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Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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GARTH_MAUL
Title: Photorealistic LACWAC Manager
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 11:19am
Subject:
Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
- Date Edited:
3/10 4:01am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LemmingLord
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The PT raises more questions about Palpatine/Sidious than it answers.
We know Palpatine has foresight through the Force, especially as the Shroud of the Dark Side falls and the Dark Side is ascendant. He can see the future.
We also know Palpatine is a master manipulator: patient, devious, and great insight into the psychological motivations and weaknesses of humanity.
My question is: How much of what occurred in TPM, AOTC and ROTS went according to plan for Palpatine?
What was pro-active? What was reactive? What was desperation?
If you break it down by individual films, consider the following:
TPM
- Did Palpatine think Queen Amidala would sign the treaty?
- Was he certain he would become Chancellor?
- Did he know of the existence of Anakin?
- Did he know Darth Maul was going to die (and the TF lose the Naboo battle)?
AOTC
- Did Palpatine know Padme would survive the assassination attempts?
- Did he know Obi-Wan would find the Kaminoan saber dart and eventually track down Kamino?
- Did he know Anakin's mother was kidnapped/dying?
- Did he know what would happen on Geonosis?
ROTS
- Did Palpatine know Dooku would die and Obi-Wan survive?
- Did he know they would survive the crash of the Invisible Hand?
- Did he know Anakin wasn't going to kill him when he revealed himself as Sith?
- Did he know Anakin would arrive in time to help him with Mace?
- Did he know about the twins?
- Did he know Anakin was going to get sliced and diced, then deep-fried?
IMHO, Palpatine can see various threads of the future, and see how to manipulate things. I don't think he knows exactly what will happen in most cases - remember Yoda says the future is always in motion.
I think the PT shows him more as a master manipulator than some kind of oracle.
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DarthButt
Title: Manager
• Classic Trilogy
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 11:42am
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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Great thread.
It was a combination of manipulation and over confidence.
Luke: "Your over-confidence is your weakness."
The events in TPM and AOTC I beleive were all pre-planned events. By the time we get to ROTS, though, a lot of it was an "all or nothing" kind of thing, and a TON of over-confidence. And it's hilarious that he calls Yoda arrogent...such hypocracy. It's pretty obvious that the bad things that happened in ROTS, such as Vader getting torched, wasn't in his game plan, but it all worked out to his advantage. It wasn't until ROTJ that things truely came full circle. Nobody can get it that good forever. The bad events that happened in the PT weren't even really obstacles to him...because he doesn't care about anybody in reality, except ,of course, himself.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 11:53am
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
- Date Edited:
11/14/05 12:01pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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Well, a lot of Palpatine's actions are pre-planned, but a lot of stuff happens that he didn't plan for.
He didn't know Darth Maul was going to die - That really is a key one, because from then on he is trying to replace Maul by turning adults, rather than having someone who was actually born into the Sithhood.
The discovery of Anakin - I don't believe for a minute that Sidious created Anakin. I also don't believe Sidious knew anything about Anakin. If it was Plaugus who created Anakin, I'm sure he didn't tell Sidious anything about it.
The Trade Federations defeat - Sidious didn't know Amidala would prove as strong a leader as she was. I also think he didn't know she would come to Coruscant and bring down Valorum.
Darth Vader's defeat. This is perhaps the biggest one in terms of the Saga. He didn't see Vaders defeat and he didn't see that Vader would lose most of his potential as he becomes more machine than man and lose's a lot of his midi's.
So yes, a lot of stuff was part of Palpatines plan, but a lot was also adapting to events and seizing his moment.
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The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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sepharih
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 1:33pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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TPM
- Did Palpatine think Queen Amidala would sign the treaty?
"Probably, but he knew she would be tough to crack. I think what happend when they arrived on coruscant was a backup plan, while the real one was to use the trade federations actions to incur an even higher sympathy vote when he would say"How can the chancellor allow these horrible things to happen even if they are legal."
- Was he certain he would become Chancellor?
"Oh yeah."
- Did he know of the existence of Anakin?
"Possibly. He isn't blinded like the Jedi are so I think he might have felt Anakin's birth, he had no idea where he was though."
- Did he know Darth Maul was going to die (and the TF lose the Naboo battle)?
"No. It didn't matter though, he got what he was after mainly even though the federation lost, and it probably set back his plans to start the war on the republic a bit, he probably had to improvise a bit in the ten years between TPM and AOTC."
AOTC
- Did Palpatine know Padme would survive the assassination attempts?
"Yep. He was her closest advisor and knew full well of her use of decoy targets. Why didn't he tell the trade federation about that during EP1 you might wonder. The assasination attempt was done so that she would accept Jedi protection."
- Did he know Obi-Wan would find the Kaminoan saber dart and eventually track down Kamino?
"I think Jango was ORDERED to use a saber dart so he could lead Obi-wan to Kamino, since the archives had been erased by Dooku previously to ensure that they couldn't stop by between the 10 years the army was being created. He made the Jedi think that they had discovered the Clone Army and used it against the enemy, which they could not have done if they had sent a message saying "Here's an army for you to fight this sudden threat."
- Did he know Anakin's mother was kidnapped/dying?
"Doubtful. Although Anakin did confide in him about the sandpeople later."
- Did he know what would happen on Geonosis?
"Yup. He instigated the entire war."
ROTS
- Did Palpatine know Dooku would die and Obi-Wan survive?
"I think it was a test to see wether Dooku or Anakin was stronger. Dooku probably told palpatine how much he strugled against Anakin on Genosis and so he got the bright Idea. I don't think he inteded for Obi-wan to survive the encounter however, which is why he opted to leave and let him die."
- Did he know they would survive the crash of the Invisible Hand?
"When he tells Anakin to leave Obi-wan I think it's *because he wants to get back to Anakin's ship since he realizes that the Invisible Hand isn't going to last much longer, it wasn't his intention to be on it when it crashed, but I think he knew that if anyone could land that piece of hulking metal it was his soon to be apprentice. I think he was sweating there for a little while though."
- Did he know Anakin wasn't going to kill him when he revealed himself as Sith?
"Yes. He waited just long enough and seduced Anakin before he finally made his move. By that time he knew that Anakin would be far to attached to him to simply kill him. Plus, Anakin wouldn't have stood a chance if he tried anything anyway, palps had a lightsaber up his sleeve(literally).
- Did he know Anakin would arrive in time to help him with Mace?
"I think that's why he drew the fight on as long as it did. GL may have confirmed that Mace did beat Palpatine, and that he did not through the fight, but I still think the reason he did was because Palpatine was never trying to beat Mace at all, he was just trying to hold off long enough until Anakin arrived. We'll still have debates about whether or not Mace could really beat him if they went at it, but I'm just gonna say that if palpatine hadn't been so busy with Anakin the fight would have gone differently. He may not have won, but that whole boot to the hid would have been dodged or just shrugged off.
- Did he know about the twins?
"No. He, like everyone else, assumed that Padme and the child died."
- Did he know Anakin was going to get sliced and diced, then deep-fried?
"Nope. He sensed that Anakin was in trouble which is why he took off to begin with."
my 2 cents.
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See Qui-Gon In ROTJ and Join the Campaign!!!----> http://rapidshare.de/files/3067435/Quirotj20.mov.html -In memory of Kreia, she turned this Lightsider into a Greywalker.
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Darth_Tweakpiece
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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To quote the Emperor in ROTJ "everyting has gone according to my design"...that to me sums it up...He knew what he was doing all along...
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Darth_Pazuzu
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 4:55pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
- Date Edited:
11/14/05 4:56pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_Pazuzu
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Darth_Tweakpiece posted:
To quote the Emperor in ROTJ "everyting has gone according to my design"...that to me sums it up...He knew what he was doing all along...
Riiiiiiiiiiggggghhhtt! 
Yeah, we all know that a Sith Lord can be taken at his word when it comes to the extent of his own nefarious genius...
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"On the values by which this world makes its heroes / then the best violinist ever was Nero / Because he had the most press / and his fire gimmick was simply the best!" - Peter Hammill, "Two Or Three Spectres" (1975)
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heels1785
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 5:13pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
- Date Edited:
11/14/05 5:15pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
heels1785
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Very interesting thread, but I'd like to add a point. I DO think the Sidious planned for Maul to die, because Sidious gave him direct orders to take the Queen after "moving on the Jedi." Palpatine would be in a real jam had Maul killed Obi-Wan and then killed off the queen (thus removing Anakin's primary tool in his turn to the Dark Side), or better yet just captured her--what would Maul do with the queen? Hand her over to Sidious?
I just think Padme's survival was so important in Anakin's eventual turn that Sidious did in fact know that his apprentice would be slaughtered, and that Sids considered that to be collateral damage for his ultimate plan. And I certainly don't buy that Sidious was prepared to commit to Darth Maul as his long-term apprentice for the eventual overtaking of the Republic.
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GARTH_MAUL
Title: Photorealistic LACWAC Manager
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 5:22pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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Why not? Maul was trained from birth - why waste so much time and effort on him if he's so disposable?
I think Anakin factored into Palpatine's plans after he was discovered on Tatooine and his subsequent adventures on Naboo.
I'm not convinced Palpatine knew Anakin wouldn't harm him - it was a calculated gamble, because he knew the Jedi were closing in.
When you look at the "reveal" scene, check out Palpatine's left hand - it shakes quite a bit, especially near the end. Great subtle acting by McDiarmid.
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Chosen_One1
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May '05
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 5:25pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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I think Palpatine is just a genius manipulator. He is basically a puppet master pulling strings. He may not know exactly what is going to happen, but he is able to find a solution to every situation.
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sepharih
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Mar '05
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 6:18pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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I'm not convinced Palpatine knew Anakin wouldn't harm him - it was a calculated gamble, because he knew the Jedi were closing in.
When you look at the "reveal" scene, check out Palpatine's left hand - it shakes quite a bit, especially near the end. Great subtle acting by McDiarmid.
I think that was a nice little touch from Mcdiarmid, however I think that was more for Anakin than anything else, much like how he acts during Anakin's turn.
The shaking hand was a concious action from palpatine to make him appear to be frightened and defenseless from Anakin. If Palpatine had truly suspected that Anakin was going to strike him he would have unsheathed his saber in the blink of an eye.
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Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa
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Jan '02
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 6:44pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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Great thread, G_M.
TPM
- Did Palpatine think Queen Amidala would sign the treaty?
To an extent, yes, but I don't think she was so surprised when she refused to. What really baked his noodle was the fact she went back to Naboo after addressing the senate.
- Was he certain he would become Chancellor?
Yes, he thought he had it won from the very beginning.
- Did he know of the existence of Anakin?
No, not yet. Anakin was just something that came with the territory in time that kind of made him say "hmmm, could he be of use to me?"
- Did he know Darth Maul was going to die (and the TF lose the Naboo battle)?
Yes. I think it's safe to say he presumed it.
AOTC
- Did Palpatine know Padme would survive the assassination attempts?
Yes, but it never hurt to try it and find out.
- Did he know Obi-Wan would find the Kaminoan saber dart and eventually track down Kamino?
There's where his forsight came in, yes. The path was so incredibly clear for that to happen, Palpatine must've known.
- Did he know Anakin's mother was kidnapped/dying?
I'm sure Anakin had told him about that during their friendship, but I suppose he could've known before that.
- Did he know what would happen on Geonosis?
Good question, I'm going to go with "yes".
ROTS
- Did Palpatine know Dooku would die and Obi-Wan survive?
Yes, he knew Dooku would die. He needed Dooku to get out of his way, and that was a very simplistic way to do it. He was fast-forwarding his plans at that point, he wanted to fully ally himself with Anakin and make him his apprentice as soon as possible. He knew that the Jedi would bring Anakin and Obi-Wan out of the Outer Rim Sieges and that they would be sent to rescue him. However, he didn't expect Obi-Wan to survive, so once again, he had to make a spur-of-the-moment decision.
- Did he know they would survive the crash of the Invisible Hand?
Yes.
- Did he know Anakin wasn't going to kill him when he revealed himself as Sith?
Yes. The fact was that Palpatine had power than Anakin wanted, and the only way to get that power would be to disown the Jedi Order. However, Anakin wasn't really sure of anything about what he would do at that point. He couldn't risk killing him.
- Did he know Anakin would arrive in time to help him with Mace?
Of course. He knew that reporting him to the Jedi Council was a choice would barely make, and that Anakin would have a guilt trip during the "arrest".
- Did he know about the twins?
I don't think so, but if he did, he did a good job at keeping it under wraps for thirty years.
- Did he know Anakin was going to get sliced and diced, then deep-fried?
Since Obi-Wan survived, that was the destiny he faced.
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DarthButt
Title: Manager
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 8:50pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
- Date Edited:
11/14/05 8:54pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthButt
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GARTH_MAUL posted:
Why not? Maul was trained from birth - why waste so much time and effort on him if he's so disposable?
This is very interesting. I don't know the history of Darth Maul yet (I just purchased Shadow Hunter and it's in the mail  ), so I'm assuming what you are saying about this is true. I'm also assuming Sidious trained him from birth as well. And if that is the case, then I'd say it is safe to say Maul was in his 20's when the events of TPM took place. And according to the Insider, Plagueis was in fact Sidious' former master. This means Sidious became the "master" 20-some-odd years prior to TPM. Now factor in the "Rule of Two". This would mean that there would be no way Plagueis created Anakin, because he would have been dead well before Anakin was conceived. And I am also in agreeance with you that Sidious did not create Anakin.
If what I am assuming is true, then this answers a lot of questions, and potentially raises more. Fantastic thread
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GARTH_MAUL
Title: Photorealistic LACWAC Manager
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May '02
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 10:22pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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From the OS:
DARTH MAUL
Homeworld:
Iridonia
Species:
Zabrak
No one is quite sure how Darth Sidious came across his young and deadly apprentice. He was raised from an early age to be a weapon, tempered by harsh, abusive training to become an incredible warrior. Once a Zabrak from Iridonia, Maul abandoned all trace of his former identity when he took on his Sith name. So complete was his devotion that he even endured the agony of having intricate Sith tattoos applied to his entire body.
I'm leaving the rest out if you haven't read Shadow Hunter.
So Maul wasn't raised from birth, but from an early age.
I find it surprising how many of you are convinced Palpatine knew Anakin wouldn't kill him or arrest him.
I think him finally revealing his true nature was Palpatine's biggest gamble. The war was ending, the Jedi were closing in.
He had to act *now* to get Anakin on his side.
Look at the Squid Lake scene - Palps tries to convince Anakin that the Jedi and the Sith are exactly the same, and Anakin obviously isn't buying it. Palps gets frustrated and pulls out the legend of Darth Plagueis the Wise.
"Are you going to kill me?" "I would certainly like to."
I think at this moment what's restraining Anakin is actually his Jedi training - which is why he does the right thing and goes to Mace Windu.
Just in case Anakin isn't going to come, Palps sends him the telepathic message...
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DarthButt
Title: Manager
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Date Posted:
11/14/05 10:43pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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GARTH_MAUL posted:
I find it surprising how many of you are convinced Palpatine knew Anakin wouldn't kill him or arrest him.
I think him finally revealing his true nature was Palpatine's biggest gamble. The war was ending, the Jedi were closing in.
He had to act *now* to get Anakin on his side.
Look at the Squid Lake scene - Palps tries to convince Anakin that the Jedi and the Sith are exactly the same, and Anakin obviously isn't buying it. Palps gets frustrated and pulls out the legend of Darth Plagueis the Wise.
"Are you going to kill me?" "I would certainly like to."
I think at this moment what's restraining Anakin is actually his Jedi training - which is why he does the right thing and goes to Mace Windu.
Just in case Anakin isn't going to come, Palps sends him the telepathic message...
That's what I was saying earlier...in ROTS it came down to "all or nothing". He didn't have a choice. The Jedi were on to him ("the dark side surrounds the chancellor"). I kinda think he would rather go out gloriously as a Sith Lord than have to run into seclusion. And that's if he failed at his plan. If he won, he would rule the galaxy. I think in Palpatine's mind, it's a win-win.
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andkiich
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Jul '05
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Date Posted:
11/15/05 2:37pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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I suggest reading the novelizations for the prequel trilogy. They will afford answers to more than half the questions asked.
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Alpha-Red
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Apr '04
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Date Posted:
11/15/05 6:08pm
Subject:
RE: Palpatine - Foresight & Manipulation - How Much Does He Know?
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I think as far as ROTJ is concerned, Palpatine wasn't wrong in saying that it's Luke's destiny to turn to the dark side. It's more like Luke sorta knew he was destined to do so but decided to defy what was preordained...which would make it more dramatic than simply "Oh, Palps got it all wrong..."
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