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Topic:
There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
1/18 9:17am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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George also said that Luke would be twice as powerful as Vader would've been had he not been chopped up, burned, and rebuilt as a cyborg in an oxygen suit. If that's the case, the Luke could be powerful enough to defeat the Emperor and both Sith Lords knew this.
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darth_calvin
Registered:
Dec '02
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Date Posted:
1/18 10:36am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Thanks, Jr. Coming back here is like doing tequila shots with an old friend 
On to business...
Didn't he also say at one time that Vader wasn't powerful enough to overthrow the emperor? I thought I heard that. Maybe PMT knows. I'd like to see the timeline on which quotes he said and when. The man does have trouble being consistent sometimes.
Now I assume you will say that Anakin destroyed palps - not Vader. Which is fine, but (for your theory on motivations) there would still be the inconsistency of Ben and Yoda constantly referring to Anakin as being gone.
The interesting thing, and I'm sure you guys have already gone through this, is Obi's line on Mustafaar when he says something like "only a sith deals in absolutes." This is a contradiction to what Yoda says in TESB about the dark side forever dominating one's destiny (and other lines about Ani being gone). I could see some wiggle room for you there in this whole idea of training with reverse psychology, but in the end I think it brings up some other contradictions - namely, the idea that Luke couldn't beat the emperor would be an absolute that is guiding their motives. In fact, so would the prophecy.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/18 6:03pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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darth_calvin posted:
Didn't he also say at one time that Vader wasn't powerful enough to overthrow the emperor? I thought I heard that. Maybe PMT knows. I'd like to see the timeline on which quotes he said and when. The man does have trouble being consistent sometimes.
He said that Vader in the OT is 80% of Palpatine I believe. It's also worth noting that Vader couldn't have overthrown Palpatine given that he was going to die shortly afterwards due to the Emperor's lightning.
darth_calvin posted:
Now I assume you will say that Anakin destroyed palps - not Vader. Which is fine, but (for your theory on motivations) there would still be the inconsistency of Ben and Yoda constantly referring to Anakin as being gone.
I'm not saying the Jedi knew that Luke would redeem Vader, just that they knew Luke would be successful some how and that they knew it wasn't going to be through martial might. For all they knew Luke would distract the Sith until the Rebels destroyed the Death Star.
darth_calvin posted:
The interesting thing, and I'm sure you guys have already gone through this, is Obi's line on Mustafaar when he says something like "only a sith deals in absolutes." This is a contradiction to what Yoda says in TESB about the dark side forever dominating one's destiny (and other lines about Ani being gone). I could see some wiggle room for you there in this whole idea of training with reverse psychology, but in the end I think it brings up some other contradictions - namely, the idea that Luke couldn't beat the emperor would be an absolute that is guiding their motives. In fact, so would the prophecy.
I think that line is one of the most misunderstood in the Saga. It needs to be looked at in context. "If you're not with me, you're my enemy." "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." Obi-Wan is clearly saying that only a Sith views the world as 'us vs. them.' The Jedi by their very nature believe in the existence of absolutes as the Force is divided into Light and Dark with nothing in between and the Jedi know this. They however understand that not being with the Jedi doesn't mean you're their enemy.
Saying that the Dark Side will forever dominate your destiny isn't incompatable with redemption. Anakin's time as a Sith Lord did dominate his destiny as it's what put him into the suit and those injuries killed him.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/20 8:57am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I still think redemptions should be rare, as opposed to one every month. 
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Eternity85
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/24 7:54am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Its very difficult to know for sure. In the movies it looks like the jedi want luke to kill vader.
Luke: I cant kill my own father
Kenobi: Then the emperor has already won
Its like he tells Luke that if you dont kill him we have lost. Its strange, Qui gon believed in Anakin more than anyone, and in the years after ROTS he were in touch with both Yoda and Kenobi through the force. So that have to mean that even Qui gon lost his faith in Anakin after what happened.But even if he still believed it, Yoda and Kenobi wouldnt listen to him again.
I wonder why? 
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DT421
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
1/24 12:01pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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darth_calvin posted:
DT
Depends on what Luke "hears" when listening to the Force, Cal - Which is why I also said "while having the Force as your ally".
I think I’m missing the distinction you’re making. As you said, the force can be his ally if he has to take life as long as it is for the greater good. So, if the force had told him to kill Vader & Palps it would be alright? Is that what you’re saying? Cause that’s what I’m saying.
Well, that's not quite what I said. If Luke listens to the Force and does what he feels is "right", taking a life could fall into that - i.e DS1.
In ROTS, Luke listened and he felt it was right to throw his saber down in front of the Emperor - out of compassion for his father. He placed his faith in that and it worked out.
"I will do what I must", doesn't always follow logic. Qui-Gon lived by this, then eventually Obi and then Obi passed this on to Luke - "You must do what you feel is right, of course".
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/24 12:06pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I still think redemptions should be rare, as opposed to one every month.
I agree, though I think it should technically be possible for every Dark Sider.
Eternity85 posted:
Its very difficult to know for sure. In the movies it looks like the jedi want luke to kill vader.
Luke: I cant kill my own father
Kenobi: Then the emperor has already won
Its like he tells Luke that if you dont kill him we have lost. Its strange, Qui gon believed in Anakin more than anyone, and in the years after ROTS he were in touch with both Yoda and Kenobi through the force. So that have to mean that even Qui gon lost his faith in Anakin after what happened.But even if he still believed it, Yoda and Kenobi wouldnt listen to him again.
I wonder why?
There's also the possibility that Obi-Wan was saying what he thought Luke needed to hear.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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Tikei-Fore-Tu-Wan
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
5/1 12:15am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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I love that a thread with its beginnings in the neighborhood of five years ago still has its spark. At one point, I was a leading advocate of the "CON" side, and still am. One of the Highpoints of the PT was the lack of a "Vader lets Ben and/or the Kids go" scene. It was vindicating...
That said, looking strictly at the on-screen verbiage of the OT, the only person who believes Vader has any Anakin left in him is Luke. The sticking points still seem to be the same after all this time... I look forward to having the time to go through and reading all the posts in this branch of the still raging debate. A special nod to OBJ for still being in the fray and still attempting to illumine the subtleties of the "Pro" side of the debate. Well met, once again, sir.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/1 12:22pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
5/1 12:24pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Obi-Wan felt that Anakin could come back from the dark side. Every sentence he uttered about Vader either alive or as a force-ghost was bitter and riddled with his idea that "Anakin" was dead, more mechanical than man, and unable to even conceive of being other than a Sith Lord. Yoda told Luke he had to face Vader and that was all that was left to do for him to become a Jedi. That would seem to mean that Yoda felt Luke had a chance of beating Vader. But as we saw, Luke only did so because he was full of anger and venom, steeped up to his ears in the dark side at the time. He returned to the light at the last minute upon seeing his father's arm and realizing what he was becoming - but if he'd never left the light, one must question whether Luke would have been successful with Vader at all. It is a Skywalker thing - their emotions get in the way.
I do not see how either Obi-Wan or Yoda felt Luke could defeat Sidious in a one on one. I think that they were counting on the Skywalker luck - as mentioned by another poster (i.e., destruction of the death star with the Emperor on it and Vader too if Luke couldn't take him out via normal Jedi methods).
All of that supports the idea that neither was counting on Anakin re-surfacing to fulfill his destiny - and it is not clear that either of them truly believed he was still the "chosen one" at that point. So I would have to give an affirmative "no" to the question of the remaining Jedi feeling that there was any good in Vader or that he might return from the darkside. What is strange about it is that Obi-Wan held tight to that notion despite the fact that Luke (Skywalker Jr.) was declaring that Vader still had good in him and could be won back. Padme had told Obi-Wan the same thing years before. All I can think is that Obi-Wan didn't want to believe it because it would add to his feeling that he'd failed Anakin - not just in training, but at Mustafar. Obi-Wan was, afterall, the negotiator, but he had gone about trying to redeem Anakin at Mustafar all wrong and that would be a tremendous failure as he knew him the best of anyone at that time (except for maybe Padme) and certainly far greater than Luke knew him when he was insisting there was good in him. But Obi-Wan failed to take into account the Wife-Husband and Father-Son connection, I think.
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"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
5/2 12:16am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Ben definitely didn't believe Anakin could be redeemed(despite a statement from Lucas to the contrary) but Yoda I still think seems to given that there's no way Yoda would believe Luke could physically defeat the Emperor.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/2 4:18am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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When Yoda says Luke must face Vader again to be a Jedi, he's not saying "you must defeat Vader." The confrontation is what is necessary. He must use what he's learned to make the epiphany and choice to be a true Jedi. Once he is a Jedi, then at the proper moment, the force will guide him to somehow defeat the emperor.. No, it may not be through turning or killing Vader; in fact it maybe that he gives the emperor a toy to play with and torture instead of using the dark side to defeat the rebel forces at a critical moment...
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LemmingLord
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/2 12:14pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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The fact remains that the Jedi, whatever their plans, they did not include Anakin returning from the darkside. To be honest, Luke seemed to be begging his dad with little hope in his heart by the end as well. Luke didn't give up, which was awesome, but he was begging for his father to "help him" by the end rather than to do anything as dramatic as destroy the emperor and bring balance to the force. Anakin stepped up to the plate, truly with no one believing in him at all, with the exception of Luke's waning hope. That is really a shoe string to go on, but it was enough for Anakin. I think that makes Anakin's return to the good side as tremendously satisfactory as his turn to the dark. There were incongruencies and oddities about both, and that is what made it work - with Anakin, everything was out of kilter.
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
"You will try"
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OBIWAN-JR
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
7/10 10:36am
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Tikei-Fore-Tu-Wan posted:
A special nod to OBJ for still being in the fray and still attempting to illumine the subtleties of the "Pro" side of the debate. Well met, once again, sir.
Thanks, Tikei. 
And as we are in the Birthday spirit, a very large thank you to all who made this such a fantastic place to come and discuss Star Wars, life, the universe and everything over those 5 years. It was always a pleasure.
At some point early in the new year, I definitely plan to return here and put down some of my new thoughts on the larger debate - whether the Jedi, specifically Obi-Wan, believe Anakin can be redeemed. I have done a lot of reading over the last two years of literature that has strengthened my resolve, and which speaks to the deeper, more universal truths which I believe George is trying to get across.
Until then, May The Force Be With You.
-JR
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"Love is the answer to the darkness."
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/10 1:33pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Ben definitely didn't believe Anakin could be redeemed(despite a statement from Lucas to the contrary)
Where did Lucas make this statement?
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/10 2:47pm
Subject:
RE: There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?
- Date Edited:
7/10 2:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Ben definitely didn't believe Anakin could be redeemed(despite a statement from Lucas to the contrary)
Where did Lucas make this statement?
The quote I've seen cited in multiple places including here is:
"The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film."
I'm not sure what the source is though. If I had to guess I'd say it's probably from The Annotated Screenplays or his interview with Bill Moyers.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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