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Topic:
Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/8 7:01pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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I'd agree with that. I'm just not sure they're that cleanly distinct given just how important being a good Jedi was to Anakin.
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"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Wars not make one great." - Yoda
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Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/8 9:31pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
1/8 9:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Icestar63
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Well, even though Anakin is one of my favorite characters, I must admit that as a Jedi, he kind of did fail in the prequels, but he succeeded as a Jedi in the classic troligy.
The reasons why I think that is because he broke a couple of rules and he did not allways do what he was intructed and he was seduced by the dark side.
In Epsiode 1 he did not fail because he did not do any thing wrong.
In Episode 2, he started going down the dark path and he married against the code.
In Episode 3, he killed a defenceless prisoner, he turned to the dark side and cut of Maces hand and he just stood there and wacthed Mace die and he didn't do anything and he killed younglings and killed Jedi.
So if I add all of these up, I can't really say he suceded as a Jedi in the prequel's.
But he did succeed in the Classic troligy, he saved his son and destroyed the sith. He made the right choice.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/8 9:37pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Agreed. I'd say tat when his life is looked at as a whole Anakin managed to be a success because after all he did destroy the Sith in the end.
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"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Wars not make one great." - Yoda
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Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/8 9:49pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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I agree. 
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DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
1/9 3:06am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
1/9 3:48am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DARTH-SMELLY-FEET
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Icestar63 posted:
Well, even though Anakin is one of my favorite characters, I must admit that as a Jedi, he kind of did fail in the prequels, but he succeeded as a Jedi in the classic troligy.
The reasons why I think that is because he broke a couple of rules and he did not allways do what he was intructed and he was seduced by the dark side.
In Epsiode 1 he did not fail because he did not do any thing wrong.
In Episode 2, he started going down the dark path and he married against the code.
In Episode 3, he killed a defenceless prisoner, he turned to the dark side and cut of Maces hand and he just stood there and wacthed Mace die and he didn't do anything and he killed younglings and killed Jedi.
So if I add all of these up, I can't really say he suceded as a Jedi in the prequel's.
But he did succeed in the Classic troligy, he saved his son and destroyed the sith. He made the right choice.
You make a very good point but can one act of kindness make up for a lifetime of failure.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
1/9 5:54am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Its alegorical in a Christian way I think.. Vader's act may not be just one of self-sacrifice; it might also represent a "rebirth" into alignment with the good side of the force..
I think he was "born again" - just as he had ceased to be anakin skywalker before in ROTS, now he returned... The word Jedi is interesting in that it is both singular and plural. "Return of the Jedi" means BOTH that "The Jedi Order wins out over evil" AND "Anakin Returns From Destruction."
I don't think Anakin/Vader "makes up for" turning evil... But I think that he becomes a force ghost signifies that has made peace with his maker and his evil acts are forgiven.
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LemmingLord
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/9 12:56pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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The Jedi failed Anakin. Obi-Wan flat out admitted it. Yoda, commenting that Vader told Luke he was his father and that was unexpected, pretty much said that he was wrong about Anakin/Vader all along, to me. Plus, they cut Anakin out and down at every turn - allowed him to get close to the chancellor and at all of the key moments when he expressed his truest feelings, he was ignored. Just like his relationship with Padme was ignored...it was too obvious for everyone not to notice 'something'. But maybe to bring balance one has to understand both balance (as he did as a Jedi) and imbalance (as he did as a Sith) and then one can understand what balance entails. In that way, I would say he didn't actually fail at all.
As for his redemption or born again or whatever one calls it; in SW world, the force forgave and the force reunited with him, so that is that, lol.
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"You will try"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/9 1:30pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
The Jedi failed Anakin. Obi-Wan flat out admitted it. Yoda, commenting that Vader told Luke he was his father and that was unexpected, pretty much said that he was wrong about Anakin/Vader all along, to me. Plus, they cut Anakin out and down at every turn - allowed him to get close to the chancellor and at all of the key moments when he expressed his truest feelings, he was ignored. Just like his relationship with Padme was ignored...it was too obvious for everyone not to notice 'something'. But maybe to bring balance one has to understand both balance (as he did as a Jedi) and imbalance (as he did as a Sith) and then one can understand what balance entails. In that way, I would say he didn't actually fail at all.
As for his redemption or born again or whatever one calls it; in SW world, the force forgave and the force reunited with him, so that is that, lol.
Obi-Wan has a tendency to blame himself for things he shouldn't. There was nothing he could have done to stop Anakin's fall. Yoda gave Anakin the advice he needed to hear in RotS yet Anakin ignored it because he didn't want to hear that he needs to let go of Padme and accept things that are out of his control.
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"You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Wars not make one great." - Yoda
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Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/9 1:50pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
1/9 2:10pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Icestar63
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
The Jedi failed Anakin. Obi-Wan flat out admitted it. Yoda, commenting that Vader told Luke he was his father and that was unexpected, pretty much said that he was wrong about Anakin/Vader all along, to me. Plus, they cut Anakin out and down at every turn - allowed him to get close to the chancellor and at all of the key moments when he expressed his truest feelings, he was ignored. Just like his relationship with Padme was ignored...it was too obvious for everyone not to notice 'something'. But maybe to bring balance one has to understand both balance (as he did as a Jedi) and imbalance (as he did as a Sith) and then one can understand what balance entails. In that way, I would say he didn't actually fail at all.
As for his redemption or born again or whatever one calls it; in SW world, the force forgave and the force reunited with him, so that is that, lol.
Anakin failed himself.
Master_Starwalker posted:
xx_Anakin_xx posted:
The Jedi failed Anakin. Obi-Wan flat out admitted it. Yoda, commenting that Vader told Luke he was his father and that was unexpected, pretty much said that he was wrong about Anakin/Vader all along, to me. Plus, they cut Anakin out and down at every turn - allowed him to get close to the chancellor and at all of the key moments when he expressed his truest feelings, he was ignored. Just like his relationship with Padme was ignored...it was too obvious for everyone not to notice 'something'. But maybe to bring balance one has to understand both balance (as he did as a Jedi) and imbalance (as he did as a Sith) and then one can understand what balance entails. In that way, I would say he didn't actually fail at all.
As for his redemption or born again or whatever one calls it; in SW world, the force forgave and the force reunited with him, so that is that, lol.
Obi-Wan has a tendency to blame himself for things he shouldn't. There was nothing he could have done to stop Anakin's fall. Yoda gave Anakin the advice he needed to hear in RotS yet Anakin ignored it because he didn't want to hear that he needs to let go of Padme and accept things that are out of his control.
I agree
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/9 5:30pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
1/9 5:45pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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I guess it is just a matter of perspective. I feel the council failed Obi-Wan too - and Qui-Gon for that matter. It was a chain reaction - one blunder after another. No one in particular, just the body as a whole and their means of doing things. In the end, each person had to chose their own way, but in my judgment, the council failed all three, causing them to fail one another and Anakin was like the stockpile - the mountain of blunders toppled onto his head - to be tossed back upward and outward. On the other hand, I think it was necessary, how can you have balance when you don't know what it is? Anakin got that lesson the long, hard way, leaving both a formidably grand and deeply horrible legacy as a twisting hero. But in reality, although Anakin was the chosen one, there were a number of Jedi heroes, Yoda, Luke, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin, because in the end the Sith were subdued by the Jedi Knights acting as one with the force, when it mattered. In that light, who is at fault for what sort of seems irrelevant - no one failed when it mattered.
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Darthbane2007
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
1/9 5:49pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
The Jedi failed Anakin. Obi-Wan flat out admitted it. Yoda, commenting that Vader told Luke he was his father and that was unexpected, pretty much said that he was wrong about Anakin/Vader all along, to me. Plus, they cut Anakin out and down at every turn - allowed him to get close to the chancellor and at all of the key moments when he expressed his truest feelings, he was ignored. Just like his relationship with Padme was ignored...it was too obvious for everyone not to notice 'something'. But maybe to bring balance one has to understand both balance (as he did as a Jedi) and imbalance (as he did as a Sith) and then one can understand what balance entails. In that way, I would say he didn't actually fail at all.
As for his redemption or born again or whatever one calls it; in SW world, the force forgave and the force reunited with him, so that is that, lol.
Yeah. They know that anakin is way past the Jedi recruitment age, has built attachments. You think, after agreeing to accept him as a Jedi, that they would work more closely with him. Besides, why did they let Obi-Wan train him anyway? regardless of the fact that Obi-Wan did it to honor his master's dying wish, Mace or Yoda should have said " We honor you and Qui-Gon's wishes, Kenobi, but we feel that it is best that anakin be placed under our supervision."
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/9 6:48pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
I guess it is just a matter of perspective. I feel the council failed Obi-Wan too - and Qui-Gon for that matter. It was a chain reaction - one blunder after another. No one in particular, just the body as a whole and their means of doing things. In the end, each person had to chose their own way, but in my judgment, the council failed all three, causing them to fail one another and Anakin was like the stockpile - the mountain of blunders toppled onto his head - to be tossed back upward and outward. On the other hand, I think it was necessary, how can you have balance when you don't know what it is? Anakin got that lesson the long, hard way, leaving both a formidably grand and deeply horrible legacy as a twisting hero. But in reality, although Anakin was the chosen one, there were a number of Jedi heroes, Yoda, Luke, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin, because in the end the Sith were subdued by the Jedi Knights acting as one with the force, when it mattered. In that light, who is at fault for what sort of seems irrelevant - no one failed when it mattered.
Because balance doesn't mean equal Jedi and Sith. All it means is that the Sith are destroyed and the Jedi can keep the peace. Anakin could have easily done this without giving the Sith the gift of galactic dominance for about 20 years.
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"Wars not make one great." - Yoda
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RamRed
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
1/9 8:12pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Yoda and Mace seem to have at least similar interpretations given that both think the Jedi Code justifies killing Palpatine. Anakin's speech that romantic love = compassion was completely inaccurate and was simply to assuage Padme of her (correct) belief that Jedi aren't allowed romantic love. Anakin of course goes on to demonstrate the reason that the Jedi have this rule in RotS.
The Jedi were wrong. Yes, love and attachments can be destructive, as shown in ROTS. But it can also have a postitive effect, as shown in ROTJ. There are no clear answers on how love and attachments can affect someone. It all depends upon the siutation or the moment. The problem with the Jedi was that they were too stupid or too blind to consider this . . . and instead adhered to a more narrow view on the subject.
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DARTHCLANDESTINE
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
1/9 8:59pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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I think the Jedi weren't actually stupid to know a little bit about love. Perhaps they felt that if one "loved" someone, one would fear for them if something happened to them, and thereby cloud one's judgement, due to their fear. As as we know, the Jedi believed that Fear leads to anger then to hate. Imagine that...Love leads to hate and suffering. 
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The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope -- George Lucas
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/9 9:32pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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RamRed posted:
The Jedi were wrong. Yes, love and attachments can be destructive, as shown in ROTS. But it can also have a postitive effect, as shown in ROTJ. There are no clear answers on how love and attachments can affect someone. It all depends upon the siutation or the moment. The problem with the Jedi was that they were too stupid or too blind to consider this . . . and instead adhered to a more narrow view on the subject.
The Jedi never say love is bad. They say not letting go when the situation is out of your control is bad.
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"Wars not make one great." - Yoda
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