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Topic:
Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 8:10pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
10/7/07 8:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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I'm not saying they can't agree, I'm saying they all interpret it, and that it's not that unusual for them to have different conclusion. Granted Anakin's interpretation was more different than most.
Oh there's definitely a degree of interpretation on the Code and just as with things such as the Bible disagreements will come up, I just think saying that no two Jedi have the same conclusion isn't accurate since Mace and Yoda other than on the issue of Anakin seems to pretty much come to the same conclusions.
They were talking about romantique love ? I thought it was just love in general. Even if he said it only to flirt with Padmé, the simple fact that he said show he must have thought about it. And he must have when he first learned about the code and he had to reconcil it with his love for his mother. And it make sense : feeling compassion is feeling someone else's pain and wanting to end it. How the hell can you do that if you're allways trying to maintain a emotional distance between you and the world ?
The Jedi's compassion is simply a love of all living beings and not wanting to see any of them suffer unless it's absolutely necessary as in the case of their duty to destroy the Sith. Anakin doesn't explicitly say romantic love in his conversation with Padme, but given that it's a part of their courtship that's how I took it. It may also be how he reconciles his love for his mother with that of a Jedi, but that wasn't my interpretation.
lust for adventure imply that he went looking for it. Most of the time he do things that come out as reckless because he knows he can do them ( he tend to be right ). Or because he wants to solve a problem so bad he doesn't care about the risks.
It's still recklessness which is horrible for a Jedi as it can lead to arrogance as it did with Anakin.
Palpatine never seemed to have any problem manipulating Jedi. He caused the order to hang itself with its own rope. No matter how good the Jedi they allway fear something. it may be small, it may be under control, they may mot even think about it all that much but they all have chunks in their armors. Give him 13 years of acces to a padawan and the poor kid is doomed.
I'm not saying Palpatine can't manipulate the Jedi. I just don't buy that he could seduce anyone to the Dark Side. If even Anakin is almost able to resist, I don't see Palpatine successfully turning a Jedi more like Obi-Wan in TPM(since he's the only other example we have of a Padawan) to the Dark Side.
What greed ???!! He doesn't give a damm about material possecions. The only thing he like about being in charge is that nobody gets on his back when he do things his way.
"I can't live without her." It's admittedly not a material greed, but his attempt to save Padme was because he couldn't live without her, not because he was selflessly concerned about her well being.
How do you figure that ?
They don't fall to the Dark Side and while it takes them awhile to see that Palpatine's evil they see it before Anakin does. They also aren't authoritarian, don't slaughter children, are able to let go of things they can't control, etc. The worst flaw the Jedi have are that they're too attatched to the Republic.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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CHEVALIER_RYU
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 8:47pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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with the stuts Jedi pulls in the PT they're almost all reckless by your deffinition.
If Palpatine start working on them when they're young and impressionable I bet he can.
as said above any Jedi could have turned to the dark side under Anakin's circonstances, the rest was the result of its influence on him.
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female knight in fantasy word reply to being told that not only does she fight like a man she also think like a man :
I think like an human being. Men don't think differently than women, they just make more noise about being able to.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 8:54pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Oh, under Anakin's circumstances I agree. However none them were under Anakin's circumstances as they'd all been raised by the Order as Jedi not by their mothers.
-----signature-----
"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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RamRed
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
10/7/07 10:10pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Oh, under Anakin's circumstances I agree. However none them were under Anakin's circumstances as they'd all been raised by the Order as Jedi not by their mothers.
Yet, being raised by the Order did not stop any of them from making some seriously bad decisions.
Count Dooku had been raised by the Order. Yet, he became a very dangerous Sith Lord.
Xendor had been a Jedi Master, raised by the Order, who would go on to create the new Sith Order.
One can be raised by the Jedi Order and go on to make mistakes and/or become a Sith Lord. Anakin's pre-Jedi did not make him specifically vulnerable to becoming a Sith.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/8/07 8:47am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
10/8/07 8:49am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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If we're counting the EU, Xendor wasn't trained from birth because he was forced into exile by his star going supernova so it's irrelevent to the Jedi Order as of the Prequel era.
Dooku I've already addressed as he had his political idealism for Palpatine to take advantage of and twist into serving him. Lorian Nod also saw how empty Dooku was at his core. It's a credit to the Jedi's teachings that it took Dooku as long to fall as he did. He was right about the Republic of course, but his response was wrong and his response to the Republic's growing corruption was the wrong way to go about it.
-----signature-----
"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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darth-sinister
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
10/8/07 12:27pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Anakin's speech that romantic love = compassion was completely inaccurate and was simply to assuage Padme of her (correct) belief that Jedi aren't allowed romantic love. Anakin of course goes on to demonstrate the reason that the Jedi have this rule in RotS.
ANAKIN: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life, so you might say we're encouraged
to love."
What he does is confuse compassionate love with possessive love. Anakin loves Padme in a possessive way, as time goes on. He's afraid to lose her and will do anything to prevent his losing her. He thinks of himself rather than of her. This is where he fails. Losing Shmi was in a roundabout way, a test of himself. He should be able to handle the loss of his mother, instead he cannot handle it. He lashes out and then becomes obsessed with preventing it again in the future. This obsession is what gets him into trouble.
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Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor
came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge."
Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side.
Something, something, something complete."
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Dunedain1
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/8/07 1:35pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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While Anakin certainly had some good qualities, and those ultimately would shine through before the end, I don't see how he could be seen as anything other than failure as a Jedi Knight in the prequels. He let his own fears, pride and fascination with the attainment of power draw him over to the dark side. He then betrayed the Jedi Order, aided in the murder of several Jedi, and did the same to the Trade Federation representatives who's side he was supposed to be on at that point. Plus he joined the sith, both his and the Jedi Order's sworn enemy, then he tried to kill Obi-Wan, his master and best friend, and then, in his new guise as Darth Vader, embarked on a campaign of terror to try to subjugate the entire galaxy. If that doesn't qualify as being a failure as a Jedi Knight, I don't see what does.
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CHEVALIER_RYU
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
10/8/07 8:49pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Oh, under Anakin's circumstances I agree. However none them were under Anakin's circumstances as they'd all been raised by the Order as Jedi not by their mothers.
By Anakin's circonstances I meant the fact Palpatine started manipulating him when he was a child and went on for 13 years, not that his mother raised him.
-----signature-----
female knight in fantasy word reply to being told that not only does she fight like a man she also think like a man :
I think like an human being. Men don't think differently than women, they just make more noise about being able to.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/8/07 8:55pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Ah, I'm still not sure what Palpatine would have to prey on with a random 13 year old Jedi.
-----signature-----
"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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Darth_Davi
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
10/9/07 6:33am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
Ah, I'm still not sure what Palpatine would have to prey on with a random 13 year old Jedi.
He wasn't random. Palpatine would have known that the Jedi consider Anakin the Chosen One, and as the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, he would also know what that Chosen One was supposed to do. Anakin was not a random Jedi at all. He was also for all intents and purposes, an orphan. Shmi was still alive, but she was on Tatooine, he wasn't. He never had a father. The best way to prey on Anakin is to act as a generous father figure, something he craves, but never had.
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What the hell is an Aluminium Falcon?
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a thermal exhaust port thats only two meters wide!
It wasn't even fully paid off yet!
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
10/9/07 6:36am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Dunedain1 posted:
While Anakin certainly had some good qualities, and those ultimately would shine through before the end, I don't see how he could be seen as anything other than failure as a Jedi Knight in the prequels. He let his own fears, pride and fascination with the attainment of power draw him over to the dark side. He then betrayed the Jedi Order, aided in the murder of several Jedi, and did the same to the Trade Federation representatives who's side he was supposed to be on at that point. Plus he joined the sith, both his and the Jedi Order's sworn enemy, then he tried to kill Obi-Wan, his master and best friend, and then, in his new guise as Darth Vader, embarked on a campaign of terror to try to subjugate the entire galaxy. If that doesn't qualify as being a failure as a Jedi Knight, I don't see what does.
Exactly! Next thread. 
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
10/9/07 11:22am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
10/9/07 11:23am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SithStarSlayer
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Darth_Davi posted:
Amen. Anakin was a horny 20 year old who was telling Padme what she wanted to hear so he could get into her pants. Gee...can't say I have never ever heard of that happening before...
"Hey baby, what planet you from? You like humans or do you dig the blue skinned type? I'll make you forget all about that boy from Legislative Youth Program, cuz if I can make your fruit float, just imagine what else I can do...  "
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/9/07 12:25pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Darth_Davi posted:
Master_Starwalker posted:
Ah, I'm still not sure what Palpatine would have to prey on with a random 13 year old Jedi.
He wasn't random. Palpatine would have known that the Jedi consider Anakin the Chosen One, and as the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, he would also know what that Chosen One was supposed to do. Anakin was not a random Jedi at all. He was also for all intents and purposes, an orphan. Shmi was still alive, but she was on Tatooine, he wasn't. He never had a father. The best way to prey on Anakin is to act as a generous father figure, something he craves, but never had.
Which is my point. CHEVALIER_RYU 's statement that it was originally in response to was that any Jedi would join Palpatine if he was trying to turn them.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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RamRed
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
10/10/07 2:45pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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I suppose from the rules that the Jedi Council and a good number of fans demand that Anakin adhere to . . . he was a failure as a Jedi.
But I just don't think it really mattered. What is more important to me is that Anakin had failed as an individual. Or he had failed himself.
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PMT99
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
10/11/07 9:23am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
10/11/07 9:29am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
PMT99
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darth-sinister posted:
They never said it was easy. Nothing in life is easy. But living in fear is not going to help as we see. Obi-wan taught Anakin what he needed to know, it's up to Anakin to follow through. If Padme dies, then that is her destiny. She's going to die no matter if he choked her, if she died in child birth or from old age. She's going to die. He has to accept that he cannot save her. People die and we cannot always stop it from happening. Anakin had to accept that in order to live a normal life. Because Anakin tried to stop Padme from dying, he kills her.
Even if Anakin had let Padme die, he'll still succumb to the Dark Side because he'll feel that he has failed again at saving a loved one from dying. You say that Obi-wan taught Anakin everything he needed to know but according to the ROTS novelization, he didn't teach Anakin how to think so no matter what, Anakin doesn't have the cerebral strength to resist the Dark Side.
darth-sinister posted:
The guidlines were fine because Luke followed them. He lets go of his fears and is able to become a Jedi and save his father. The Jedi never tell Anakin to repress his feelings. They tell him to let go of his fear. Fear is the path to the dark side. You cannot live your life in fear of something bad happening to you or yoru loved ones. And for a Jedi, whose powers increase based off of emotions such as fear and anger and hate, they must let them go and expell them from their lives. Just like the Green Lanterns have to let go of their fears and conquer them, in order to have their power rings work against Parallax and the Sinestro Corps. All of which use yellow, which is based on fear and renders their powers ineffectual.
The guidelines only work for Luke because the Jedi gave him a visualization of what the Dark Side can do via Darth Vader and the cave. Plus, the fact that Luke found out that Darth Vader is his father gave him all the more reason to not join the Dark Side. The Jedi only gave Anakin the "fear is the path" speech but it was too vague for him to understand and even when he had Maul and Dooku for visual ID, it wasn't enough since none of them are Anakin's father just as he himself is Luke's father. As you said before, it didn't help that Anakin had Palpatine playing head-twister with him as a way of turning him against the Jedi while Luke had the luxury of not having Palps around him for years which aided him in his blocking out the Dark Side. Just because the Jedi have to let go of their emotions doesn't mean that it'll go away for they are bonded with us all and whatever happens, even a Jedi has to feel something.
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