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Topic:
Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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RamRed
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
9/22/07 11:36pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
RamRed posted:
As such I think Anakin is generally a good Jedi, but he can never be a pure one.
I see no reason for Anakin to try to become a "pure" Jedi. In fact, I believe that no such Jedi Knight or Master had existed.
Because trying to better oneself is an admirable quality?
But to become a "pure" Jedi? C'mon! Let's be realistic here! Not one Jedi in the entire Saga was pure. Not one. Why on earth would you expect Anakin to become pure? Because he was the "Chosen One"? Please! This expectation of perfection seems a bit illusional. Even for a fictional character.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/22/07 11:58pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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RamRed posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
RamRed posted:
As such I think Anakin is generally a good Jedi, but he can never be a pure one.
I see no reason for Anakin to try to become a "pure" Jedi. In fact, I believe that no such Jedi Knight or Master had existed.
Because trying to better oneself is an admirable quality?
But to become a "pure" Jedi? C'mon! Let's be realistic here! Not one Jedi in the entire Saga was pure. Not one. Why on earth would you expect Anakin to become pure? Because he was the "Chosen One"? Please! This expectation of perfection seems a bit illusional. Even for a fictional character.
It's the ideal of the entire Order. If Anakin had a problem with that(which he doesn't seem to) he should have left the Order.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:42am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Being a pure Jedi means that they have to be unattached. That they can love compassionately and not let fear, anger, hate and greed dictate their lives. Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Yoda and eventually Anakin all reach that point. That's what a pure Jedi is. Anakin chose to let these emotions control him and he fails because of it. He knows that they were wrong, but he chooses to ignore them. He is damned for it.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:43am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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1000Faces posted:
Anakin's appearance as a Force ghost at the end of the saga is hard to justify logically.
Really. 
1. Force ghosting is a learned Force skill, not "Jedi heaven".
2. Qui-Gon learned the technique from a Shaman of the Whills.
3. Yoda and Obi-Wan learned the technique from Qui-Gon.
4. Anakin learned the technique from Yoda and Obi-Wan.
Any questions?
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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1000Faces
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:46am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/23/07 11:59am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
1000Faces
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Master_Starwalker posted:
True, but that's why I noted in the first post that I'm not questioning he was a very powerful Jedi, he certainly was. However, 'wars not make one great.' The measure of a Jedi isn't how many Sith he can kill, it's his wisdom and how in tune he is with the Force. There's a reason many view Qui-Gon to be the greatest Jedi of the Prequels when he doesn't kill a single Sith.
My point wasn't about Anakin's power or potential power, I just linked Anakin's character and emotional state to that as I thought it was an interesting point that touches on many issues in the saga. I'm sorry if that caused any confusion.
What I was saying is that ultimately Anakin doesn't live up to the ideals of jedi (quite spectacularly by becoming a Sith). In the movies we see him fail to live up to the ideals of the Jedi on a number of occasions. However, I think that the movies necessarily show Anakin at crisis points in his life. These are the pivotal moments in his path to becoming Darth Vader. My impression, FWIW, is that Anakin is generally seen as being a good Jedi most of the intervening time, not just a good fighter.
In my opinion, for all their flaws, the Jedi Councl are meant to be seen as wise and Obi Wan believes that it won't be long before they choose to make Anakin a Master in RotS. For this reason I think we are meant to believe that Anakin is a good Jedi in most respects. Of course he doesn't live up to their ideals in all respects (his marriage carries on throughout the period from AotC to RotS). Nonetheless I think that his personal history placed him in a disadvantageous position compared with other Jedi and he was placed under enormous pressure, under which he cracked. Even Mace Windu, one of the order's greatest masters, attempts to break the Jedi code by murdering Palpatine when faced with a difficult situation (and the Council collectively breaks it by having Anakin spy on Palpatine). Mind you, none of them ended up murdering children.
My view is that obviously Anakin doesn't live up to the ideal but that he is probably no worse most of the time than the average Jedi and is probably meant to be seen as well above average in most respects if the council regard him so highly. I don't think Anakin is meant to be a bad Jedi, just a flawed one.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Yes, Anakin was indeed a flawed Jedi. He has flaws which does him in, as Lucas says. However, Anakin finally reaches the point where he can become the Jedi that he should've been, when he saves his son. He finally understands where he went wrong and why he did. He understands it all now. That is why Obi-wan and Yoda choose to help him upon his death to retain his identity. He has given up his attachments and become compassionate, the very trademarks of being a Jedi.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 12:16pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/23/07 12:16pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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1000Faces posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
True, but that's why I noted in the first post that I'm not questioning he was a very powerful Jedi, he certainly was. However, 'wars not make one great.' The measure of a Jedi isn't how many Sith he can kill, it's his wisdom and how in tune he is with the Force. There's a reason many view Qui-Gon to be the greatest Jedi of the Prequels when he doesn't kill a single Sith.
My point wasn't about Anakin's power or potential power, I just linked Anakin's character and emotional state to that as I thought it was an interesting point that touches on many issues in the saga. I'm sorry if that caused any confusion.
What I was saying is that ultimately Anakin doesn't live up to the ideals of jedi (quite spectacularly by becoming a Sith). In the movies we see him fail to live up to the ideals of the Jedi on a number of occasions. However, I think that the movies necessarily show Anakin at crisis points in his life. These are the pivotal moments in his path to becoming Darth Vader. My impression, FWIW, is that Anakin is generally seen as being a good Jedi most of the intervening time, not just a good fighter.
In my opinion, for all their flaws, the Jedi Councl are meant to be seen as wise and Obi Wan believes that it won't be long before they choose to make Anakin a Master in RotS. For this reason I think we are meant to believe that Anakin is a good Jedi in most respects. Of course he doesn't live up to their ideals in all respects (his marriage carries on throughout the period from AotC to RotS). Nonetheless I think that his personal history placed him in a disadvantageous position compared with other Jedi and he was placed under enormous pressure, under which he cracked. Even Mace Windu, one of the order's greatest masters, attempts to break the Jedi code by murdering Palpatine when faced with a difficult situation (and the Council collectively breaks it by having Anakin spy on Palpatine). Mind you, none of them ended up murdering children.
My view is that obviously Anakin doesn't live up to the ideal but that he is probably no worse most of the time than the average Jedi and is probably meant to be seen as well above average in most respects if the council regard him so highly. I don't think Anakin is meant to be a bad Jedi, just a flawed one.
Ah alright, yeah I think you're right though I think he may be more flawed than many of the Jedi. I'd also argue against the idea that spying on the Chancellor and Mace's attempt to kill him are against the Code.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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1000Faces
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 12:42pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I think he may be more flawed than many of the Jedi.
Actually I'd agree with that (though as mentioned earlier, there are reasons in his background why he'd be more flawed). I think it raises the interesting idea that Anakin's flaws lead to his downfall (and to a number of failures), rather than making him a bad Jedi all of the time. One of the scenes I like, which many don't, is when Anakin goes to see Yoda about his dreams. Yoda gives him the perfect advice for a monk, the perfect advice for a Jedi, but Anakin hasn't been a monk for a long time so it's the worst advice he could hear (from his perspective).
Master_Starwalker posted:
I'd also argue against the idea that spying on the Chancellor and Mace's attempt to kill him are against the Code.
I can't recall the precise quotes, but these incidents are clearly shown to be ethically dubious by the Jedi's own standards. Obi Wan doesn't approve of the council's collective decision either. Anakin is clearly really disappointed in the council about the spying and it leaves him without a lifeline to the supposed models he is aspiring to emulate. That's why Palpatine is able to play on it in the opera house ('All those who gain power... etc). Anakin makes it plain that killing an unarmed opponent, as Mace tries to, is 'not the Jedi way'. Anakin has commited the same sin, but seeing Mace do it seems to prove that the lines are blurred as Palpatine had said and undermines Anakin's belief in the 'selflessness' of the Jedi and their commitment to 'unconditional love'.
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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1000Faces posted:
Obi Wan doesn't approve of the council's collective decision either.
but was his disapproval based on the idea of spying on the Chancellor, or because it was Anakin that they wanted to be the spy? There is a difference between disapproving of the plan out of principle, and disapproving because of who they wanted to do it.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 12:56pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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1000Faces posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
I think he may be more flawed than many of the Jedi.
Actually I'd agree with that (though as mentioned earlier, there are reasons in his background why he'd be more flawed). I think it raises the interesting idea that Anakin's flaws lead to his downfall (and to a number of failures), rather than making him a bad Jedi all of the time. One of the scenes I like, which many don't, is when Anakin goes to see Yoda about his dreams. Yoda gives him the perfect advice for a monk, the perfect advice for a Jedi, but Anakin hasn't been a monk for a long time so it's the worst advice he could hear (from his perspective).
I love that scene personally because as you say Yoda is giving him the Jedi response, but it's not what Anakin wants to hear. He wants to learn to save Padme, not to learn to let her go.
1000Faces posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
I'd also argue against the idea that spying on the Chancellor and Mace's attempt to kill him are against the Code.
I can't recall the precise quotes, but these incidents are clearly shown to be ethically dubious by the Jedi's own standards. Obi Wan doesn't approve of the council's collective decision either. Anakin is clearly really disappointed in the council about the spying and it leaves him without a lifeline to the supposed models he is aspiring to emulate. That's why Palpatine is able to play on it in the opera house ('All those who gain power... etc). Anakin makes it plain that killing an unarmed opponent, as Mace tries to, is 'not the Jedi way'. Anakin has commited the same sin, but seeing Mace do it seems to prove that the lines are blurred as Palpatine had said and undermines Anakin's belief in the 'selflessness' of the Jedi and their commitment to 'unconditional love'.
Obi-Wan's reservations about spying seemed to me to be more that he didn't want to force Anakin to choose between the Jedi and Palpatine because he was completely aware of how close Anakin was to the Chancellor.
As for Anakin saying "It's not the Jedi way!" that in my mind is simply Skywalker not understanding the situation and hoping that he can get Mace to relent. Palpatine wasn't unarmed. He was still fully capable of using Force Lightning as he shows and that makes him still incredibly dangerous. He lost his lightsaber, but that was never Sidious's greatest weapon anyway. His greatest weapons were the Force and young Skywalker.
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 2:26pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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QFT. Anakin "saved" Sidious from Mace Windu NOT out of some new-found concern for the Jedi Code, but because he, Anakin Skywalker, personally needed Sidious alive. It had nothing at all to do with Mace, Anakin wasn't trying to talk Mace out of killing Sidious because it was the right thing to do, he was trying to talk Mace out of it because he personally had something to gain by Sidious's survival. He couldn't tell Mace that, of course, so he had to try to go the "Its not the Jedi way" route. But, as you point out, Sidious is hardly defenseless. If Mace had killed him (assuming he could) Mace would have been justified in doing it, and not violating the Code at all. Sidious had already demonstrated in that fight that even without a lightsaber he was quite capable of unleashing lethal power, so Mace would not have been striking down a helpless defeated opponent, thats Anakin's deal. Anakin's motivation for coming to Sidious's rescue had nothing to do with Jedi principles, and everything to do with his own selfish desires.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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1000Faces
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 4:06pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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I agree with much that Master_Starwalker and Darth_Davi say. On the face of things Mace does make the right decision. Sidious is too dangerous to live. Especially for the reasons Mace gives actually, because he has control of the senate and the courts. He can wriggle out of a trial easily and then they're back where they started without the element of surprise (they may never have had this in reality as Sidious probably wanted the confrontation in order to complete Anakin's turn). Anakin is motivated by self-interest. However, Mace is still breaking the ethical standards of the Jedi, when faced with a tough decision admittedly(but Anakin has tough decisions too), but heis breaking them and that's probaby why he feels the need to justify himself. I also think that Anakin had already made his choice (in the scene where he and Padme stare across the city towards each other) though he hadn't really realised it yet.
Anyway, when Mace decides to kill Sidious he doesn't realise what effect this will have on Anakin, or that it is Anakin's turn that is the most important thing that can happen here. In the opera scene Palpatine has blurred Anakin's view of right and wrong regarding the Sith and the Jedi. Mace's actions confirm this for Anakin, just as the council's mission for him had undermined it. Anakin feels forced to choose not only to seek the aid of a Sith lord but to actually aid in the murder of a Jedi and thus make a seemingly irrevocable move to the Dark Side. Mace could not have any idea how disastrous his actions were or what they could trigger, but they did move Anakin from making a very dubious decision into making a catastrophic one. Padme is the bait, Mace is the trigger (or hook if you wish to continue the angling metaphor). If Mace had stuck to the Jedi's ethical ideals Anakin wouldn't have been pushed to such a radical move (over the edge) and the Jedi might have survived in more substantial numbers.
Regarding Obi Wan and the Council it is undoubtedly ambiguous but my own impression is that Kenobi doesn't approve of the spying (though he understands the need for it)as well as being concerned for Anakin's feelings. Mace only seems concerned about Anakin's loyalty, though this may be an unfair view of him as he doesn't discuss it in that way. My impression is that neither they nor Yoda think the spying is a good idea (for whatever reasons)so presumably they were outvoted by the rest of the council.
Incidentally, Anakin's concern for the Jedi's ideals is not 'newfound'. He may not have always lived up to them but he was concerned about them. He says as much after killing Dooku, in AotC 'I'm a Jedi I know I'm better than this', and in RotS 'I want more, and I know I shouldnt'. Anakin is confused and guilty about his failings.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 4:09pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Yeah, Anakin is fully aware and disappointed with the fact that he's not living up to the Jedi's ideals. It's a large part about why he's tragic. I mean as he says in RotS "Something's happening, I'm not the Jedi I should be."
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AnnLouise
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 6:26pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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1000Faces posted:
Incidentally, Anakin's concern for the Jedi's ideals is not 'newfound'. He may not have always lived up to them but he was concerned about them. He says as much after killing Dooku, in AotC 'I'm a Jedi I know I'm better than this', and in RotS 'I want more, and I know I shouldnt'. Anakin is confused and guilty about his failings.
Anakin wasn't "bad from the start", but that doesn't mean he wasn't a failure as a Jedi. A person can get 100% on the final exam(killing the Emperor) and still fail the class(embracing the DS).
He knew enough to sense what was happening to his conscience, his soul, but not strong enough to recognize the Emperor's BS.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 6:29pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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AnnLouise posted:
1000Faces posted:
Incidentally, Anakin's concern for the Jedi's ideals is not 'newfound'. He may not have always lived up to them but he was concerned about them. He says as much after killing Dooku, in AotC 'I'm a Jedi I know I'm better than this', and in RotS 'I want more, and I know I shouldnt'. Anakin is confused and guilty about his failings.
Anakin wasn't "bad from the start", but that doesn't mean he wasn't a failure as a Jedi. A person can get 100% on the final exam(killing the Emperor) and still fail the class(embracing the DS).
He knew enough to sense what was happening to his conscience, his soul, but not strong enough to recognize the Emperor's BS.
Exactly.
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