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Topic:
Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
1/10 4:44am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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RamRed posted:
The Jedi were wrong. Yes, love and attachments can be destructive, as shown in ROTS. But it can also have a postitive effect, as shown in ROTJ. There are no clear answers on how love and attachments can affect someone. It all depends upon the siutation or the moment. The problem with the Jedi was that they were too stupid or too blind to consider this . . . and instead adhered to a more narrow view on the subject.
I thought the big Jedi failing in the prequels was not to have better ways to deal with Anakin's attachments. What do you do when your prize student won't behave? I know that Master Po from Kung Fu would totally have told a grasshopper alegory and had Anakin learning his lesson of wisdom...
Maybe they spent too much training Anakin to kick butt with his light saber, "put that thing away you're going to get us all killed!"
In fact, maybe if Anakin had been taught to "put that thing away" earlier he wouldn't be having affairs with senators in the first place; and if he had, AT LEAST the Jedi should have kicked him out of the order. Maybe that's the biggest failure of the Jedi.... They didn't apply consequences to Anakin's failures... You slaughter Tuscans? You go to a dark cave to meditate on that for a LONG awhile. You get married??? You get expelled. Instead? They make him a Jedi! Not so wise. Maybe the darkside is clouding everything, but Obi Wan watched with his own two eyes that Anakin was going to risk everything to save Padame...He knew how attached his Padawan was.
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LemmingLord
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Darthbane2007
Registered:
Oct '07
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Date Posted:
1/10 12:47pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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DARTHCLANDESTINE posted:
I think the Jedi weren't actually stupid to know a little bit about love. Perhaps they felt that if one "loved" someone, one would fear for them if something happened to them, and thereby cloud one's judgement, due to their fear. As as we know, the Jedi believed that Fear leads to anger then to hate. Imagine that...Love leads to hate and suffering. 
the Jedi during 1000BBY to 0BBY have never experience love and attachments, since the surviving Jedi of the seventh battle of ruusan reformed the Jedi Order so that potential jedi were taken at birth so as to not form attachments, Jedi Knights were only allowed 1 padawan at anytime, and all Jedi issues were directly moved to coruscant to the Jedi Temple.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
1/10 1:50pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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LemmingLord posted:
In fact, maybe if Anakin had been taught to "put that thing away" earlier he wouldn't be having affairs with senators in the first place; and if he had, AT LEAST the Jedi should have kicked him out of the order. Maybe that's the biggest failure of the Jedi.... They didn't apply consequences to Anakin's failures... You slaughter Tuscans? You go to a dark cave to meditate on that for a LONG awhile. You get married??? You get expelled. Instead? They make him a Jedi! Not so wise. Maybe the darkside is clouding everything, but Obi Wan watched with his own two eyes that Anakin was going to risk everything to save Padame...He knew how attached his Padawan was.
A long time ago; in a random-thread long since dead, I asked the question: "Did Kenobi fail Anakin?"
I got bashed, big-time... After reading your post, I had to comment. While Kenobi may not have failed Anakin outright, he did let him down. As his mentor, Ben had a responsibility to hold his Padawan Learner accountable. Instead, Kenobi turned a blind eye and the rest is history.
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Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
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Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
1/10 2:06pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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But in ROTS Obi-wan was not Anakin master anymore so it was not Obi-wan's responsiblity to look after Anakin.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/10 3:03pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Exactly.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/10 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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LemmingLord posted:
Maybe they spent too much training Anakin to kick butt with his light saber
Not between episodes I and II, apparently...
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/10 4:29pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Well Obi-Wan was not responsible for Anakin going to the dark side, he made that choice himself. But as a Jedi Master, Obi-Wan failed at times - not only Anakin, but themselves and others, so did Yoda, so did Qui-Gon - no one is perfect. But Anakin gave off a lot of clues to all of the masters, if they had clued in, they perhaps could have helped. On the other hand, Anakin had a free will and did not always follow the advice of those around him, so his own personality and mentality also played a role in how he behaved and the choices he made. Perhaps the issue is not failure - perhaps the issue is 'destiny'. I think it all went the way it was supposed to. The force works in mysterious ways... *starts twilight zone soundtrack*
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/10 4:33pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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I think it basically went the way it was supposed to until Mace and Anakin confronted Palpatine. I think his destiny was to kill Palpatine there, save the Republic, and save the Jedi. He failed to do so due to his selfishness so the galaxy was plunged into darkness until he did his job as Chosen One in RotJ.
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"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
1/10 4:52pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
1/10 4:53pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SithStarSlayer
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Icestar63 posted:
But in ROTS Obi-wan was not Anakin master anymore so it was not Obi-wan's responsiblity to look after Anakin.
True. But as a Master and leading-member of the Jedi Council, Obi-Wan Kenobi had an OBLIGATION to report on Anakin's unbecoming behavior, and the violations of his mandates as a Jedi Knight.
Master_Starwalker posted:
I think it basically went the way it was supposed to until Mace and Anakin confronted Palpatine. I think his destiny was to kill Palpatine there, save the Republic, and save the Jedi. He failed to do so due to his selfishness so the galaxy was plunged into darkness until he did his job as Chosen One in RotJ.
Kenobi willingly witheld information from the Council; that IMO likely would have resulted in Anakin not being appointed to the Chancellor's office, and thus he enabled Anakin's decent.
But I also make no bones about it, Anakin chose his path when he went emo and lopped-off Mace's right mitt. That being said; given the way Sidious orchestrated the entire situation, there wasn't much of a choice once Mace was killed.
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
1/10 5:44pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
1/10 5:46pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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But Anakin was right, Mace should not have tried to kill Palpatine, but rather brought him to justice. At that point they all only suspected (highly and rightly) that he was a Sith, but Palpatine hadn't admitted it in front of Anakin to Mace. The Jedi council was breaking its own rules by the end and if Mace had merely taken him prisoner (or tried with Anakin's help), things would have gone differently. What would have likely happened was that Palpatine would have not come quietly and would have again tried to kill Mace. Lucas said Anakin didn't think Palpatine was going to do that, but he would have been in a better position to stop it if Mace had tried to arrest Palpatine rather than attack him. Anakin may have even joined in to defeat Palpatine at that point.
I think all of it was destiny, including the legacy of Darth Vader. The Jedi had the right idea, but they were not bringing balance to the Empire. The Sith represented imbalance in later years even though they called it bringing order to the Empire. Anakin/Vader experienced it all for many years on each side and as such, when the moment of truth came, he knew without a shadow of a doubt that the only way to true balance was the Jedi way. Luke created the moment of choice and the chosen one made the choice (which could have gone either way).
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"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must"
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/10 5:56pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
- Date Edited:
1/10 6:24pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
But Anakin was right, Mace should not have tried to kill Palpatine, but rather brought him to justice. At that point they all only suspected (highly and rightly) that he was a Sith, but Palpatine hadn't admitted it in front of Anakin to Mace. The Jedi council was breaking its own rules by the end and if Mace had merely taken him prisoner (or tried with Anakin's help), things would have gone differently. What would have likely happened was that Palpatine would have not come quietly and would have again tried to kill Mace. Lucas said Anakin didn't think Palpatine was going to do that, but he would have been in a better position to stop it if Mace had tried to arrest Palpatine rather than attack him. Anakin may have even joined in to defeat Palpatine at that point.
Palpatine had shot lightning out of his hands. That's all the proof the Jedi need that he's a Sith. Anakin may not have thought Palpatine would kill Mace, but he still jeopardized the fate of the galaxy out of his selfish desire to save "his wife."(notated as such because it was about 'his wife' as she related to him, not Padme as an individual.)
xx_Anakin_xx posted:
I think all of it was destiny, including the legacy of Darth Vader. The Jedi had the right idea, but they were not bringing balance to the Empire. The Sith represented imbalance in later years even though they called it bringing order to the Empire. Anakin/Vader experienced it all for many years on each side and as such, when the moment of truth came, he knew without a shadow of a doubt that the only way to true balance was the Jedi way. Luke created the moment of choice and the chosen one made the choice (which could have gone either way).
Balance could never be brought to the Empire. It needed to be destroyed for balance to be brought to the Force.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
1/10 6:35pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Master_Starwalker posted:
I think it basically went the way it was supposed to until Mace and Anakin confronted Palpatine. I think his destiny was to kill Palpatine there, save the Republic, and save the Jedi. He failed to do so due to his selfishness so the galaxy was plunged into darkness until he did his job as Chosen One in RotJ.
Clearly it wasn't his destiny to kill Palpatine right then since he didn't... am i missing something? 
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LemmingLord
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/10 6:38pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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Star Wars has free will in addition to destiny. Your destiny is your destiny, but you can turn from it.
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"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way." - Yoda
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anakinandpadmedoomed
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
1/10 6:44pm
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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I have to agree that you destiny is destiny but you CAN turn from it if you choose to.
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
1/11 7:13am
Subject:
RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
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 So in other words:
"In the GFFA, your destiny is what you make it."
-----signature-----
Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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