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Topic:
There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
12/12/07 6:54pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Yet our OT Jedi heroes become tainted, tarnished by the plot line of the PT. Their actions, when taken in the sterile context of an OT only world, are essentially noble. Yet when the PT plot is folded into the fray, the actions of Ben and Yoda are suspect at best, manipulative at the worst.
Ben distorts the truth (or llies) about Luke's father's downfall, his honor and his death. Ben interprets what Anakin's wished might have been (or just plain lies) to Luke about Anakin wanting his son to have his light saber. Ben separates the Jedi Anakin from the Sith Vader, creating two distinct persona, ultimately confusing Luke (by Bespin) in the process. Ben also paints the Jedi order as flawless and noble, not the clouded entity that fails to see the rise of the Sith or the birth of the Chosen One.
The OT Yoda (with a PT past) merely covers up the truth, speaking mostly of Vader and little of Anakin. When Anakin is eventually mentioned by Yoda, it is usually in terms of a troubled and rebellious Jedi. Still, Yoda does not openly tell Luke that Vader and Anakin are one and the same, which is deceptive and essentially manipulative. "Confront Vader you must," he tells Luke. Why is not exactly part of the equation, leaving Luke at a severe disadvantage in planning his way ahead.
In the context of the OT, these actions are largely judged as wise and necessary. When we witness the Jedi slide in the PT, the actions of our two surviving Jedi seem more manipulative and biased than noble and wise.
No matter, as Luke learns important lessons form our fault-laden Jedi masters, and listens to the advice of the living force. This 'advice' runs contrary to the wisdom of Yoda or Ben, but is truer and nobler than anything our Jedi masters could have offered.
Why? Perhaps QGJ made an appreciable impact upon Ben and Yoda. But this much is certain -- Luke grasps the living force better than anyone since QGJ, and uses it to make sense of the world around him, to sense and 'reach' the good man Anakin, to reject the evil offer of the Emperor and choose values over self -- something his father failed to do those many years ago.
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“It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.”
~ Joseph Campbell
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/12/07 7:23pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
12/12/07 7:40pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Obi-Chron posted:
Ben distorts the truth (or llies) about Luke's father's downfall, his honor and his death. Ben interprets what Anakin's wished might have been (or just plain lies) to Luke about Anakin wanting his son to have his light saber. Ben separates the Jedi Anakin from the Sith Vader, creating two distinct persona, ultimately confusing Luke (by Bespin) in the process. Ben also paints the Jedi order as flawless and noble, not the clouded entity that fails to see the rise of the Sith or the birth of the Chosen One.
The Jedi Order was noble. The two distinct persona view is also one shared by Vader and the Emperor given how they both speak of Anakin Skywalker in the third-person, so I don't know that he's wrong to do so as well. Luke proves that it's ultimately a flawed view in terms of Vader, but it's not one exclusive to the Jedi. As for the lightsaber, it was a lie, but Anakin would likely have wanted him to have it.
Obi-Chron posted:
The OT Yoda (with a PT past) merely covers up the truth, speaking mostly of Vader and little of Anakin. When Anakin is eventually mentioned by Yoda, it is usually in terms of a troubled and rebellious Jedi. Still, Yoda does not openly tell Luke that Vader and Anakin are one and the same, which is deceptive and essentially manipulative. "Confront Vader you must," he tells Luke. Why is not exactly part of the equation, leaving Luke at a severe disadvantage in planning his way ahead.
Yoda is right. Anakin was a very troubled and rebellious Jedi. He doesn't tell Luke, but he also doesn't deny it when confronted by Luke. As for confronting Vader, Yoda is right. Luke has to do it if he's going to overcome his anger and fear.
Obi-Chron posted:
In the context of the OT, these actions are largely judged as wise and necessary. When we witness the Jedi slide in the PT, the actions of our two surviving Jedi seem more manipulative and biased than noble and wise.
The OT Jedi are still noble and wise. Lucas's failed attempt to ruin the Jedi(by trying to make them 'corrupted') doesn't change that.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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DT421
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
12/13/07 3:22am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
12/13/07 3:26am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DT421
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Obi-Chron posted:
Yet our OT Jedi heroes become tainted, tarnished by the plot line of the PT. Their actions, when taken in the sterile context of an OT only world, are essentially noble. Yet when the PT plot is folded into the fray, the actions of Ben and Yoda are suspect at best, manipulative at the worst.
That’s funny, because having seen the downfall of the Jedi in the PT and why they fell, I have a strong feeling of the Jedi redeeming themselves in the OT and in fact, even more “noble”.
Obi-Chron posted:
Ben distorts the truth (or llies) about Luke's father's downfall, his honor and his death. Ben interprets what Anakin's wished might have been (or just plain lies) to Luke about Anakin wanting his son to have his light saber. Ben separates the Jedi Anakin from the Sith Vader, creating two distinct persona, ultimately confusing Luke (by Bespin) in the process. Ben also paints the Jedi order as flawless and noble, not the clouded entity that fails to see the rise of the Sith or the birth of the Chosen One.
Ben simply fed Luke what needed to be fed to him, as Luke hadn’t yet begun any Jedi training, of any sort. It’s part of teaching Luke to be intuitive, rather than have everything spoon fed to him. It would have done Luke absolutely no good, whatsoever, to have told him that his father was still alive, especially if you’re trying to teach him the pitfalls of attachment – which, as we witnessed, Luke almost gave into.
Obi-Chron posted:
The OT Yoda (with a PT past) merely covers up the truth, speaking mostly of Vader and little of Anakin. When Anakin is eventually mentioned by Yoda, it is usually in terms of a troubled and rebellious Jedi. Still, Yoda does not openly tell Luke that Vader and Anakin are one and the same, which is deceptive and essentially manipulative. "Confront Vader you must," he tells Luke. Why is not exactly part of the equation, leaving Luke at a severe disadvantage in planning his way ahead.
It isn’t deceptive at all. The man that is Luke’s father is Darth Vader – twisted and evil. He is not Anakin – the once good man. Luke’s father is being spoken to him in “In the moment” terms. After all, when Luke confronts Vader, he has to deal with who his father is at that moment – not what he once was, or could be.
Planning? The Jedi train Luke to become a Jedi, also knowing that his destiny is to become a Jedi, while facing Vader. It’s Luke’s trial. And we see it took Luke having compassion for the evil man that his father is, in order to pass that test. The same test, in principle, that he failed in the cave.
Obi-Chron posted:
In the context of the OT, these actions are largely judged as wise and necessary. When we witness the Jedi slide in the PT, the actions of our two surviving Jedi seem more manipulative and biased than noble and wise.
In your opinion. I’m of the opinion that they’ve actually gained all the wisdom they’ll ever need, by learning from their failures in the PT.
Obi-Chron posted:
No matter, as Luke learns important lessons form our fault-laden Jedi masters, and listens to the advice of the living force. This 'advice' runs contrary to the wisdom of Yoda or Ben, but is truer and nobler than anything our Jedi masters could have offered.
Luke was taught to use his insight, search out with his feelings, conquer his fears (To include fearing the loss of attachment) and the dangers and seductiveness of the Dark Side.
The Jedi Masters were right on every account, while Luke made a few mistakes based upon the very fears that the Jedi told him to be mindful of.
If you can elaborate more on this last point, I would appreciate it. Because as it stands, I’d say you were way off.
Obi-Chron posted:
Why? Perhaps QGJ made an appreciable impact upon Ben and Yoda. But this much is certain -- Luke grasps the living force better than anyone since QGJ, and uses it to make sense of the world around him, to sense and 'reach' the good man Anakin, to reject the evil offer of the Emperor and choose values over self -- something his father failed to do those many years ago.
Luke didn’t grasp the Living Force, until the moment he threw his Lightsaber down, rather than strike his father down. He never would have reached that point, had it not been for the tutelage of his Jedi Masters.
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rhonderoo 
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All_Powerful_Jedi
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/16/07 8:26pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
12/16/07 8:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
All_Powerful_Jedi
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Ah, the good ole days...
I just watched the Star Wars: The Legacy Revealed, which was produced in association with LucasFilm. Clev posted about it when it originally aired, but this is new news to me.
Anyway, regardless of how much debate and the many angles you can look at it, the prevailing perspective is basically what Dr. John C Lyden was saying. Luke comes up with a third option despite what the Jedi and Sith advised him to do.
While you can interpret this film differently, as you can interpret any film differently, this is the righter, more correct interpretation and is the prevailing belief that is reflected in documentaries such as The Legacy Revealed.
The Jedi voice their opinions regarding destroying the Sith in ROTS when Luke isn't even born yet. They voice those same opinions again to Luke later on. There is consistency in their belief that Vader destroyed Anakin. There is no moment when their opinions change, other than when Obi-Wan gives up on Anakin ENTIRELY at the end of ROTS. Only Padme believes and that belief dies with her until Luke picks up on it intuitively, DESPITE what Obi-Wan and Yoda tell him.
The death of Anakin to Obi-Wan is such a crucial plot point, especially in ROTS. Yoda believes Anakin is dead the VERY SECOND he realizes he turned. Obi-Wan denies it at first until Anakin attacks Padme (and Luke and Leia within) and nearly kills his family. This is how Obi-Wan sees Anakin until Luke redeems him and Anakin saves his family.
The saga is about the Skywalker family, with Anakin as the patriarch and Luke as the rebellious son who restores his family's honor. It's about how this family, and ONLY this family, can believe in their father.
That's not to say it's all blood. I don't think Star Wars is coming down on adoption or close non-blood relationships by any means (hell, Lucas has 3 adopted kids). But, the story is about this family and how they become separated and destroy the galaxy, then reunite and save it.
Obi-Wan clearly lets his logical self overtake his emotional self and lets go of Anakin in ROTS. It's in every aspect from the script to screen. He lets Anakin burn to death and runs and hides so Luke can fight another day. Luke and Leia can't let go like Obi-Wan, because of that intangible, spiritual link they have with their father. Both Luke and Leia have their moments of disgust with Vader, but ultimately find that there is hope when no one else could.
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Rossa83
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/17/07 6:10am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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When Padme tells OBW that there is still good in him (Anakin), OBW appears to be in deep thought. He seems to think about it closely, and IMHO, he also believes it. Yoda, I think, is a different story. He didn't have as close a relationship with Anakin as OBW. From his experience, once you step down the path of the dark-side, forever it will decide your destiny. After 900 years, what could possibly make him change his mind? Perhaps OBW...
However, I still believe that everything OBW did was to guide Luke to think for his own. To feel. Therefore I believe that the Jedi were guiding Luke to discover for himself what he should do, and implicitly I think that was to redeem Anakin... 
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2Cleva
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
12/21/07 10:25am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I had to come home for the holidays.
APJ - yeah, that was icing on the cake for me.
Rossa83 - I agree that the Jedi wanted Luke to think for himself and trust his feelings. Its just they wanted him to trust his feelings like all Jedi have been trained to do and see the logic in the situation. Luke, however, went off rules that are emotional and thats something the Jedi didn't understand or agree with.
Luke attempting to save his father is looked at as the same as Luke rushing to Bespin to save his friends - they feel its based on the emotional attachment instead of letting them go and focusing on what the Force is saying. They don't get that the Force is telling Luke something different than what it told them.
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Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.
Who's the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him?
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CannibalFoodfight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
12/21/07 11:17am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I think it's possible that everything fell together a certain way because the force wanted it that way. Luke wasn't raised by Ben or Yoda because he is supposed to acknowledge his emotions because that is part of the force. Maybe part of balance in the force is having jedi not deny their emotions but learn to over come the negative aspects of emotion. So in Luke being a normal, emotion feeling person and also a jedi he learned that and taught it to the next wave of jedi that came after him.
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"A severed foot is the perfect stocking stuffer."
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/22/07 11:04am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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All_Powerful_Jedi posted:
Ah, the good ole days...
I just watched the Star Wars: The Legacy Revealed, which was produced in association with LucasFilm. Clev posted about it when it originally aired, but this is new news to me.
Anyway, regardless of how much debate and the many angles you can look at it, the prevailing perspective is basically what Dr. John C Lyden was saying. Luke comes up with a third option despite what the Jedi and Sith advised him to do.
While you can interpret this film differently, as you can interpret any film differently, this is the righter, more correct interpretation and is the prevailing belief that is reflected in documentaries such as The Legacy Revealed.
The Jedi voice their opinions regarding destroying the Sith in ROTS when Luke isn't even born yet. They voice those same opinions again to Luke later on. There is consistency in their belief that Vader destroyed Anakin. There is no moment when their opinions change, other than when Obi-Wan gives up on Anakin ENTIRELY at the end of ROTS. Only Padme believes and that belief dies with her until Luke picks up on it intuitively, DESPITE what Obi-Wan and Yoda tell him.
The death of Anakin to Obi-Wan is such a crucial plot point, especially in ROTS. Yoda believes Anakin is dead the VERY SECOND he realizes he turned. Obi-Wan denies it at first until Anakin attacks Padme (and Luke and Leia within) and nearly kills his family. This is how Obi-Wan sees Anakin until Luke redeems him and Anakin saves his family.
The saga is about the Skywalker family, with Anakin as the patriarch and Luke as the rebellious son who restores his family's honor. It's about how this family, and ONLY this family, can believe in their father.
That's not to say it's all blood. I don't think Star Wars is coming down on adoption or close non-blood relationships by any means (hell, Lucas has 3 adopted kids). But, the story is about this family and how they become separated and destroy the galaxy, then reunite and save it.
Obi-Wan clearly lets his logical self overtake his emotional self and lets go of Anakin in ROTS. It's in every aspect from the script to screen. He lets Anakin burn to death and runs and hides so Luke can fight another day. Luke and Leia can't let go like Obi-Wan, because of that intangible, spiritual link they have with their father. Both Luke and Leia have their moments of disgust with Vader, but ultimately find that there is hope when no one else could.
QFT. This is where the story and works from. Obi-wan did want Luke to redeem his father, but it was more for his actions than make him become good again. Luke finds the alternitive which winds up being win-win for everyone. Anakin still dies, but he gets to do so as a good man, rather than as a Sith.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/22/07 4:54pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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"The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film." --George Lucas
Of course, Lucas now says Anakin wasn't redeemed so I don't know what his word is worth.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: Forum Feud Winner
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 10:26am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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2Cleva posted:
I had to come home for the holidays.
2Cleva posted:
They don't get that the Force is telling Luke something different than what it told them.
Obi-Wan IS the Force.
Of course he gets it.
This is the part you guys don't get...
Happy hols!
-JR
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"Love is the answer to the darkness."
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 10:29am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
"The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film." --George Lucas
Of course, Lucas now says Anakin wasn't redeemed so I don't know what his word is worth.
Redemption has more than one meaning. Obi-wan wants Luke to do what Anakin failed to do, but instead, Luke finds a way to bring his father back from the darkness. But he can never make up for all of his crimes. He can only be a good man and stop the horror.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/23/07 12:51pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Redeemed has many meanings but Ben wanting him to "become a Jedi and redeem his father" is incompatible with the notion that Ben thinks the only option is to kill Vader. The scripts do have him saying he tried to bring Vader back but failed, though that could simply be Ben once again preparing Luke for the possibility that he may have to kill Vader.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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DT421
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 4:00am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Yoda and Ben only concentrate on Luke. Vader/Anakin isn't important.
Yoda and Ben only know that they have to train Luke to become a Jedi, while facing Vader.
Yoda and Ben are only allowing their actions to be dictated by the Force and by doing what they feel is "right".
Yoda and Ben are teaching Luke to do the same. Again, Vader/Anakin isn't important.
Yoda and Ben have no expectations of whether or not Luke's father can be redeemed. That is looking toward the future. Their minds are on where they are and what they are doing. And that is to prepare Luke to become a Jedi - to help Luke fulfill his destiny.
Yoda and Ben simply place there faith in what the Force is "telling" them. It goes no further than that from them.
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rhonderoo
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2Cleva
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 8:22am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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OBIWAN-JR posted:
2Cleva posted:
They don't get that the Force is telling Luke something different than what it told them.
Obi-Wan IS the Force.
Of course he gets it.
This is the part you guys don't get...
Obi-Wan is no more the Force than the rocks Luke was lifting on Dagobah. The Force is everywhere - that does not mean he knows all because he is one with the Force. Just as Qui-Qon didn't know all, same as Yoda.
Thats the part where you're wrong.
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Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.
Who's the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him?
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2Cleva
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 11:26am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Redeemed has many meanings but Ben wanting him to "become a Jedi and redeem his father" is incompatible with the notion that Ben thinks the only option is to kill Vader. The scripts do have him saying he tried to bring Vader back but failed, though that could simply be Ben once again preparing Luke for the possibility that he may have to kill Vader.
Incorrect.
posted:
Redeem - to buy or pay off; clear by payment; to discharge or fulfill (a pledge, promise, etc.; to make up for; make amends for; offset (some fault, shortcoming, etc.): His bravery redeemed his youthful idleness.
Redeem at Dictionary.com
Plainly put - the Jedi wanted Luke to fulfill the prophecy of destroying the Sith that Anakin had failed at. Like Obi-Wan said in ROTS - he was to destroy them, not become one of them. Since he failed, the hope was Luke or Leia would complete that mission, making up for Anakin's mistakes - ie redeeming him.
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Who's the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him?
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