| Author |
Topic:
Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
RamRed
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
9/23/07 8:36pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/23/07 8:38pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
RamRed
|
Master_Starwalker posted:
RamRed posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
[quote=RamRed]As such I think Anakin is generally a good Jedi, but he can never be a pure one.
I see no reason for Anakin to try to become a "pure" Jedi. In fact, I believe that no such Jedi Knight or Master had existed.
Because trying to better oneself is an admirable quality?
But to become a "pure" Jedi? C'mon! Let's be realistic here! Not one Jedi in the entire Saga was pure. Not one. Why on earth would you expect Anakin to become pure? Because he was the "Chosen One"? Please! This expectation of perfection seems a bit illusional. Even for a fictional character.
It's the ideal of the entire Order. If Anakin had a problem with that(which he doesn't seem to) he should have left the Order.[/quote]
I agree. But I also believe that the Jedi Order should have never harbored the illusion that they were "ideal" in the first place. I recall the conversation at the opera in which Anakin had described the Jedi as "selfless". I nearly laughed at the scene. Only the Jedi could have described the Order in that manner to Anakin. Not only did it tell me that Anakin had harbored illusions about the Jedi Order. It told me that the other Jedi had harbored illusions about themselves.
Did Anakin fail as a Jedi? If he had, he wasn't alone. I believe that during the PT, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace and many others had also failed as Jedi, even if they didn't become Sith Lords.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
9/23/07 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/23/07 8:44pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
|
RamRed posted:
I agree. But I also believe that the Jedi Order should have never harbored the illusion that they were "ideal" in the first place. I recall the conversation at the opera in which Anakin had described the Jedi as "selfless". I nearly laughed at the scene. Only the Jedi could have described the Order in that manner to Anakin. Not only did it tell me that Anakin had harbored illusions about the Jedi Order. It told me that the other Jedi had harbored illusions about themselves.
That wasn't an illusion. That was the truth.
RamRed posted:
Did Anakin fail as a Jedi? If he had, he wasn't alone. I believe that during the PT, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace and many others had also failed as Jedi, even if they didn't become Sith Lords.
I'm not sure I agree that they failed as Jedi. They stuck to their ideals and did what they could against the Sith. You don't have to win to be a Jedi afterall, you just have to act like one.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
9/23/07 8:44pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
RamRed posted:
But I also believe that the Jedi Order should have never harbored the illusion that they were "ideal" in the first place. I recall the conversation at the opera in which Anakin had described the Jedi as "selfless". I nearly laughed at the scene. Only the Jedi could have described the Order in that manner to Anakin. Not only did it tell me that Anakin had harbored illusions about the Jedi Order. It told me that the other Jedi had harbored illusions about themselves.
Did Anakin fail as a Jedi? If he had, he wasn't alone. I believe that during the PT, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace and many others had also failed as Jedi, even if they didn't become Sith Lords.
The Jedi were selfless. That's not an illusion. In what way were they not selfless ( other than Anakin )? In what way did the PT Jedi fail as Jedi?
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
RamRed
Registered:
May '02
|
Date Posted:
9/23/07 8:53pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
|
Ah yes! I should have known that others would respond with comments that the Jedi were "selfless" or that their mistakes were minor or such. The "idealization" of the Jedi Order continues on.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
9/23/07 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
|
I ask again: in what way were they not selfless? Or is it that you can't handle the idea of selfless characters, even in a fantasy?
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
9/23/07 8:58pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/23/07 8:59pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
|
RamRed posted:
Ah yes! I should have known that others would respond with comments that the Jedi were "selfless" or that their mistakes were minor or such. The "idealization" of the Jedi Order continues on.
That's simply a strawman as no one is arguing the Jedi were perfect just that they were selfless.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
|
Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:05pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
|
Selfless means that they don't care about themselves, they care about others. What way were they selfless? Because Mace said that the Jedi Order is to survive, that means that they're selfish. Nope. That means that they know that Palpatine's ultimate goal will be their destruction. Because they tried to stop Palpatine at all? Because they fought in the Clone Wars?
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
1000Faces
Registered:
Sep '07
|
Date Posted:
9/24/07 1:06pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
AnnLouise posted:
Anakin wasn't "bad from the start", but that doesn't mean he wasn't a failure as a Jedi. A person can get 100% on the final exam(killing the Emperor) and still fail the class(embracing the DS).
He knew enough to sense what was happening to his conscience, his soul, but not strong enough to recognize the Emperor's BS.
Not sure if you intended to, but your statement could be taken to imply that I thought Anakin was a success as a Jedi. I hope my previous posts in this thread have made clear that I think that becoming a Sith is the most definitive way in which one can fail as a Jedi. I have merely made an additional argument regarding one possible alternative way to interpret this thread's title. That is, whether Anakin was generally meant to be good Jedi during the period he was one. In that respect I think he is generally meant to be thought of as having been a good one, though very much flawed.
Obi Wan, Yoda and Mace may have failed to live up to Jedi ideals in individual circumstances but they are obviously meant to be good Jedi and should probably be seen as a succes in that respect. Collectively though the Jedi Order fails. Its' job is to defend peace and justice in the galaxy which they fail to do as the Sith take control of the galaxy. OTOH I thnk that the Order is supposed to have been failing for a long time. Like Lucas's ANH novelisation says in the prologue, the Republic was like a great tree that had rotted from within.It had become corrupt, so evidently while the Jedi had managed to protect it superficially they hadn't managed to uphold justice to the degree they would have liked. I think this is an important element of the whole saga. The galaxy needs to be purged (including the Jedi)in order for it to thrive once more and the important values to be fought for and truly appreciated by the people themselves. The populace have let the Jedi and droids fight their battles for them too long. With the Rebel Alliance the populace must fight for their own ideal society and learn its value by shedding their own blood. It's a cycle of history that has come to an end.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
1000Faces
Registered:
Sep '07
|
Date Posted:
9/28/07 10:30am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/28/07 10:32am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
1000Faces
|
Master_Starwalker posted:
I'd also argue against the idea that spying on the Chancellor and Mace's attempt to kill him are against the Code.
I watched RotS again today (it was great, again!). Anyway I noticed that Anakin clearly states that being asked to spy on the chancellor is against the Jedi code (when he's talking to Obi Wan). Regarding killing unarmed opponents it is only said to be against the Jedi 'way' (on both occasions)which is obviously much vaguer. I don't think these details affect the subject of this thread, but it's nice to get our facts straight for future reference. I realise that this could come across as factual one upmanship so please don't get that impression as I was not sure originally about who said exactly what either. I've merely had the benefit of having just watched the movie!
Cheers.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
9/28/07 11:27am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
Oh I didn't take it as oneupsmanship at all. It's been awhile since I've watched the movie. That is interesting though that Anakin says spying on the Chancellor is against the Code whereas Mace's attempt to kill the Chancellor is just against the Jedi 'way.'
I'm still not sure I think Anakin is right about it being against the Code, though I'm not sure which part he'd think it would violate. The Jedi 'way' makes perfect sense though since he believes that Palpatine is unarmed and the Jedi don't believe in killing an unarmed opponent or executing their prisoners.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
|
Date Posted:
9/28/07 11:44am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
Not only that, but Anakin totally has a brain fart in the Chancellor's office...he forgets that he just saw Palpatine shoot electricity out of his hands not a minute earlier, meaning he wasn't harmless, wasn't helpless, wasn't without weapons. For Anakin to forget that tiny little detail when he admonishes Mace for attempting to kill Palpatine makes me wonder exactly how good his memory is...
I have said it before, Anakin saves Palpatine for his own selfish reasons, claiming it was against the Jedi way is not only wrong, as Palpatine was clearly not helpless, it was also just an excuse so he can get what HE wants, not what is in the best interests of the galaxy. Mace was absolutely correct to attempt to kill Palpatine in that scene.
-----signature-----
What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
|
Date Posted:
9/28/07 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
|
Mace's cut dialogue about Skywalker killing Dooku was sweet.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
o[[]|[ooooooooooo]|[0]|[|]|[
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
9/28/07 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
|
Where was this?
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
|
Date Posted:
9/28/07 4:59pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/28/07 5:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SithStarSlayer
|
In a thread I started "MACE WINDU: Yes, I can. I have to" where I spoiled the 3SA on that part of the scene. The thread was archived when the 3SA merged with the PT forum. I actually got it from a top dawg in a once in a lifetime online conversation, and because I wouldn't give up the source, I got flamed to no end. Ternian, er Motee even had to retract his denouncement, and the best part is he used it on MF.com.
EDIT: I just dug it up again, here ya go.
ANAKIN
Wait!
(beat)
Don't kill him -- you can't just kill him, Master.
MACE WINDU
Yes, I can. I have to.
ANAKIN
You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial.
MACE WINDU
A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate.
ANAKIN
So are you going to kill all them too? Like he said you would?
MACE
(yanking his arm free)
He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?
ANAKIN
(no emotion)
That was different.
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
o[[]|[ooooooooooo]|[0]|[|]|[
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
|
Date Posted:
9/28/07 5:27pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
|
|
That sounds like it comes right out of the novel.
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
