth Edwards. RJ seems to have been accommodating to whatever stuff the story group wanted to be put in TLJ including references to the Battlefront video games as well as KK's desire to have Leia demonstrate force power. Furthermore he let LFL in on the loop during the drafting of TLJ. In contrast miscommunication and creative differences seemed to have doomed L&M on Solo. So operating a more transparent production that was willing to do whatever the TPTB desired allowed RJ to be kept on to the point they gave him an entire trilogy afterwards.

 

Oh I was talking about why he was likely chosen in the first place.

 

You made some very good points in this post, Alliyah. I especially agree with you about the lack of Jedi and lightsaber duels. I really think a huge mistake was made in deciding to have no new Jedi in the ST. Instead of having Luke’s Jedi all killed or go bad between the trilogies, I think the filmmakers should have embraced what should have been one of their greatest assists: Jedi Knights. They didn’t need to have a hoarde of them. 6 or 8 would have been great. They didn’t even need to utilize all of them in this trilogy. The could have focused on two or three, and then used others in future stories in films or books.

These new Jedi would have provided new characters, including some non- skywalker Jedi for use in this trilogy and beyond. As you said, Jedi and lightsabers are “ insanely popular” parts of the Star Wars franchise, and it doesn’t seem logical to not include them. Yet, the filmmakers seem to have almost gone out of their way to avoid using jedi in the sequel trilogy by not really even showcasing Luke as a Jedi, let alone any new ones. There were, of course, no Jedi in Rogue One or ( I assume, as I didn’t see it), in Solo. So, I really don’t know why they didn’t include them in TFA and TLJ. Why not give the audience what they want to see? I know that I was really disappointed when I learned there would be no new Jedi in TFA. Then they made it worse in TLJ, by having Luke give up on the Jedi, and by not allowing him to train anyone, even Rey.

I also agree with you about the first Jedi temple being a letdown. I thought it was a wasted opportunity. When I heard that the first Jedi temple was going to be in the film, I was intrigued. I thought we were going to learn something new about the force or about the early Jedi or both. I thought maybe Luke had gone there to learn what he could to help avoid having Jedi go darkside, or how to bring back Jedi who were already lost to it, or to help defeat darksiders. Or, maybe he had learned some new skills that could help against the first order. I certainly never expected Luke to go there to die. And why there of all places? Why not a familiar, but still remote place, like dagobah? Or kenobi’s old hut on Tatooine? Why go to the island where the first Jedi temple was if he wanted to renounce the Force and have the Jedi die out? Doesn’t really make a lot of sense that he would choose Ahch-to. And it was very disappointing that there was nothing really special about the first Jedi temple, and that we didn’t learn anything from it about the Jedi or the force. It was definitely not what I was expecting, and not in a good way.

 

I can't speak for general audiences, but I agree this film is different from the other "dark" Star Wars entries. I didn't come out of it feeling horrified or sad and certainly not with any sense of catharsis. Somehow, despite all the terrible things that happen, the overwhelming impression for me was of a film that was drearily miserable rather than tragic. I think that has less to do with not knowing the end than with the narrative issues (which yes, I do harp on about) that tend to make everything seem rather inconsequential. It's the difference between a thunderstorm and a rainy day.

The bolded, though, is perhaps the best example of a "Signal from Fred" I can recall seeing in a film. It's actually rather funny if you look at it the right way.

 

You sort of learn more about the Force and Jedi in Rogue one with the introduction of Jedha which is way more epic the the first Jedi Templre and that makes me sad

 

The very thought that the people now in charge of the franchise are seemingly hell bent on eradicating the Jedi and the Force from the Star Wars Galaxy is an obscenely depressing thought for me. Even more odd when you consider that their cross franchise ads with Mickey Mouse show him in full PT Jedi regalia with a lightsaber. I also think there are plenty of people with the right idea here, we don't need legions of Jedi. With only 30 years, having up to 10 or 20 is still a modest effort and shows GROWTH, which is what sequels are supposed to be about. Too many writers are seemingly stuck with this misconception that if the Jedi are around, somehow the enemies of the Republic will just turn tail and run, because Jedi are just all powerful boring story killers. But that flies in the face of EVERYTHING else the saga and the expanded lore following it told us. We learned that Jedi, while unique and powerful in their own right, were flawed, fallible and could just as easily be killed as any other living being. They could be warm and caring, cold and aloof or zen and mysterious. It's almost as if Lucas had originally conceived of them as CHARACTERS, with all of the tics, strengths and weaknesses that any story character could possess and made sure to include that there were strict limits on what Jedi were capable of, in spite of their mysterious powers and strange weapons.

It annoys me further, because by that same token, having some band of jerks roaming around wearing all black and whipping out their EDGY red lightsabers roving around terrorizing the galaxy is never considered as having enemies that are presumably too powerful to beat. And yet the dark siders are given every advantage over their adversaries and should have no trouble rendering a plot moot. Their good counterparts are always conveniently wiped out or too indisposed to oppose them, they are ensconced comfortable in positions of inscrutable power with all the resources they could need to accomplish their goals and always manage to have a MASSIVE standing army at their beck and call. Which I suppose isn't surprising, since a lot of people in the writer's chair now were likely hardcore Vader/Empire fans in their youth, whose main takeaway from those films was black outfits and red swords are the kewlest, though I digress.

The Jedi have suffered more than 50 years of being hunted like criminals, exile, marginalization and slander and through it all, they've continued to try and be the heroes the Galaxy needed them to be. They've EARNED their comeback and return to the sun at this point and the thought that they may NEVER get it makes me weep for the future of the Star Wars galaxy

 

@Ender_and_Bean On another thread some of us were discussing whether a Star Trek-style alternative universe scenario could work as IX's big revelation. Rey would then turn out to be a sort of dimensionally-displaced person from the other timeline, in which she did have a close connection of some kind to Luke (daughter, niece, pupil, whatever). This would explain the "Rey related" hints, some of her misconceptions, and of course her strange sense of not really belonging in the story.

Not that we suppose this is what they're actually planning, it's more a case of "What would you do if you were JJ"?

 

Criticism of the ST will increase if their isn’t any surprise related to Rey yet.

One lineage theory that I was surprised never had much legs for people (pardon the pun) was her being the granddaughter of Vader from a time period after ROTS where Vader was perhaps on Jakku as part of Sidious planning there where Anakin fell in love again briefly with some other beautiful brunette junker there he spotted who we’d learn was later Rey’s grandmother. This would have meant that Luke & Leia would have had a half sibling in the galaxy for a time. The specifics would need to be ironed out and explored in a Vader anthology film but somehow their offspring falls on hard times. meets some other person and they have Rey but the Force awakens in Rey in a way that’s reminiscent of the good in Anakin opposite Ben Solo who is taking up the worst of him.

This would tie into the talk of Lucas when he initially mentioned the grandkids of Vader but would make them cousins. Only as ones that weren’t cousins as a result of her being Luke’s. By being less in the other’s lives at any one point it would make their Reylo interests in each other a little more innocent as cousins who had never actually met before and would better explain how Luke may not learn the truth about her as his niece opposite Ben as his nephew until he’s joined the Force ghost world.

Introducing a second mate for Vader on Jakku could have some creepy similarities between Ben & Rey anyway with post ROTS Anakin perhaps not being quite as romantic with this new woman as he once was Padme while being on Jakku, adding more layers to Vader’s life overall. I realize it’s creepy to imagine Vader having intercourse with someone else after he’s been burned and been in the suit but do we really believe he never once met anyone he was attracted to and didn’t have intercourse again for the rest of his life after Padme died?

It would take work in a Vader anthology film to explain obviously but for IX it would only need to setup the broad strokes of Vader spending time on Jakku and fathering another child there. This time out of wedlock.

 

I'd actually criticise the ST more if Rey had a surprise reveal.

Alright, so TFA had a bunch of hints that Rey had some mysterious backstory, all those flashbacks and visions, along the fundamental reason of not giving her a full name. For example, with Finn, his lack of a full name is a link back to his Stormtrooper origins, he lost his original family, so is now just Finn (A name that represents his freedom given by Poe). But Rey is just... Rey. It feels odd not to define her properly, so it seemed like a hint to something bigger.

Then TLJ came along, and suddenly the hints meant nothing. There was no parentage reveal, Rey's parents were nothing all along. That's not to say this 'reveal' wasn't important, but it's framed very oddly up against all those hints and guesses laid down by TFA. It's also a rather awkward scene, as it really feels like something Rey should have picked up on already, given all that talk with Maz about how 'they're never coming back'. And it feels like Rey wants her parents to be special, which is an awkward meta layer. Rey is put in the place of audience, left guessing around for the parentage, and let down when it's nothing.

So, TFA set up a mystery, TLJ resolved, maybe not satisfactorily given the clues, but resolved. Rey's parents weren't important, it was all feint. That story's done.

But to go back and make her parents actually mean something in EP IX would completely ruin TLJ's attempt to resolve this plot. It would show exactly how little planning and coordination these films really have, if they can't agree on basic backstory for the protagonist. This back and forth parentage issue should be over now, like Snoke, like Luke, they're never coming back, and I find this wild speculation that they'll all return in IX just baffling.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also Vader having another child would be as bad as making Obi-Wan a father. For one thing, Anakin was completely wrecked by the death of Padme, he was reduced to nothing after her death. She was his biggest love in life, and the prime motivation to his fall to the dark side. To imagine he could 'move on' while as Vader is nonsense. For one thing, how ridiculous would it look to see Darth Vader, in the full mask and cape, falling in love?

For another, he likely lost his... ahem... reproductive capabilities... on Mustafar, when his entire body caught on fire. Add the lack of 3 limbs, and you have one very awkward bedroom scene.

(Besides, as TLJ taught us: Headcanons about future films are wrong, and should be discouraged, lest they make you 'hater')