-HD-YaebGinn posted:AlleySkywalker- I am not trying to insult or offend you. I am just saying that this is a made up universe. It's not real and it is ridiculous to ask me to respect your opinion on who loves who more in Star Wars. I did not insult anyone in the post you quoted, I cant even see how you took that as an insult. Once again. Star Wars is not real. None of this exists. I cannot be expected to respect someone's belief on something that doesnt exist and has no consequence either way. Quick recap: Anakin- Not Real Obi-Wan- Not Real Santa Claus- Doesnt exist. And for the record, he still called him Master. I never said he was his Padawan, I just said who loved his master more. AniLover- 1. So he wasnt lucky that Yoda came to rescue him? 2. Not good enough. Give an example (a specific scene) of how Obi-Wan got lucky in the duel with Maul. Give every part of the duel that he got lucky. Everything you dont mention we will chalk up to skill. 3. This thread is about if Obi is lucky or not. It's not an Obi bash fest. It is a needed reminder that Anakin lost as well, twice, and lasted not near as long as Obi-Wan. It's a two-way street. 4. If his lightsaber spontaneously combusted, Obi would be dead. He's lucky his lightsaber didnt spontaneously combust. And do you know what physics is? This is physics applied to a more practical matter. Force exerted, leverage, angling, control, etc. Crack open a textbook. 5. (And by the way, Darth Maul was lucky there was a hole to push Obi into. He had him beaten if he hadn't been so arogant. Or maybe Obi was lucky. If Maul hadn't pushed him in, he wouldn't have stood over taunting him. If there was no hole, and Obi would've had to continue battling Maul, Maul eventually probably would have beaten him. So see?? There's just a whole buncha luck there isn't there???) Thats a quote from you. You did say he was lucky there was a hole to push him into. And if Obi flew out of the starting gate, kicked Maul against a wall, chopped his saber in half, how do you assume Maul would have eventually finished Obi off if there had been no hole? He did fall in the hole, and it came out better for him. You are saying 'what if he missed the knob despite all laws of physics' then he could use his grapple chord thing down the line as we have seen him use before. Maul is a fighting machine, he never has in any books or the part of the film we saw him in, taunt anyone. Even in the book, he granted a quick death to those who fought him well, and even to one unarmed, non Force user who he had corned. he didnt play with him, he just killed him. How do you get taunting? 6. I will give you a couple. a) He tossed him his saber in AotC to help him fend off Dooku for longer. He helped him last longer than he would have otherwise and prevented certain death. It's not his fault Anakin lacked skills to last longer than he did. b) Mustafar. He spared his life at the end of the duel. There's two off the top of my head. Name all the times shown that Anakin saved Obi-Wan. Shown. 7. Then why are you still here? That remark was obvious sarcasm to show you how all this Obi-luck no-skill talk sounds to us Obi fans. 8. See above.
LuvObi posted:Ani_Lover posted: Actually the Duel with Dooku was discussed. Which means the discussion is over. You admitted Obi was LUCKY in that duel. Case closed. You said Obi is never lucky in his own duels, then you proceeded to eat your own words and say he was. Which is it??? I've been arguing that Obi won his duel against Maul and Greivous (which seems to be the most popular example that people like to talk about Obi-Wan getting lucky) by his skills and brain the whole entire time. How is this eating my words? I have never wavered from these opinion. The one Dooku duel where Yoda came to the rescue is the one exception and I admitted that readily. So, again, where have I eaten my words? If anything, it seems that the naysayers are eating their words. They never admitted Obi-Wan was skilled until very recently. [color=deeppink]I have ALWAYS admitted that Obi is skilled. I just believe he has some luck sometimes. Please quit including me with what YOU think are a group of Obi haters. What IS gonna make me hate him, is your endless remarks and sarcasm towards me. It really can change how a person sees a certain character because of the way their fans come across. This thread has made me look at Obi-Wan in a more negative light then I ever have before. I am sure that is not your intention. Take a look at my VERY FIRST POST. You will see I said that Obi was skilled from the very beginning. Please quit saying that I haven't. And do I "admit" Obi wasn't lucky against Maul?? Of course not, cause that isn't true. He was a skilled Padawan who got a lucky shot in at someone who was too arogant to finish him off and be done with it. You do realize that you are contradicting yourself here, don't you? You said Obi wasn't lucky against Maul but then he got a lucky shot in to finish off Maul. That is a direct contradiction. Don't worry, it's been happening a lot lately in this thread. No I am not contradicting myself. I said Obi was skilled, (there I go again, saying he's skilled, when you claim I don't) and that he got a lucky shot. How is that contradicting??? This is your response to a post Alley made:[/color] Please tell me what Anakin has to do with any of this??? This discussion is about Obi-Wan, NOT Anakin. You admit that Obi was beaten. Leave it at that. It really puzzles me why Obi fans have to drag Anakin in to make Obi look better. Let's stick to the topic, shall we?? I can point out something that happened in the movie if I want to. The purpose is to ensure naysayers don't start saying Obi-Wan is so weak and point out that Dooku was indeed a very powerful opponent and that he was able to beat both of them individuallly in that duel. Yes, but your points have nothing to do with the topic. When you have to bring other characters in, it really brings the validity of your own point way down. Just like you don't like Ani fans blaming Mace, Obi, or anyone else for his fall, don't start blaming others or bringing others in to make Obi look better. Let his points stand on their own. That knob is a part of the structure of the place they were in. Obi-Wan happened to use something in his environment to his advantage. If that knob wasn't there, he'll use another fixture in the place to hold onto. Or he could've used his string that he used in AOTC against Jango Fett. Just because a knob that was a permanent part of the structure of the place was there does not mean it's luck. If you use that analogy, you might as well say, Maul was lucky there was a hole in the middle of the floor to push Obi down into. But I would never use that argument because I know it's a weak argument. This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far. You're grasping at straws here. Like you yourself said about Anakin: coulda, woulda, shoulda. Could have use his string?? Gimme a break. Just because the knob is a permanent part of the structure it's not luck? Okay. Whatever. The permanentcy of the knob is not the issue here. It's whether Obi was lucky that he fell so close to the knob. And the fact is: he was. (And by the way, Darth Maul was lucky there was a hole to push Obi into. He had him beaten if he hadn't been so arogant. Or maybe Obi was lucky. If Maul hadn't pushed him in, he wouldn't have stood over taunting him. If there was no hole, and Obi would've had to continue battling Maul, Maul eventually probably would have beaten him. So see?? There's just a whole buncha luck there isn't there??? I am not grasping at straws but merely pointing out valid points. I still don't see how you could say that something that was a permanent part of the structure of the building has anything to do with luck. There are so many movies where a person falls over a cliff but managed to hang onto a ledge to break their fall and nobody goes "oh they're so lucky that ledge was there". No, they admire that person for having the resources and brains to quickly grab onto the ledge to break their fall. And did you understand what I meant by "if you are saying Obi was lucky that the knob was there then I can just say that Maul was lucky that the hole was there"? It's a weak argument that I would never even think of using. Actually, it's pretty simple. If someone did fall off a cliff and manage to hang onto a ledge, I'd say they were pretty damn lucky! By all means, they should have been toast. Also, I don't agree with you that had they continued the duel if the hole wasn't there, that Maul would've beaten Obi-Wan. Watch the duel again, Obi-Wan was clearly winning the duel and was not in anyway overpowered by Maul. Then we will agree to disagree. Because in my book, the duel could have went any way. Maul took down Qui-Gon, what makes you think he couldn't take his Padawan?? There was something you mentioned to Alley, that Maul and Obi were both Padawans. NOT TRUE. Maul was a Sith Lord. Raised from infancy by Sideous. We are not diminishing anything here. We have a valid opinion, and some people will grasp at anything to prove it's not so. The facts are there. We are more than willing to acknowledge Obi-Wans many accomplishments. Are you willing to do the same for Anakin, since he's always dragged in? Thank you for willing to acknowledge Obi-Wan's accomplishments because honestly, when the thread was first started, I didn't see any acknowledgement of his skills at all. I've acknowledged his accomplishments many times. You're just to busy seeing what you want to see, and including me in with everyone else to see it. Don't forget that YOU are the one that has a problem generalizing people, NOT me. As for Anakin, I didn't say anything negative about his accomplishments aside from getting owned by Dooku in AOTC, which really is a fact. Please take a look back, there have been some very rude comments about Ani, including that he has no skills whatsoever. By the way.... I guess It was LUCKY that Anakin decided to carry an unconscious Obi-Wan on his back while on the Invisible hand Eh? "His fate will be the same as ours." Guess Obi-Wan was LUCKY Anakin was flying next to him and used the wing of his own Jedi Starfighter to scrape the droids off, or Obi woulda been toast. Hmmm.... looks like it was LUCKY creepy little Anakin saved Obi's butt on more than One occasion. Again, I have no idea how Anakin is part of this discussion. However, I don't think the word "lucky" is appropriate to use when Anakin helped Obi-Wan. It was a very good thing Anakin did to rescue his former master. However, it's not lucky. I think you're mixing up being "lucky" with a conscious effort to do something good. I am not mixing anything up. Obi was lucky Ani was there to save his butt, and that's that. If you cannot see that Obi was lucky to have a loyal and caring friend like Anakin, then whatever. He could have left him to die on the Invisable Hand. He didn't. I'm sure you know that Obi-Wan also saved Anakin's butt too over the years, right? Obi-Wan just isn't the type to talk about them. It was a great relationship they had with one another. Like I said to HD, SHOW ME SOME. (And thank YOU for acknowledging that they had a great relationship with one another. That's the first time I heard THAT.....
Ani_Lover posted: Actually the Duel with Dooku was discussed. Which means the discussion is over. You admitted Obi was LUCKY in that duel. Case closed. You said Obi is never lucky in his own duels, then you proceeded to eat your own words and say he was. Which is it??? I've been arguing that Obi won his duel against Maul and Greivous (which seems to be the most popular example that people like to talk about Obi-Wan getting lucky) by his skills and brain the whole entire time. How is this eating my words? I have never wavered from these opinion. The one Dooku duel where Yoda came to the rescue is the one exception and I admitted that readily. So, again, where have I eaten my words? If anything, it seems that the naysayers are eating their words. They never admitted Obi-Wan was skilled until very recently. [color=deeppink]I have ALWAYS admitted that Obi is skilled. I just believe he has some luck sometimes. Please quit including me with what YOU think are a group of Obi haters. What IS gonna make me hate him, is your endless remarks and sarcasm towards me. It really can change how a person sees a certain character because of the way their fans come across. This thread has made me look at Obi-Wan in a more negative light then I ever have before. I am sure that is not your intention. Take a look at my VERY FIRST POST. You will see I said that Obi was skilled from the very beginning. Please quit saying that I haven't. And do I "admit" Obi wasn't lucky against Maul?? Of course not, cause that isn't true. He was a skilled Padawan who got a lucky shot in at someone who was too arogant to finish him off and be done with it. You do realize that you are contradicting yourself here, don't you? You said Obi wasn't lucky against Maul but then he got a lucky shot in to finish off Maul. That is a direct contradiction. Don't worry, it's been happening a lot lately in this thread. No I am not contradicting myself. I said Obi was skilled, (there I go again, saying he's skilled, when you claim I don't) and that he got a lucky shot. How is that contradicting??? This is your response to a post Alley made:[/color] Please tell me what Anakin has to do with any of this??? This discussion is about Obi-Wan, NOT Anakin. You admit that Obi was beaten. Leave it at that. It really puzzles me why Obi fans have to drag Anakin in to make Obi look better. Let's stick to the topic, shall we?? I can point out something that happened in the movie if I want to. The purpose is to ensure naysayers don't start saying Obi-Wan is so weak and point out that Dooku was indeed a very powerful opponent and that he was able to beat both of them individuallly in that duel. Yes, but your points have nothing to do with the topic. When you have to bring other characters in, it really brings the validity of your own point way down. Just like you don't like Ani fans blaming Mace, Obi, or anyone else for his fall, don't start blaming others or bringing others in to make Obi look better. Let his points stand on their own. That knob is a part of the structure of the place they were in. Obi-Wan happened to use something in his environment to his advantage. If that knob wasn't there, he'll use another fixture in the place to hold onto. Or he could've used his string that he used in AOTC against Jango Fett. Just because a knob that was a permanent part of the structure of the place was there does not mean it's luck. If you use that analogy, you might as well say, Maul was lucky there was a hole in the middle of the floor to push Obi down into. But I would never use that argument because I know it's a weak argument. This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far. You're grasping at straws here. Like you yourself said about Anakin: coulda, woulda, shoulda. Could have use his string?? Gimme a break. Just because the knob is a permanent part of the structure it's not luck? Okay. Whatever. The permanentcy of the knob is not the issue here. It's whether Obi was lucky that he fell so close to the knob. And the fact is: he was. (And by the way, Darth Maul was lucky there was a hole to push Obi into. He had him beaten if he hadn't been so arogant. Or maybe Obi was lucky. If Maul hadn't pushed him in, he wouldn't have stood over taunting him. If there was no hole, and Obi would've had to continue battling Maul, Maul eventually probably would have beaten him. So see?? There's just a whole buncha luck there isn't there??? I am not grasping at straws but merely pointing out valid points. I still don't see how you could say that something that was a permanent part of the structure of the building has anything to do with luck. There are so many movies where a person falls over a cliff but managed to hang onto a ledge to break their fall and nobody goes "oh they're so lucky that ledge was there". No, they admire that person for having the resources and brains to quickly grab onto the ledge to break their fall. And did you understand what I meant by "if you are saying Obi was lucky that the knob was there then I can just say that Maul was lucky that the hole was there"? It's a weak argument that I would never even think of using. Actually, it's pretty simple. If someone did fall off a cliff and manage to hang onto a ledge, I'd say they were pretty damn lucky! By all means, they should have been toast. Also, I don't agree with you that had they continued the duel if the hole wasn't there, that Maul would've beaten Obi-Wan. Watch the duel again, Obi-Wan was clearly winning the duel and was not in anyway overpowered by Maul. Then we will agree to disagree. Because in my book, the duel could have went any way. Maul took down Qui-Gon, what makes you think he couldn't take his Padawan?? There was something you mentioned to Alley, that Maul and Obi were both Padawans. NOT TRUE. Maul was a Sith Lord. Raised from infancy by Sideous. We are not diminishing anything here. We have a valid opinion, and some people will grasp at anything to prove it's not so. The facts are there. We are more than willing to acknowledge Obi-Wans many accomplishments. Are you willing to do the same for Anakin, since he's always dragged in? Thank you for willing to acknowledge Obi-Wan's accomplishments because honestly, when the thread was first started, I didn't see any acknowledgement of his skills at all. I've acknowledged his accomplishments many times. You're just to busy seeing what you want to see, and including me in with everyone else to see it. Don't forget that YOU are the one that has a problem generalizing people, NOT me. As for Anakin, I didn't say anything negative about his accomplishments aside from getting owned by Dooku in AOTC, which really is a fact. Please take a look back, there have been some very rude comments about Ani, including that he has no skills whatsoever. By the way.... I guess It was LUCKY that Anakin decided to carry an unconscious Obi-Wan on his back while on the Invisible hand Eh? "His fate will be the same as ours." Guess Obi-Wan was LUCKY Anakin was flying next to him and used the wing of his own Jedi Starfighter to scrape the droids off, or Obi woulda been toast. Hmmm.... looks like it was LUCKY creepy little Anakin saved Obi's butt on more than One occasion. Again, I have no idea how Anakin is part of this discussion. However, I don't think the word "lucky" is appropriate to use when Anakin helped Obi-Wan. It was a very good thing Anakin did to rescue his former master. However, it's not lucky. I think you're mixing up being "lucky" with a conscious effort to do something good. I am not mixing anything up. Obi was lucky Ani was there to save his butt, and that's that. If you cannot see that Obi was lucky to have a loyal and caring friend like Anakin, then whatever. He could have left him to die on the Invisable Hand. He didn't. I'm sure you know that Obi-Wan also saved Anakin's butt too over the years, right? Obi-Wan just isn't the type to talk about them. It was a great relationship they had with one another. Like I said to HD, SHOW ME SOME. (And thank YOU for acknowledging that they had a great relationship with one another. That's the first time I heard THAT.....
LuvObi posted: Maul was also a padawan so there really is no way of knowing had they had a Force push battle, who would've won. True…and yet he did defeat Qui who was a Jedi master and one of the best swordsmen in the Order. Also Anakin hadn’t started his training in the Dark Side yet while Maul had been going at it for a while so he would know quite well how to use the DS to aid him there the way that Anakin wouldn’t have known. Well, honestly, it doesn't make sense to say Obi-Wan didn't win that duel because of "luck" but he was "lucky" that so and so did this. It is a direct contradiction. I think the problem with lack of comprehension and short-term memory in this thread is because people will only read and comprehend what they want to comprehend. OK notice again what I wrote. I said that I had never stated that Obi-Wan was not skilled. He won some duels b/s of both skill and some luck. Yes, taking advantage of your opponent's mistakes is a skill that Obi-Wan is good at. However, saying that that's the ONLY way he wins all his duels (which if you read that quote, that is exactly what was meant) really is diminishing what he accomplished and the fact that he used his skills and brain to win and not just stood there waiting for someone to make a mistake in order to win his duels. I really don’t see how you got that meaning out of that quote. She could have chosen her words more carefully but I think what she really mean was that to her it seemed like Obi-Wan had a luck on his side lot. Hey you never know maybe she got that opinion from the quote in LOE : (In reference to Obi-Wan) “A Jedi with enough fortune to almost make one believe in luck” (Labyrinth Of Evil, page 169) And just b/c one person has an opinion doesn’t mean that everyone else’s is the same.
-HD-YaebGinn posted:Ani-Lover 1. Just so we are on the same page. 2. Ok, so the only part of the Maul duel that Obi got lucky in was the peg? So him beating Maul against a wall and slashing his saber in half was all his own skill? His string is only saying 'even if there wasnt a permanet part of the structure from years before, he still had a fall-back plan'. It's debatable on his reaction skills, but we have seen him tie a lasso in free fall, why could he just throw a hook around the peg in free fall? But thats besides the point. Who's throwing what ifs now? If the peg was not a PERMANENT part of the structure. Thats a big if. All those variables cannot siply add up to blind luck. There has to be an amount of control behind it. And there was. LuvObi and I are not joined at the hip. We can have different opinions. But notice that she said taunt him OR create sparks to accelerate him falling. Which was what I said originally. I dont see where she said he was taunting him. Just 2 of his options he could do seeing as he couldnt kill him. And are you saying because LuvObi said it that it is to be believed? If so, why are you debating with her on a subject she is saying more about than a passing referrence? 3. Time it. The last duel has alot of speculation about it. I am not a fan of the RotS book, which says that Dooku more or less let Anakin win thinking that Sidious would bail him out. I believe that is partly the case though. He didnt let Anakin win, but his goal was to get Obi out of the way so he could deal with Anakin and try to turn him with Sidious. Notice at the time, he psuhed Anakin to the ground, too. He could have done the exact same that he did to Obi-Wan to Anakin. Think about it. 4. I am saying that his lightsaber spontaneously combusting is as likely as the hook not being there. None of them happened. None of them could have happened. Him falling where the peg is is physics. The force of the kick (or push, I cant remember) the weight of Obi, the amount of control he exerted over his body, etc. Physics 101. I hadnt bothered to look in your profile, I'm not a weirdo. Thats great, nursing is a wonderful field. I'm not joking there, it really is good. But, it has nothing to do with physics. It has many other difficult areas in it, stuff I couldnt do, but not physics. 5. That's being bullheaded. 'Nothing you can say will change my mind' That is a very absolute statement. What if I got Lucas and Ray Park to come over to your house and they told you 'Darth Maul was not tauntin Obi-Wan Kenobi is Episode 1 when he was dangling over the pit' then would you admit he wasnt taunting? Show me one other example where he taunted his opponet. I can show you many where he didn't. Even when they were defenseless and had caused him lots of grief. Even when they gave him a good fight and he wanted to kill them. He never taunted his opponet. 6. It does count. It was expected and required of him to kill Anakin. He walked away from him when he could have delivered a killing blow. because he didnt do that, anakin lived and eventually came back to the light. Give me some examples of Anakin saving Obi. They said he saved him 9 times, surely you can name me 5 timesin the films that Anakin aved Obi? 7. 'This quote sums up completely and totally why you people are a waste of time. ' You called me a waste of time. Definition- it is a waste of time to be conversing with you people, my time could be better used elsewhere. That is a rude remark to me, I just asked if we are such a waste, why continue it? edit- Note, alot of what you read is hard to gauge because it's type. I dont mean to sound snide or hurtful, but you may see it lke that because it's type and you cant gauge emotion by type. But that textbook line was harsh, and I am sorry. Alley- A. I showed you two. Give me some examples of Anakin saving Obi. Shown on film, not mentioned in a conversation. I can think of 2. B. Actually, I said apprentice, not padawan. Webster definies apprentice as- 'one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling' Which Anakin was doing. He wasn't a Padawan anymore, but he was still learningfrom Obi-Wan how to be a good Jedi Knight. That is true, undisputed fact. He called him Master, and he took advice from him. C. A youngling is one of the best in the order. maybe number 4006, but still one of. Which number is Qui-Gon? He didnt defeat Qui is a push battle. Force push is a power known to all force users. Both dark and light. It is by power, not tricks of any kind. Obi matched power with Anakin at that time. He could match Maul. And Maul was the apprentice of Sidious. He was not a Sith Lord. He was called one, but that was when they didn't know whether he was the Master or Apprentice. Not everything in LoE is canon. I'm sorry, but the 'Triad of Evil' blew that book out of the water for me. Opinion is different from fact.
-HD-YaebGinn posted: a) Anakin Fans blaming other characters for Anakins fall. b) Them saying Anakin could beat most every other charatcer (including ace Windu) c) Them saying Grievous and Maul sucked and thats how Obi beat them. d) Them saying Obi-Wan cheated, didnt love Anakin enough and killed him out of cold blood, or got lucky. He loved Anakin more. He never flipped out at Anakin, never said he hated him. He had too much heart to even finish him off. And to warn him not to try it.
