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Topic:
Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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That's cause it is. The next line is "You can explain the difference after he's dead."
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
9/29/07 5:26am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Bingo.
And the source at teh time was from a revised script. (At least thats what I was told)  The movie got edited down a bit, but the novel was left unchanged.
After I posted that, I got sent a PM that I would never be given another spoiler.
Like I cared? What's the point of hording stuff like that on a spoiler-board anyway?
Spoilerific told me to give it to the people. 
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
9/29/07 10:52am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Bingo.
And the source at teh time was from a revised script. (At least thats what I was told) The movie got edited down a bit, but the novel was left unchanged.
So the script was edited down too? Even though the novel seems to be based on the shooting script, there's supposedly a "revised script" somewhere out there that's identical to the novel?
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/29/07 10:58am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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There's the first draft which Lucas worked on for a year. This draft was revised by Tom Stoppard before filming began on ROTS. This was revised again with changes made in 2003, during filming. After Lucas made additional changes for the 2004 pick-ups/reshoots, what was finally released was based on the film. The script, that is. The ROTS novelization was based on the shooting script and what was released publically. The rest of the material was stuff that Stover came up with on his own to expand on key scenes.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/30/07 5:49pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
9/30/07 5:49pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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Darth_Davi posted:
Not only that, but Anakin totally has a brain fart in the Chancellor's office...he forgets that he just saw Palpatine shoot electricity out of his hands not a minute earlier, meaning he wasn't harmless, wasn't helpless, wasn't without weapons. For Anakin to forget that tiny little detail when he admonishes Mace for attempting to kill Palpatine makes me wonder exactly how good his memory is...
I have said it before, Anakin saves Palpatine for his own selfish reasons, claiming it was against the Jedi way is not only wrong, as Palpatine was clearly not helpless, it was also just an excuse so he can get what HE wants, not what is in the best interests of the galaxy. Mace was absolutely correct to attempt to kill Palpatine in that scene.
Precisely.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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RamRed
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
9/30/07 7:46pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
RamRed posted:
I agree. But I also believe that the Jedi Order should have never harbored the illusion that they were "ideal" in the first place. I recall the conversation at the opera in which Anakin had described the Jedi as "selfless". I nearly laughed at the scene. Only the Jedi could have described the Order in that manner to Anakin. Not only did it tell me that Anakin had harbored illusions about the Jedi Order. It told me that the other Jedi had harbored illusions about themselves.
That wasn't an illusion. That was the truth.
RamRed posted:
Did Anakin fail as a Jedi? If he had, he wasn't alone. I believe that during the PT, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace and many others had also failed as Jedi, even if they didn't become Sith Lords.
I'm not sure I agree that they failed as Jedi. They stuck to their ideals and did what they could against the Sith. You don't have to win to be a Jedi afterall, you just have to act like one.
I believe they had failed as Jedi Knights and Masters . . . just as Anakin had failed.
I think that too many people want to believe that the only cause of the Jedi's downfall was external . . . namely the machinations of Palpatine and Anakin's decision to betray the Jedi and become Palpatine's apprentice. But I believe that Palpatine would have never achieved his goal of bringing down the Jedi without their help. It seemed to me that their own flaws and inability to be aware of these flaws gave Palpatine the opportunity to destroy the Order.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/30/07 7:50pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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RamRed posted:
I believe they had failed as Jedi Knights and Masters . . . just as Anakin had failed.
I think that too many people want to believe that the only cause of the Jedi's downfall was external . . . namely the machinations of Palpatine and Anakin's decision to betray the Jedi and become Palpatine's apprentice. But I believe that Palpatine would have never achieved his goal of bringing down the Jedi without their help. It seemed to me that their own flaws and inability to be aware of these flaws gave Palpatine the opportunity to destroy the Order.
Anakin's betrayal had nothing to do with the Order's decisions though. It was simply because of his greed and in ability to accept that Padme's death was out of his control. The only decision the Jedi could have made to keep Skywalker from 'selling his soul to the devil' would have been to say they could save Padme even though they had no way to save her. The Jedi were by no means perfect, but their main flaw was that they were far too loyal to the Republic.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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RamRed
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
9/30/07 7:58pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
RamRed posted:
I believe they had failed as Jedi Knights and Masters . . . just as Anakin had failed.
I think that too many people want to believe that the only cause of the Jedi's downfall was external . . . namely the machinations of Palpatine and Anakin's decision to betray the Jedi and become Palpatine's apprentice. But I believe that Palpatine would have never achieved his goal of bringing down the Jedi without their help. It seemed to me that their own flaws and inability to be aware of these flaws gave Palpatine the opportunity to destroy the Order.
Anakin's betrayal had nothing to do with the Order's decisions though. It was simply because of his greed and in ability to accept that Padme's death was out of his control. The only decision the Jedi could have made to keep Skywalker from 'selling his soul to the devil' would have been to say they could save Padme even though they had no way to save her. The Jedi were by no means perfect, but their main flaw was that they were far too loyal to the Republic.
But the Jedi were just as responsible for their failures and bad decisions as Anakin was responsible for his. And I believe that the Jedi were responsible for giving Palpatine to opportunity to bring about their downfall.
I think that too many people fail to remember the old adage about "You are your worst enemy." Anakin was his worst enemy. Palpatine was his worst enemy. And I believe that the Jedi were their own worst enemies. I find it a little sad that so many fans want to believe that the Jedi were perfect and incapable of any flaws (unless that Jedi was Mace Windu). This desire to believe that the Jedi were so ideal and perfect seems a little sad to me. And I think that many fans are so blinded by this that in the end, they failed to understand what Lucas was trying to say. They would prefer to believe in the old image of the perfect Jedi from the OT than see that the Jedi were never perfect. Because they want to believe that their heroes were perfect . . . even if those heroes were fictional characters. Rather sad.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/30/07 8:41pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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RamRed posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
RamRed posted:
I believe they had failed as Jedi Knights and Masters . . . just as Anakin had failed.
I think that too many people want to believe that the only cause of the Jedi's downfall was external . . . namely the machinations of Palpatine and Anakin's decision to betray the Jedi and become Palpatine's apprentice. But I believe that Palpatine would have never achieved his goal of bringing down the Jedi without their help. It seemed to me that their own flaws and inability to be aware of these flaws gave Palpatine the opportunity to destroy the Order.
Anakin's betrayal had nothing to do with the Order's decisions though. It was simply because of his greed and in ability to accept that Padme's death was out of his control. The only decision the Jedi could have made to keep Skywalker from 'selling his soul to the devil' would have been to say they could save Padme even though they had no way to save her. The Jedi were by no means perfect, but their main flaw was that they were far too loyal to the Republic.
But the Jedi were just as responsible for their failures and bad decisions as Anakin was responsible for his. And I believe that the Jedi were responsible for giving Palpatine to opportunity to bring about their downfall.
I agree and I think the way they did this was by being overly loyal to the Republic, but that doesn't mean that the Jedi bear as much responsibility as the man who lead the 501st Stormtrooper Legion's sack of the Jedi Temple, killed a leading member of the Jedi Council, slaughtered Younglings, killed other Jedi, and helped establish the Empire.
RamRed posted:
I think that too many people fail to remember the old adage about "You are your worst enemy." Anakin was his worst enemy. Palpatine was his worst enemy. And I believe that the Jedi were their own worst enemies. I find it a little sad that so many fans want to believe that the Jedi were perfect and incapable of any flaws (unless that Jedi was Mace Windu). This desire to believe that the Jedi were so ideal and perfect seems a little sad to me. And I think that many fans are so blinded by this that in the end, they failed to understand what Lucas was trying to say. They would prefer to believe in the old image of the perfect Jedi from the OT than see that the Jedi were never perfect. Because they want to believe that their heroes were perfect . . . even if those heroes were fictional characters. Rather sad.
That's why I specifically said "The Jedi were by no means perfect, but their main flaw was that they were far too loyal to the Republic." I'm not arguing that the Jedi can or did do no wrong.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
10/1/07 11:38am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Anakin's betrayal had nothing to do with the Order's decisions though. It was simply because of his greed and in ability to accept that Padme's death was out of his control. The only decision the Jedi could have made to keep Skywalker from 'selling his soul to the devil' would have been to say they could save Padme even though they had no way to save her. The Jedi were by no means perfect, but their main flaw was that they were far too loyal to the Republic.
Indeed. No one says that they were perfect, but they were right here. They trained Anakin as well as can be. It was up to Anakin to adhere to his training. He mocks the memory of his mother with his actions. He acts because he is greedy and selfish, a result of Palpatine's influence.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/1/07 11:48am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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He mocks the memory of his mother with his actions.
--Yet his Muun-father would have been very proud. 
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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hoogle
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
10/3/07 9:15am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Much of the failure of Anakin is inferred in the fireplace scene with Padme, which is a scene that alot of people seem to think is the worst in the prequels...... This is because alot of people don't get the prequels.
The scene illustrates both the failure of Obi's training and behind that, of the Jedi orders failings and also Anakin's weaknesses that would undo him more and more down the track to becoming a Sith.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/3/07 9:20am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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There's nothing in that scene that shows anything wrong with the Jedi.
-----signature-----
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/3/07 11:17am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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But on the other side of the coin it does. That scene illustrates that a Jedi, any Jedi can form attachments. Anakin attaches himself to the idea of being with Padme, Yoda is attached to the old Jedi ways, Mace is attached to the Republic. (Yeah I left out Kenobi, because the only thing he was attached to was the OT)
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
10/3/07 11:22am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Anakin's not attached to the idea of being with Padme. He's attached to her period. Yoda, we don't know if we can call his inability to allow change as attachment. Mace being attached to the Republic is only mentioned in the novelization.
-----signature-----
Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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