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Topic:
There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/9 12:32pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Obi-Wan, and Yoda likely had moments when they feel it is possible for Anakin to return as Humans. But later, seeing as both were in communication with Qui-Gon and he was one with the force, thus likely knew of Darth Vader's conflict which would be reflected in the force (Light v. dark), and eventually both became one with the force themselves...I would say yes, all of them knew that Anakin would have a final choice because he was after all, the chosen one. Luke could not fulfill that role due to having had two parents. So, yeah, once they were all one with the force, I would say they knew very well he could choose to bring balance and since the dark side is imbalance, they knew he would have to come back from the dark side if he made the right choice. He did make the right choice, but I am not sure anyone except Anakin would know for certain which choice he would make until he actually made it. Luke (with help from Obi/Qui/Yoda) served as a channel to help propel the choice, but Anakin would have had to make it anyway. Since he would come to see Sidious for what he was, I think his choice was inevitable in the end. Could yoda/qui/obi reach Anakin? In the films, that is up to everyone to decide for themselves, but I figure in that moment in ROTJ when he was looking between Luke and Sidious, all three were shouting out their stilted euphemisms: 'I'll not leave you' - Obi; 'chosen you may be, but what will you chose?' yoda and Qui-Gon, 'Dude, Sidious is a loser, is there really a choice?'
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/10 12:10pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Vader had recognized Sidious for what he was for 18 years though. He simply enjoyed having the power and eventually felt he couldn't defy his master's will. It was hardly inevitable. Vader needed Luke to make him see that there's always a choice.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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darth_calvin
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
1/15 1:23pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Hey guys - haven’t been here for a while. Good to see the thread still trudging along.
DT -
Having compassion means not killing pretty much most of the time. The only justifiable way to compassionately kill is in defense of something that can’t defend itself – while having the Force as your ally. Perfect examples of this:
Ben helping Luke to destroy DS1 – out of compassion and in defense of Yavin and the Rebels.
Anakin killing the Emperor - out of compassion and in defense of Luke.
By your own reason here then it would be alright for Luke to kill Vader and Palps because it is in defense of the entire galaxy and the countless lives that would be lost to the death star.
Not even the force knows if Anakin will make the right choice when presented with it again. If he doesn't (and there is every reason to believe that he won't), then Luke needs to be prepared to end their reign. Ben and Yoda know that Luke might have to kill Vader. The force will help him determine that when the time comes.
Master Starwalker - Just to clarify, Luke is not helpless before the emperor. The amount of Luke’s training is completely irrelevant as are his technical skills. The only thing that matters is his ability to listen to the force and act on its behalf. As long as it is on his side, he is completely capable of defeating Palps. That is shown over and over in the saga with the underdogs overcoming great odds to succeed.
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To those who'd ground me take a message back from me. Tell them how I am defying gravity. I'm flying high defying gravity.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/15 1:51pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I'm just speaking that in terms of combat he was helpless. Luke overcame the Emperor, he just did it by trusting in the Force and setting an example for his father rather than through physical might.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/15 3:00pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I don't think that the jedi believe that Anakin could come back from the dark side, at least it did not seem that way.
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Hi, I come here in peace.
Why so serious?
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darth_calvin
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
1/16 9:44am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I'm just speaking that in terms of combat he was helpless. Luke overcame the Emperor, he just did it by trusting in the Force and setting an example for his father rather than through physical might.
But, just to be clear, he could have beaten the emperor through physical might as well, had that been necessary. Obiwan wasn't as skilled as Maul when he killed him, but he was able to do it with the help of the force. Luke could have done the same thing against Papls. My point is, Ben and Yoda could have sent Luke off to kill the emperor believing that he could best him in battle.
-----signature-----
To those who'd ground me take a message back from me. Tell them how I am defying gravity. I'm flying high defying gravity.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/16 1:34pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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He couldn't have though. Obi-Wan was weaker than Maul, but the gulf between Maul and Obi-Wan wasn't as large as the gulf between Luke and Palpatine.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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old_kenobi_hermit
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/16 2:50pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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That's really just a matter of perspective and opinion. Nevertheless, unwise it is to misjudge Luke against the Emperor in a 1-on-1 duel. As this inspirational Star Wars message reminds us, never underestimate the little guy now. 
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/16 7:03pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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There's a difference between an unarmed half trained Jedi fighting a man who is at least one of the most powerful Sith to ever live and a proud warrior race fighting some untrained miners.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/16 7:15pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
1/16 7:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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darth_calvin posted:
I'm just speaking that in terms of combat he was helpless. Luke overcame the Emperor, he just did it by trusting in the Force and setting an example for his father rather than through physical might.
But, just to be clear, he could have beaten the emperor through physical might as well, had that been necessary. Obiwan wasn't as skilled as Maul when he killed him, but he was able to do it with the help of the force. Luke could have done the same thing against Papls. My point is, Ben and Yoda could have sent Luke off to kill the emperor believing that he could best him in battle.
It was quite clear that Luke was altogether defeated by the might of the Emperor in ROTJ. He was on the ground whimpering with the last of his feeble existence when Anakin finally overcame Vader and defeated the Emperor. Vader could not beat Palpatine (or Luke for that matter), but Anakin could. The Electric waves of power should have immediately killed Vader by short curcuiting his suit - but Anakin overcame that by using the living force instead of the dark force, long enough to lift, toss and kill Palpatine and save his son. Luke was a hero and it was his faith in his father and his connection with him that allowed him to feel the core of Anakin still alive that paved the way for the other hero/antihero of the tale - the chosen one, Anakin to bring balance to the force and fulfill the prophecy by ridding them of the Sith (Palpatine and Vader).
The only Jedi that felt the conflict and/or trusted in the force and the prophecy enough to believe that Anakin could come back from the dark side were Luke (as seen) and Qui-Gon (who said Anakin was imprisoned by the dark side and the force would determine his path). Apart from that, the rest of them allowed the doubts and danger they foresaw to totally cloud their vision in that regard and had no faith.
-----signature-----
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/16 7:20pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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It's understandable that they would think that though given that even Anakin didn't know himself as well as Luke did.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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DT421
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
1/17 9:21am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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darth_calvin posted:
Hey guys - haven’t been here for a while. Good to see the thread still trudging along.
DT -
Having compassion means not killing pretty much most of the time. The only justifiable way to compassionately kill is in defense of something that can’t defend itself – while having the Force as your ally. Perfect examples of this:
Ben helping Luke to destroy DS1 – out of compassion and in defense of Yavin and the Rebels.
Anakin killing the Emperor - out of compassion and in defense of Luke.
By your own reason here then it would be alright for Luke to kill Vader and Palps because it is in defense of the entire galaxy and the countless lives that would be lost to the death star.
Depends on what Luke "hears" when listening to the Force, Cal - Which is why I also said "while having the Force as your ally". 
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rhonderoo 
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darth_calvin
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
1/17 12:14pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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MS - The gulf between them doesn’t matter. The theme of right winning out over might under incredibly overwhelming circumstances is constant throughout the saga. A ten year old boy with no combat experience and only a basic knowledge of his aircraft should never have been able to take out the droid control ship. He was able to though, because the force was his ally - because he was acting on behalf of the force and through it found an unlikely opening. The same thing could very well have happened with Luke when facing such insurmountable odds. As OKH said, it’s a matter of perspective and opinion, but the movies clearly show that a much weaker hero is capable of defeating evil.
It was quite clear that Luke was altogether defeated by the might of the Emperor in ROTJ.
Luke was not defeated by the emperor in a physical battle because he didn’t really try to fight him. He threw away his light saber because he understood that is what the force wanted of him. Had the force not directed him to do so, he could have kept his saber and fought off Palps lightening - just as Obiwan with did with Dooku in AOTC or Mace with Palps himself in RotS.
…Luke was a hero and it was his faith in his father and his connection with him that allowed him to feel the core of Anakin still alive that paved the way for the other hero/antihero of the tale - the chosen one, Anakin to bring balance to the force and fulfill the prophecy by ridding them of the Sith (Palpatine and Vader)…
This was the way it worked out, but we’re talking about the motivations of Ben and Yoda who do not have that advance knowledge. Vader’s choice is his own and cannot be predicted. There is reason to believe Luke can defeat the emperor IF he is able to keep the force as his ally, even when faced with his most emotionally challenging situation.
DT
Depends on what Luke "hears" when listening to the Force, Cal - Which is why I also said "while having the Force as your ally".
I think I’m missing the distinction you’re making. As you said, the force can be his ally if he has to take life as long as it is for the greater good. So, if the force had told him to kill Vader & Palps it would be alright? Is that what you’re saying? Cause that’s what I’m saying.
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To those who'd ground me take a message back from me. Tell them how I am defying gravity. I'm flying high defying gravity.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/17 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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The gulf between them doesn’t matter. The theme of right winning out over might under incredibly overwhelming circumstances is constant throughout the saga. A ten year old boy with no combat experience and only a basic knowledge of his aircraft should never have been able to take out the droid control ship. He was able to though, because the force was his ally - because he was acting on behalf of the force and through it found an unlikely opening. The same thing could very well have happened with Luke when facing such insurmountable odds. As OKH said, it’s a matter of perspective and opinion, but the movies clearly show that a much weaker hero is capable of defeating evil.
Oh, I agree that they do, but I think that's not the point of the Luke/Sidious/Vader confrontation. That's to show that the way to defeat evil is by trusting in love and compassion as Luke does rather than attempting to use martial might as Yoda does. I think Yoda knew Luke would win some how,but didn't know if it would be with a lightsaber or some other way.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
1/18 8:49am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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darth_calvin posted:
I'm just speaking that in terms of combat he was helpless. Luke overcame the Emperor, he just did it by trusting in the Force and setting an example for his father rather than through physical might.
But, just to be clear, he could have beaten the emperor through physical might as well, had that been necessary. Obiwan wasn't as skilled as Maul when he killed him, but he was able to do it with the help of the force. Luke could have done the same thing against Papls. My point is, Ben and Yoda could have sent Luke off to kill the emperor believing that he could best him in battle.
Two things, Cal:
1. Lucas states that Luke wasn't powerful enough to beat the Emperor.
2. Yoda states that Obi-Wan isn't powerful enough to beat 'this Lord Sidious'.
Welcome back, by the way.
-JR
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"Love is the answer to the darkness."
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