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Topic:
Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/3/07 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
10/3/07 12:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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SithStarSlayer posted:
But on the other side of the coin it does. That scene illustrates that a Jedi, any Jedi can form attachments. Anakin attaches himself to the idea of being with Padme, Yoda is attached to the old Jedi ways, Mace is attached to the Republic. (Yeah I left out Kenobi, because the only thing he was attached to was the OT) 
All that shows is Anakin failing yet again to adhere to the Jedi's teachings. Mace's attempted defense of the Republic was a selfless gesture for the good of the galaxy so it imo doesn't qualify as an 'attatchment' as Lucas and the Jedi use it.
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"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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hoogle
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
10/3/07 7:15pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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The fireplace scene is hugely important in what the problems are in the story of Anakin for the prequel trilogy.
It's more than just the attachment thing, it's the whole juxtaposition of being a jedi against where Anakin is in his personal life; it shows that Obi and the jedi order as a whole has completely failed in helping Anakin merge the two in any kind of balanced way and consequently come to grips with being Anakin and a Jedi. There's no bridge established connecting the two, and as a result the Anakin side is really undeveloped and repressed.
How and why Anakin will end up internally as Darth Vader, the enforcer of the empire is explained in that scene and gets played out in the rest of the prequels.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
10/3/07 11:41pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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As I said, Obi-wan showed Anakin the path. It was up to him to follow it. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but he ignored it because he let his emotions rule him.
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came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
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hoogle
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Jan '04
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Date Posted:
10/4/07 7:17am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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darth-sinister posted:
As I said, Obi-wan showed Anakin the path.
Well he obviously didn't and the evidence for that is all through the second and third prequels. My previous post shows this, as the problems alluded to in that scene only get worse.
How can Obi have shown Anakin the path when he had no idea what direction Anakin was going down and the reasons why?
Also Anakin's emotions were not what ruled him, they were actually good but due to lack of skill they ended up being used against him. And the person directly charged with teaching Anakin those skills was Obi, and this inadequacy destroyed Anakin too.
The Jedi were doomed, Anakin or not, due to the machinations of Sidious. If he had ignored his feelings towards Padme, no Luke or Leia, no redemption for him and the jedi as a whole. His emotions were not the problem, it was the lack of training or reference in his environment to them, that made them into a liability, not the emotions themselves.
Yoda wasn't saying his emotions were bad near the end, but they did get twisted. Perhaps, if like Luke he had been given credit for them and instucted to develop them, not repress, by an older and wiser Obi; that they would have been an ally when it came to the crunch like Luke. Remember, it was Luke's insight going against what Obi said in destroying Vader, that finally won over Sidious, and that was in part from ole Obi's influence that brought that out in Luke.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/4/07 11:13am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
10/4/07 11:29am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SithStarSlayer
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darth-sinister posted:
Anakin's not attached to the idea of being with Padme. He's attached to her period. Yoda, we don't know if we can call his inability to allow change as attachment. Mace being attached to the Republic is only mentioned in the novelization.
I disagree. I think Yoda was attached to the IDEALS of the Old Jedi way. It is not really a reach as much as it is an abstract way of looking at forms of attachment. As for Mace and his attachment to the Republic, Novel or not it... is the truth. And lassst but not leassst AnaVader. It all started with the idea of being with her, its called lust. His lust is what turned into an obsession, and it was his obsession for control over her that led him to turn to Palpatine.
Master starwalker posted:
All that shows is Anakin failing yet again to adhere to the Jedi's teachings. Mace's attempted defense of the Republic was a selfless gesture for the good of the galaxy so it imo doesn't qualify as an 'attatchment' as Lucas and the Jedi use it.
Lucas defined something? Wait a week. There will be another quote that contradicts that soon enough.
Hoogle posted:
How can Obi have shown Anakin the path when he had no idea what direction Anakin was going down and the reasons why?
Also Anakin's emotions were not what ruled him, they were actually good but due to lack of skill they ended up being used against him. And the person directly charged with teaching Anakin those skills was Obi, and this inadequacy destroyed Anakin too.
I concur.
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
10/4/07 11:27am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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hoogle posted:
Well he obviously didn't and the evidence for that is all through the second and third prequels. My previous post shows this, as the problems alluded to in that scene only get worse. How can Obi have shown Anakin the path when he had no idea what direction Anakin was going down and the reasons why?
Obi-wan knew that Anakin's problems stem from his attachment issues, due to his late start. He's always been aware of them. He knew that he cared for his mother, for Padme and for Palpatine. But he also knew that if he was too emotionally involved, they could be his undoing. Obi-wan showed him how he can deal with situations that involve emotions. He taught Anakin that the key to everything is to let go of your fears and trust in the Force. Anakin wasn't willing to listen to this, because he refused to do that which is difficult in life. He always sought the quicker and easier path.
hoogle posted:
Also Anakin's emotions were not what ruled him, they were actually good but due to lack of skill they ended up being used against him. And the person directly charged with teaching Anakin those skills was Obi, and this inadequacy destroyed Anakin too.
The Jedi were doomed, Anakin or not, due to the machinations of Sidious. If he had ignored his feelings towards Padme, no Luke or Leia, no redemption for him and the jedi as a whole. His emotions were not the problem, it was the lack of training or reference in his environment to them, that made them into a liability, not the emotions themselves.
Yoda wasn't saying his emotions were bad near the end, but they did get twisted. Perhaps, if like Luke he had been given credit for them and instucted to develop them, not repress, by an older and wiser Obi; that they would have been an ally when it came to the crunch like Luke. Remember, it was Luke's insight going against what Obi said in destroying Vader, that finally won over Sidious, and that was in part from ole Obi's influence that brought that out in Luke.
His emotions were the problem. He let them guide his actions. His undoing is that he loved too much. He became obsessive and selfish. Greedy. He confused possessive love and compassionate love. Fear is everything and Anakin did not try to conquer his fears. Instead, he wrapped himself up inside of them. It also doesn't help that Anakin had a Sith Lord contradicting Obi-wan's teachings, unlike with Luke years later. And speaking of Anakin's kids, if he had mastered himself, he wouldn't need his children to bring him back from the dark side, because he wouldn't fall.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
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Master_Starwalker
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Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/4/07 2:19pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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SithStarSlayer posted:
Master starwalker posted:
All that shows is Anakin failing yet again to adhere to the Jedi's teachings. Mace's attempted defense of the Republic was a selfless gesture for the good of the galaxy so it imo doesn't qualify as an 'attatchment' as Lucas and the Jedi use it.
Lucas defined something? Wait a week. There will be another quote that contradicts that soon enough.
He hasn't himself but given that the Jedi forbid attatchment but not compassion shows that they seperate the two to a greater extent than most people do. Which given some of his quotes and that Vader's selflessness is what saves him I don't think Lucas intends for the viewer to think is unnatural.
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"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 9:27am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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darth-sinister posted:
Obi-wan knew that Anakin's problems stem from his attachment issues, due to his late start. He's always been aware of them. He knew that he cared for his mother, for Padme and for Palpatine. But he also knew that if he was too emotionally involved, they could be his undoing. Obi-wan showed him how he can deal with situations that involve emotions. He taught Anakin that the key to everything is to let go of your fears and trust in the Force. Anakin wasn't willing to listen to this, because he refused to do that which is difficult in life. He always sought the quicker and easier path.
All Obi-wan told Anakin is that "dreams pass in time" but it didn't because later on Anakin travels to Tatooine and finds his mother dead. When Anakin had the visions of Padme's death, he went to Yoda for help but he is given the same drivel that he got from Obi-wan which tells Anakin that he's going to lose Padme the same way he lost his mom. How can one learn to let go of their fears if they continue to have visions that become real later on? Obi-wan may have been aware of Anakin's attachment issues but he is ineffective on teaching him how to learn self-control.
darth-sinister posted:
His emotions were the problem. He let them guide his actions. His undoing is that he loved too much. He became obsessive and selfish. Greedy. He confused possessive love and compassionate love. Fear is everything and Anakin did not try to conquer his fears. Instead, he wrapped himself up inside of them. It also doesn't help that Anakin had a Sith Lord contradicting Obi-wan's teachings, unlike with Luke years later. And speaking of Anakin's kids, if he had mastered himself, he wouldn't need his children to bring him back from the dark side, because he wouldn't fall.
Anakin couldn't conquer his fears because he's always told by Obi-wan and the Council to be "mindful of his feelings" but to a normal person like Anakin, that only tells them to bottle their feelings which isn't healthy. Repressed emotions can lead to mental instability like the Incredible Hulk who turns into a giant green monster whenever he's angry and Jean Grey who became very destructive when she became the Phoenix. Jean used to have psychic barriers placed inside her mind by Prof. Xavier which allowed her to be in control of herself but once she evolved into the Phoenix, those barriers were broken which led her to be mentally unstable to the point where she kills Xavier, Cyclops, and a dozen military troops on Alcatraz.
The Jedi's outdated guidelines mixed with Palpatine's influence and Anakin's lack of self control are the real problem.
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 12:58pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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PMT99 posted:
All Obi-wan told Anakin is that "dreams pass in time" but it didn't because later on Anakin travels to Tatooine and finds his mother dead. When Anakin had the visions of Padme's death, he went to Yoda for help but he is given the same drivel that he got from Obi-wan which tells Anakin that he's going to lose Padme the same way he lost his mom. How can one learn to let go of their fears if they continue to have visions that become real later on? Obi-wan may have been aware of Anakin's attachment issues but he is ineffective on teaching him how to learn self-control.
They never said it was easy. Nothing in life is easy. But living in fear is not going to help as we see. Obi-wan taught Anakin what he needed to know, it's up to Anakin to follow through. If Padme dies, then that is her destiny. She's going to die no matter if he choked her, if she died in child birth or from old age. She's going to die. He has to accept that he cannot save her. People die and we cannot always stop it from happening. Anakin had to accept that in order to live a normal life. Because Anakin tried to stop Padme from dying, he kills her.
PMT99 posted:
Anakin couldn't conquer his fears because he's always told by Obi-wan and the Council to be "mindful of his feelings" but to a normal person like Anakin, that only tells them to bottle their feelings which isn't healthy. Repressed emotions can lead to mental instability like the Incredible Hulk who turns into a giant green monster whenever he's angry and Jean Grey who became very destructive when she became the Phoenix. Jean used to have psychic barriers placed inside her mind by Prof. Xavier which allowed her to be in control of herself but once she evolved into the Phoenix, those barriers were broken which led her to be mentally unstable to the point where she kills Xavier, Cyclops, and a dozen military troops on Alcatraz.
Jean Grey's powers made her unstable to begin with. If not for Magneto's device which broke her mental blocks, she wouldn't have gone off like she did. And the Hulk exists because Bruce Banner had a personality disorder. If Banner doesn't repress his anger, he will hurt and possibly kill people. That's the story of the Hulk. Bruce Banner trying to avoid letting his emotions free one of his multiple personalities.
PMT99 posted:
The Jedi's outdated guidelines mixed with Palpatine's influence and Anakin's lack of self control are the real problem.
The guidlines were fine because Luke followed them. He lets go of his fears and is able to become a Jedi and save his father. The Jedi never tell Anakin to repress his feelings. They tell him to let go of his fear. Fear is the path to the dark side. You cannot live your life in fear of something bad happening to you or yoru loved ones. And for a Jedi, whose powers increase based off of emotions such as fear and anger and hate, they must let them go and expell them from their lives. Just like the Green Lanterns have to let go of their fears and conquer them, in order to have their power rings work against Parallax and the Sinestro Corps. All of which use yellow, which is based on fear and renders their powers ineffectual.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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darth-sinister posted:
Just like the Green Lanterns have to let go of their fears and conquer them, in order to have their power rings work against Parallax and the Sinestro Corps. All of which use yellow, which is based on fear and renders their powers ineffectual.
Speaking of which, when the hell is DC gonna make a Green Lantern movie? They are giving us everyone else...I have long loved the character(s)
But, its a moot point. Being mindful of your feelings doesn't mean repress them, it means be aware of them. If one Jedi can train Luke to be a Jedi in a few months without problem, and Anakin can't do it in a decade, despite all of his talent, the fault lies with Anakin, not the Jedi. Luke had a few months at best with a single Jedi Master, and then spent years rebuilding the Jedi Order with little guidance, other than the holocrons and info from the Chu'Unthor, etc. Yet, despite the complete lack of resources Luke had in his training, he succeeds, while Anakin did not. If anyone was set up to fail at becoming a Jedi, it would have been Luke. Shortly before starting his training, he discovers that the only family he has ever known has been burned to death. He starts out with tragedy that could have easily explained Luke giving in to his anger at the Empire...but, Luke doesn't give in. Even without being taught to be mindful, he is mindful of his feelings. His family gets killed, but he is able to focus on the task at hand...find the Princess, get the Death Star plans to the Rebels, and blow the Death Star up. Luke didn't let the tragedy of Owen and Beru define him, Anakin lets the tragedy of Shmi and the potential tragedy of Padme define him. Luke finds out that Darth Vader, the man responsible for the death of his aunt and uncle, is really his father. That should have messed him up emotionally big time, making him extremely susceptible to the Dark Side...yet, Luke stands when he would have every excuse to fall. With everything that Luke went through, he would have been a prime candidate to fall to the Dark Side, yet, because he had the strength of character his father didn't, ends up being one of, if not the greatest Jedi Master of all time. If Luke could do it, despite the difficulties in his life, there is absolutely no reason Anakin couldn't have.
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It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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CHEVALIER_RYU
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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For me Anakin was a good Jedi.
Sure he wasn't as emotinally distant as he should have been. but in his opinion he was right to love Padmé. (remember the little speech about compation being the ultimate forme of love?)For him to be a good Jedi was to care for individuals wich enable you to really care about people as a group. Maybe he went a little too far but that was his way, his nature to feel everything deeply. You'll notice that there is not two Jedi who have the same interpretation of the code.
If Palpatine had left him alone He would never have turned. Padmé and Obi-Wa would have calmed him on his children issue and he would have gone on being the impulsive Jedi he allways was. And I don't think that was a bad thing, by being impulsive and emotive he balanced the rest of the order out. that the reason Obi-Wan and him were such a good team. Their strenghts and flaws completed each other.
One of the things I loved about ROTS is that what happens is everybody and nobody fault.
Palpatine could have chosen any young knight as a prey I think he was such a clever pupetmaster he would have susceeded.
Maybe Anakin wasn't a traditional Jedi but he was just as valuable. He had his faults, so did the others. They were just different faults.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 2:07pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
10/7/07 2:08pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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CHEVALIER_RYU posted:
For me Anakin was a good Jedi.
Sure he wasn't as emotinally distant as he should have been. but in his opinion he was right to love Padmé. (remember the little speech about compation being the ultimate forme of love?)For him to be a good Jedi was to care for individuals wich enable you to really care about people as a group. Maybe he went a little too far but that was his way, his nature to feel everything deeply. You'll notice that there is not two Jedi who have the same interpretation of the code.
If Palpatine had left him alone He would never have turned. Padmé and Obi-Wa would have calmed him on his children issue and he would have gone on being the impulsive Jedi he allways was. And I don't think that was a bad thing, by being impulsive and emotive he balanced the rest of the order out. that the reason Obi-Wan and him were such a good team. Their strenghts and flaws completed each other.
Yoda and Mace seem to have at least similar interpretations given that both think the Jedi Code justifies killing Palpatine. Anakin's speech that romantic love = compassion was completely inaccurate and was simply to assuage Padme of her (correct) belief that Jedi aren't allowed romantic love. Anakin of course goes on to demonstrate the reason that the Jedi have this rule in RotS.
I agree that it's why Anakin and Obi-Wan were a great team, but it's also what makes Anakin a bad Jedi. Impulsiveness is fine as long as it's coming from trusting the Force rather than simply lust for adventure or excitement. However being so heavily emotional is not healthy for a Jedi unless they can learn to control it as Mace Windu did.
CHEVALIER_RYU posted:
One of the things I loved about ROTS is that what happens is everybody and nobody fault.
Palpatine could have chosen any young knight as a prey I think he was such a clever pupetmaster he would have susceeded.
I don't know that I agree with that. A Jedi raised by the Order would be in general less susceptible. There has to be something he can use for him to seduce them. It's certainly possible that he could have corrupted someone raised by the Order as Dooku shows but they need to have an attribute that can be exploited, with Dooku it was his political idealism and belief that the Republic was corrupt. With Anakin it was his fear of loss and his greed.
CHEVALIER_RYU posted:
Maybe Anakin wasn't a traditional Jedi but he was just as valuable. He had his faults, so did the others. They were just different faults.
They did, but they had fewer and less severe faults.
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"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Yoda and Mace seem to have at least similar interpretations given that both think the Jedi Code justifies killing Palpatine. Anakin's speech that romantic love = compassion was completely inaccurate and was simply to assuage Padme of her (correct) belief that Jedi aren't allowed romantic love. Anakin of course goes on to demonstrate the reason that the Jedi have this rule in RotS.
Amen. Anakin was a horny 20 year old who was telling Padme what she wanted to hear so he could get into her pants. Gee...can't say I have never ever heard of that happening before...
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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AnnLouise
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 6:10pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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1000Faces posted:
AnnLouise posted:
Anakin wasn't "bad from the start", but that doesn't mean he wasn't a failure as a Jedi. A person can get 100% on the final exam(killing the Emperor) and still fail the class(embracing the DS).
He knew enough to sense what was happening to his conscience, his soul, but not strong enough to recognize the Emperor's BS.
Not sure if you intended to, but your statement could be taken to imply that I thought Anakin was a success as a Jedi. I hope my previous posts in this thread have made clear that I think that becoming a Sith is the most definitive way in which one can fail as a Jedi. I have merely made an additional argument regarding one possible alternative way to interpret this thread's title. That is, whether Anakin was generally meant to be good Jedi during the period he was one. In that respect I think he is generally meant to be thought of as having been a good one, though very much flawed.
I didn't mean to imply that. My bad  . That bit was just the one that prompted me to post my two cents.
And seeing Anakin as flawed, as someone who struggled to do what he knew was right but for a long time could not do it, makes him much more interesting as a character. Just as seeing the Jedi as, in the big picture, selfless doesn't equal thinking them to be perfect and without error.
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CHEVALIER_RYU
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Jun '05
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 7:48pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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reply to Master_Starwalker
Yoda and Mace seem to have at least similar interpretations given that both think the Jedi Code justifies killing Palpatine.
I'm not saying they can't agree, I'm saying they all interpret it, and that it's not that unusual for them to have different conclusion. Granted Anakin's interpretation was more different than most.
Anakin's speech that romantic love = compassion was completely inaccurate and was simply to assuage Padme of her (correct) belief that Jedi aren't allowed romantic love. Anakin of course goes on to demonstrate the reason that the Jedi have this rule in RotS.
They were talking about romantique love ? I thought it was just love in general. Even if he said it only to flirt with Padmé, the simple fact that he said show he must have thought about it. And he must have when he first learned about the code and he had to reconcil it with his love for his mother. And it make sense : feeling compassion is feeling someone else's pain and wanting to end it. How the hell can you do that if you're allways trying to maintain a emotional distance between you and the world ?
Impulsiveness is fine as long as it's coming from trusting the Force rather than simply lust for adventure or excitement. However being so heavily emotional is not healthy for a Jedi unless they can learn to control it as Mace Windu did.
lust for adventure imply that he went looking for it. Most of the time he do things that come out as reckless because he knows he can do them ( he tend to be right ). Or because he wants to solve a problem so bad he doesn't care about the risks.
A Jedi raised by the Order would be in general less susceptible.
Palpatine never seemed to have any problem manipulating Jedi. He caused the order to hang itself with its own rope. No matter how good the Jedi they allway fear something. it may be small, it may be under control, they may mot even think about it all that much but they all have chunks in their armors. Give him 13 years of acces to a padawan and the poor kid is doomed.
With Anakin it was his fear of loss and his greed.
What greed ???!! He doesn't give a damm about material possecions. The only thing he like about being in charge is that nobody gets on his back when he do things his way.
They did, but they had fewer and less severe faults.
How do you figure that ?
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female knight in fantasy word reply to being told that not only does she fight like a man she also think like a man :
I think like an human being. Men don't think differently than women, they just make more noise about being able to.
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