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Topic:
There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/27/07 11:40am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Which is irrelevant because he didn't have enough training to kill Palpatine and yet Yoda believed he required no more training. This makes it clear that Yoda didn't think that overcoming Palpatine with martial might was how Luke would deal with him.
There was no more training, because Yoda cannot teach him. That's why Lucas created Yoda in the first place, instead of having Obi-wan's ghost do the teaching. And since Luke left before he could get that training and the opportunity is on the horizon, Luke must now face his father and then Palpatine.
I agree, but that ignores the fact that Luke can't kill Palpatine and yet you say that Yoda feels that Luke has enough training to kill the Emperor. Yoda would know that Luke wouldn't be able to defeat a Sith that even Yoda himself failed to kill.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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Darth_Drachonus
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
12/27/07 4:38pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
darth-sinister posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Which is irrelevant because he didn't have enough training to kill Palpatine and yet Yoda believed he required no more training. This makes it clear that Yoda didn't think that overcoming Palpatine with martial might was how Luke would deal with him.
There was no more training, because Yoda cannot teach him. That's why Lucas created Yoda in the first place, instead of having Obi-wan's ghost do the teaching. And since Luke left before he could get that training and the opportunity is on the horizon, Luke must now face his father and then Palpatine.
I agree, but that ignores the fact that Luke can't kill Palpatine and yet you say that Yoda feels that Luke has enough training to kill the Emperor. Yoda would know that Luke wouldn't be able to defeat a Sith that even Yoda himself failed to kill.
Perhaps at this point, Yoda peered into the future and saw one possiblity (Anakin's Rise and Return), consulted the Force, and allowed things to play out hoping for that possible future, Luke already knew the very very basic basics, and knew there was still good in Vader..long shot? Sure, Grasping at straws am I? possibly, but it's a valid theory.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
12/27/07 4:46pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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That's my thought. I'm sure Yoda wasn't sure what would happen, but he had faith that if Luke trusted in the Force that someway the Sith would be destroyed and balance would be restored.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
12/28/07 5:41pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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When Luke leaves Dagobah in TESB to rescue his friends, force ghost Ben tells Yoda: "That boy is our last hope." Yoda replies: "No. There is another." Yoda could just as easily be talking about Anakin here when we all assume that he means Leia (after the ROTJ death bed revelation).
Leia is the 'other' Skywalker, sure, but just for fun -- could Anakin be Yoda's 'other' hope mentioned to Ben on Dagobah? If EPI is ANH, then the implication is that there once was (or perhaps still 'is') an OLDer hope. We learn in the PT that Anakin indeed represented tremendous hope as the chosen one, a hope lost once he turned to the dark side.
In the OT Yoda never tells Luke he must kill Vader or destroy his father -- only Ben does this. Yoda simply tells Luke that he must "confront" Vader. Could the wise little green sage be playing match maker between the new Jedi Luke and the old Jedi Anakin?
Otherwise, why wasn't Leia being trained? After all, she was already a sworn member of the alliance, and her introduction to the ways of the force could have proved quite useful to the cause -- plus it would have totally rocked to witness Leia wielding a saber in ROTJ!
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“It is by going down into the abyss that we recover the treasures of life. Where you stumble, there lies your treasure.”
~ Joseph Campbell
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DT421
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 12:37am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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darth-sinister posted:
Having compassion does not mean that they cannot kill. The Jedi kill all the time and unless they allow anger and hate into their hearts, they will never have problems taking the life of a living being. So long as they do not give into their feelings, they can take as many lives as necessary.
Having compassion means not killing pretty much most of the time. The only justifiable way to compassionately kill is in defense of something that can’t defend itself – while having the Force as your ally. Perfect examples of this:
Ben helping Luke to destroy DS1 – out of compassion and in defense of Yavin and the Rebels.
Anakin killing the Emperor - out of compassion and in defense of Luke.
The Jedi were killing in the PT out of sense of duty, not compassion.
It took the Jedi of the OT to train a boy to show compassion in the face of evil, to become a Jedi.
darth-sinister posted:
Not really. Luke aboard the DS II was doing the same thing in the cave. What stops him is the realization that his vision in the cave was coming true. He doesn't turn because he thinks more logically than emotionally.
That’s fine to a certain point, but if you wish to imply that he didn’t listen to what he felt was “right” and wasn’t listening to the Force at all, then I disagree with you.
darth-sinister posted:
Uh, the Force wants the Sith to be destroyed just as the Jedi want it. That's where the prophecy comes from. All the Jedi are doing is using a subsitute, since Anakin ****** up. And in the end, the Sith still wind up dying. Anakin kills Sidious and then dies from injuries inflicted by Palpatine. All Luke wound up doing was making sure that his father dies as a good man, not an evil one.
Anakin ****ed up, because the Jedi of the PT were ****ed up. What the Force is doing is balancing itself, because the Jedi of the PT took it out of whack, just as much as Sidious did.
Once the Jedi righted themselves after 20 years of reflection, the Sith met their demise without the Jedi killing a single one of them.
There wasn’t going to be any balance, until the Jedi finally took care of their side of the house.
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rhonderoo 
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: Forum Feud Winner
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
12/30/07 11:45am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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2Cleva posted:
Darth Sinister posted:
So, OBIWAN-JR isn't wrong there. But he is in that Obi-wan would know what happens.
Correct. Thats what I meant. I'm rusty here.
Well, of course I disagree. 
I have much to add here, but unfortunately not the time today. I shall return tomorrow with some thoughts.
-JR 
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Obi-Chron
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
12/30/07 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
12/30/07 3:29pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
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This will be interesting! I await JR's reply with baited (and bad) breath!
DJK edit: Let's not.
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~ Joseph Campbell
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
1/1 7:50am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Obi-Chron posted:
When Luke leaves Dagobah in TESB to rescue his friends, force ghost Ben tells Yoda: "That boy is our last hope." Yoda replies: "No. There is another." Yoda could just as easily be talking about Anakin here when we all assume that he means Leia (after the ROTJ death bed revelation).
Leia is the 'other' Skywalker, sure, but just for fun -- could Anakin be Yoda's 'other' hope mentioned to Ben on Dagobah? If EPI is ANH, then the implication is that there once was (or perhaps still 'is') an OLDer hope. We learn in the PT that Anakin indeed represented tremendous hope as the chosen one, a hope lost once he turned to the dark side.
But after what occured in ROTS, we would know that Yoda is NOT referring to Anakin as the other hope. He told Obi-wan, "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader". Plus, he never expected Vader to reveal his identity to Luke which is another indication that Yoda doesn't see any indication that Vader will give up the Dark Side and fulfill the prophecy.
Obi-Chron posted:
In the OT Yoda never tells Luke he must kill Vader or destroy his father -- only Ben does this. Yoda simply tells Luke that he must "confront" Vader. Could the wise little green sage be playing match maker between the new Jedi Luke and the old Jedi Anakin?
No, because Yoda never told Obi-wan to kill Vader either but he implied it by saying "Destroy the Sith, we must." Obi-wan knew it meant he had to kill Vader which is why he refused and wants to kill the Emperor instead. Its also why Yoda wants Luke to do what Obi-wan failed to accomplished on Mustafar which is to kill Darth Vader.
Obi-Chron posted:
Otherwise, why wasn't Leia being trained? After all, she was already a sworn member of the alliance, and her introduction to the ways of the force could have proved quite useful to the cause -- plus it would have totally rocked to witness Leia wielding a saber in ROTJ!
By then, Yoda has died and Obi-wan is already dead so there was noone left alive to train Leia.
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: Forum Feud Winner
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/2 12:47pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Kenobi's comment to Yoda is exactly right in the moment that he makes it.
Luke IS the only hope, in and of that moment, but Obi-Wan's comment is designed to provoke a response; a reaction from Yoda that Leia is a part of this.
You have to remember that Kenobi IS the Force.
Therefore he is a part of the eternal realm.
OUTSIDE the temporal realm.
Where there is NO such thing as time.
Ergo, everything IS happening, HAS happened, and WILL happen ALL AT ONCE!
However, Yoda is not wrong when he states that 'always in motion is the future'.
Nothing is pre-destined.
It is all still about choice.
Both Luke and Anakin still have choices to make.
Even though they have already made the choice.
Kenobi knows this.
Which is why he KNOWS that Anakin still has a chance to redeem himself.
That choice is still open to him because it is still a Will of the Force.
And Kenobi IS the Force...
-JR
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/2 3:08pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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OBIWAN-JR posted:
Nothing is pre-destined.
It is all still about choice.
Both Luke and Anakin still have choices to make.
Even though they have already made the choice.
You're contradicting yourself and sounding like The Matrix. 
Also, Force Ghosts are not equivalent to the Force.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
1/4 7:13am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I dont think they believed he could come back from the Dark Side, but he proved them wrong.
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Time is a great teacher, pity it kills all of its students.
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: Forum Feud Winner
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/4 9:53am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
1/4 9:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
OBIWAN-JR
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
You're contradicting yourself and sounding like The Matrix.
Of course.
It IS contradictory.
That is the Divine Dichotomy.
More on this tomorrow.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Also, Force Ghosts are not equivalent to the Force.
They are according to Lucas:
George Lucas posted:
"Yes. All the actors except Alec Guinness. We may use his voice as The Force -- I don't know."
-- Rolling Stone interview, 1977
Master Yoda posted:
Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force.
-- Revenge of the Sith, 2005
Yoda is also referred to as conversing with the Force in the ROTS novel, when he is communicating with Qui-Gon. Lucas line-edited the novelisation.
Everyone/thing transforms into the Force when they/it 'die'.
Death is a natural part of LIFE.
LIFE creates the Force and makes it grow.
The difference with the Jedi is that they can retain their identity when they 'die' and transform into the Force.
-JR
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/5 1:13pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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OBIWAN-JR posted:
Master Yoda posted:
Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force.
-- Revenge of the Sith, 2005
Yoda is not talking about Force ghosts there. He's talking about the deaths of Muggles or Jedi without the Force ghost ability. The Force ghosts are not "dead" in that sense.
Lucas: "The big surprise is that Ben doesn't die(...)"
Also, Yoda in the film does not refer to Qui-Gon as "the Force", but rather as "one who has returned from the netherworld of the Force".
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: Forum Feud Winner
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/7 5:21am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
1/7 5:23am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
OBIWAN-JR
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Yoda is not talking about Force ghosts there. He's talking about the deaths of Muggles or Jedi without the Force ghost ability.
Okay, Arawn, two things:
1. How do you KNOW he's not? He certainly doesn't state it.
2. Are you saying that Jedi who become one with the Force do NOT transform into the Force...?
Arawn_Fenn posted:
The Force ghosts are not "dead" in that sense.
I hear what you're saying, but when Kenobi becomes one, his MORTAL life still ends; in the temporal world he is effectively 'dead'.
George Lucas posted:
"The big surprise is that Ben doesn't die(...)"
Doesn't die, in the sense that he is still able to commune with the temporal world, but surely we can both agree that his mortal life has ended...?
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Also, Yoda in the film does not refer to Qui-Gon as "the Force", but rather as "one who has returned from the netherworld of the Force".
Okay, so Padme CAN transform into the Force, but Qui-Gon is NOT the Force; he has NOT transformed into the Force (with an ability to retain his identity and still commune with the temporal world)....is that what you're saying...?
-JR
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/7 10:01pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
1/7 10:04pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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OBIWAN-JR posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Yoda is not talking about Force ghosts there. He's talking about the deaths of Muggles or Jedi without the Force ghost ability.
Okay, Arawn, two things:
1. How do you KNOW he's not? He certainly doesn't state it.
2. Are you saying that Jedi who become one with the Force do NOT transform into the Force...?
1. Common sense. Yoda correctly presumes that Anakin does not have any loved ones who know how to become Force ghosts.
2. The phrase "one with the Force" has been used frequently in the EU to refer to normal deaths: the deaths of Muggles or Jedi without the Force ghost ability. So I don't see a distinction between the two phrases. The only source I know of which refers to Force ghosts as "one with the Force" is the ROTS novel.
If Qui-Gon "is" the Force, then he is not actually Qui-Gon, but instead it's the Force communicating for some reason through an interactive simulacrum which sounds like Qui-Gon. And I just don't think that's what's happening.
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