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Author	Topic: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
DarthDuckie Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 5/12 4:03pm Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	I agree with the above, but I believe that once Anakin had married Padme and she had become pregnant, there was no way that the jedi could overcome Palpatine's influence over Anakin, regardless of the approach that they took. His attachment to her was something which he placed above everything else and as long as palpatine purported to hold the key to Anakin never having to break his bond with her, the jedi were fairly impotent. -----signature----- Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand. -Bodie Theone A hero is a person who understands the responsibility that comes with his freedom. - Bob Dylan
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Force_Chick Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/18 12:53pm Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	Master_Starwalker posted: He didn't fufill his destiny in the Prequels which is what the thread is concerned with. I also would make some of the same choices except I'd tend to want to use technology to save her not sell my soul to a monster. The fact however is irrelevent because sympatheticness doesn't necessarily equal right. In a round about way he DID fulfill his destiny. If he hadn't taken up the apprenticeship under Palpatine, he never would have been able to get close enough to kill him in ROTJ. It just took him 20 yrs and one son later to do it. -----signature----- May the Horse be with you!
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 5/19 8:19pm Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	PMT99 posted: Icestar63 posted: But in ROTS Obi-wan was not Anakin master anymore so it was not Obi-wan's responsiblity to look after Anakin. But Anakin had already used the Dark Side before he was given the rank of Jedi Knight. Obi-wan should take responsibility to look after Anakin by telling the Council to not promote Anakin to Jedi Knight because he didn't deserve it just as he didn't deserve the rank of Master. Anakin is still incapable of controlling his emotions, has a serious impulse-control problem, lacks common sense, and is unable to let go of his attachments. Obi-wan made a huge mistake of ignoring those problems followed by being too late in giving Anakin the support system, not bothering in trying to teach him the art of self-discipline, or relating to him. As a result, it allowed PalpSidious to turn Anakin against the Jedi which is why Obi-wan told Anakin that he failed him. But Jedi were promoted before being perfect all the time. Obi-Wan had "lost it" emotionally when it fought Dooku and he struggled with his attachment to Qui-Gon and then turned around and created an even stronger one to Anakin. Senior Council Member, Mace Windu, "lost it" when fighting Palpatine and refused to listen to reason. The Jedi were not perfect and Anakin was a great Jedi Knight apart from his problems. The thing is, the definition of "great" Jedi Knights had changed to fit his aggressive style because they were acting as war generals instead of peace ambassadors. He didn't lack common sense on the battlefield; Obi-Wan said he was a cunning, awesome and heroic warrior. His weakness was greed (attachment), but it was a double edged sword. That same greed came out as compassion when he wanted to save the clones who other Jedi looked at as basically dispensible droids and he could commune with the Living Force (animals, etc.) exceptionally. So I think making him a Jedi Knight was a good thing; but he definitely needed to work on his faults (fear, anger, impulsiveness). If there was no Padme and no Palpatine, Anakin would have eventually worked through those things in my opinion, once the war was over. But Palpatine manipulated him before Anakin had a chance to get over himself and so he fell. I think Anakin's weaknesses were something he had to learn to deal with and his character simply meant it was going to take him a long time - time he didn't turn out to have. Obi-Wan did his best and made some mistakes too, as did the council and the culmination of circumstances narrowed Anakin's path to one (from his point of view). -----signature----- "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must" "You will try"
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Darth_Pevra Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/21 4:52am Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels? - Date Edited: 5/21 4:53am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Pevra
	Extra joined the forums because of this discussion. Was he a failure as a Jedi? Yes. Anakin Skywalker was never a Jedi. He was a Sith Apprentice, molded both by the Jedi and by Palpatine into it. What the Jedi taught him: Coldness and Indifference: The Jedi never really cared much for Anakin's own wellbeing. Always were his Jedi Duties more important than his own feelings or happiness. He suffered deeply, consistantly, but nobody seemed to care (Yoda didn't offer to help save Padme). Obi Wan cared most, but he was caught in his own problems as well. Naturally Anakin thought that this was the normal way of life. Arrogance: You are the chosen one, the one to bring balance to the force! The jedi missed no opportunity to tell him how special he was. Killing: They sent him into war. What do you thinks happens to you in a war? You learn to fight, and you learn to kill. Corruption: The jedi betrayed their own ideals at every turn. See Windu's attempt to kill Palpy and their total ignorance when they should seek knowledge. Mercilessness: Obi Wan (his real father) was leaving him burning in lava with the excuse that he wasn't Anaking anymore and that he was leaving him to the will of the force. ROTS was the logical conclusion imo. Actually I think Anakin found more of his true self on the side of the Sith. In RTOJ he mastered the Sith teaching coincidently when he saved luke. I don't think he became a Jedi. I think I'll need to explain what I mean. The Sith Code and how Vader mastered its meaning: Peace is a lie, there is only passion - check, there was no more peace in Vader Through passion I gain strength - yeah, Vader was very strong willed Through strength I gain power - he was part of the imperial high command Through power I gain victory - his power allowed him to kill palpy Through victory, my chains are broken. - not only was he not chained anymore to palpatine, he also stripped himself of other chains. The sith were always chained through their fear of showing weakness. Whenever you would show weakness, you would be punished. This drove Dooku, this drove Palpatine, this drove Maul. It was also the reason why Sith would never allow themselves to love. When Vader accepted his own love of luke this chain was shattered. The Force shall free me. - There is no greater freedom than to do whatever you want, without any restraint. Oh my, I hope that wasn't too controversial.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 5/21 10:17am Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	I don't think it is controversal, I just think it is a twist on the correct outlook. To me, the Sith's idea of breaking free from their chains meant that they were essentially free - but that did not mean that they no longer would want to rule the world in an oppressive manner. Being in control of the galaxy was the goal of the Sith, there is no canon otherwise (based on actual Sith Lore - I don't refer to the private ideas of Sith down the ages). Another point is that the Sith Code was not a product of GL, so he was not thinking in terms of Vader living up to the Sith Code when he wrote ROTJ. Finally, Vader (not Anakin) would have mastered the Sith Code and gained its ultimate benefit - and Vader could not become a Jedi Force Ghost. Thus, while I think Anakin did achieve freedom from both the Jedi and the Sith, and he did come to a full realization of remorse, regret and find salvation in the Force (although he didn't pay for his sins), that was sufficient for him to realize the absolute goal of a Jedi and bring balance to the Force (a Jedi Prophecy). Anakin became one with the Force as a redeemed Jedi which did not require payment for past sins, only realizations, actions and bringing balance. Luke said, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Anakin said, "you were right." and he also said "you've already saved me" So I think the idea was not that Vader had mastered Sith lore, but rather that Anakin had mastered the true Jedi lore - something that no Jedi had been able to do before. So I am agreeing with you, just putting different labels on things. The thing I don't agree with is that Anakin was a Sith Apprentice while he was a Jedi. If you are speaking in metaphorical terms, I do see your point, however, in real terms, Anakin was a struggling Jedi (like all of the others) - his mistakes were bigger, but so were his successes and imo, he did not fail as a Jedi until he rejected it to become a Sith. Then he failed as a Sith when he rejected it and the old Jedi ways to become the best Jedi possible (at that time). -----signature----- "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must" "You will try"
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Darthbane2007 Registered: Oct '07	Date Posted: 5/22 9:35am Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	He wasn't a failure; just a flawed Jedi of the time period. Everybody had a hand in his downfall: Jedi: it's public knowledge that Anakin has untapped force potential and is 9 years old. However, what sets him apart from most of the Jedi is that he had a life. He had a caring mother who loved him, a boss that worked him long hours, and good friends. He was able to feel emotions such as sadness and anger. Don't get me wrong, the Jedi were good people, and they were in dire times, but from day one, they were taught to show no emotions, forbid any and all attachments, and were raised in a closed enviroment until the age of 10/whenever they were chosen for Padawan apprenticeship. Of course they never could understand Anakin; they were afraid of what he was capable of. But in the end, they accepted him. But rather than welcome him into the group, except for a few Jedi, such as Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and any others I may have missed, they pretty much didn't interract him, and if they did, it was only to revive the notion that he was the chosen one and he was needed to bring down the sith. It's like they envied him that he had a life outside the Order.
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PMT99 Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 5/26 5:27am Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels? - Date Edited: 5/26 5:59am (1 edits total) Edited By: PMT99
	xx_Anakin_xx posted: But Jedi were promoted before being perfect all the time. Obi-Wan had "lost it" emotionally when it fought Dooku and he struggled with his attachment to Qui-Gon and then turned around and created an even stronger one to Anakin. Senior Council Member, Mace Windu, "lost it" when fighting Palpatine and refused to listen to reason. The Jedi were not perfect and Anakin was a great Jedi Knight apart from his problems. The thing is, the definition of "great" Jedi Knights had changed to fit his aggressive style because they were acting as war generals instead of peace ambassadors. He didn't lack common sense on the battlefield; Obi-Wan said he was a cunning, awesome and heroic warrior. His weakness was greed (attachment), but it was a double edged sword. That same greed came out as compassion when he wanted to save the clones who other Jedi looked at as basically dispensible droids and he could commune with the Living Force (animals, etc.) exceptionally. So I think making him a Jedi Knight was a good thing; but he definitely needed to work on his faults (fear, anger, impulsiveness). If there was no Padme and no Palpatine, Anakin would have eventually worked through those things in my opinion, once the war was over. But Palpatine manipulated him before Anakin had a chance to get over himself and so he fell. I think Anakin's weaknesses were something he had to learn to deal with and his character simply meant it was going to take him a long time - time he didn't turn out to have. Obi-Wan did his best and made some mistakes too, as did the council and the culmination of circumstances narrowed Anakin's path to one (from his point of view). First off, I think you mean "Obi-wan "lost it" emotionally when he fought Darth Maul because Qui-Gon was killed and that enraged Obi-wan but he never lost it when he fought Dooku. Second, those examples of Jedi losing it are fleeting since they're all in the "fight-or-die" scenario. Mace didn't really lose it since he knew full well that letting Palpatine live means the end of both the Jedi Order and the Republic while Anakin lacked the common sense to know this. He's too busy making excuses to Mace just so he could use PalpSidious to show him how to access the death-defying power that can save Padme. Anakin's issues are more self-centered because anything bad happens to him, he takes it out on other people instead of admitting that its his fault. Then he kills both the Tuskens and Dooku out of revenge and when he betrays Mace, he doomed everyone such as the Jedi, the Republic, the Galaxy, Padme, and himself but he once again lacked the common sense to know this until after he's told that Padme's dead by his own hands. Being a Jedi isn't just about being super-powerful or being a great swordsman, but about being a master of yourself and your environment but Anakin didn't take the latter seriously which is why he's a failure as a Jedi. Darth_Pevra posted: Arrogance: You are the Chosen One, the one to bring balance to the force! The jedi missed no opportunity to tell him how special he was. The only Jedi that tells Anakin all of this were Qui-Gon and Obi-wan(Of course by the time he points that out, Anakin's too consumed with hatred to hear any of it). None of the other Jedi feel like making Anakin feel special so he got all the ego-boosting from Palpatine. Darth_Pevra posted: Corruption: The jedi betrayed their own ideals at every turn. See Windu's attempt to kill Palpy and their total ignorance when they should seek knowledge. I think with the Mace situation, allowing Palpatine to live is what really constitutes as the Jedi betraying their own ideals. They're suppose to be the defenders of peace and justice in the galaxy and allowing a Sith Lord to continue running the government and running the galaxy to the ground with his warmongering schemes goes against everything they stand for. Their ignorance to all the events that took place in the prequals is due to the Dark Side clouding their vision.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 5/26 7:16am Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	I like how Obi-Wan is now referred to as "it". -----signature----- The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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GS335 Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 6/16 5:01am Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	Was Anakin a failure as a jedi? Yes, he was. Like PMT99 said, Anakin did not master himself. Instead of controlling his emotions, Anakin allowed his emotions to control him. He failed to let go of his emotional attachments, which is the root of the whole problem. Thus, Anakin became a slave to himself so to speak. Anakin became a slave to the darkside. When that happened, vader appeared and Anakin was basically dead. The monster that brutally murdered the jedi, including gasp the children, was darth vader. Anakin was pretty much dead at that point. Yoda said as much in the movie, and Obi Wan told Luke this, years later. This story is called the traegity of darth vader. The story wouldn't be a traegity if Anakin did not fail as a jedi. He failed himself, which was even more unfortunate. It took his own son to teach Anakin something he should've learned years ago, which is compassion and mastering onself. Anakin learning that hard lesson in the end is what enabled him to bring balance to the force and ultimately redeem himself, thus saving his soul. Luke touched what little ounce of good was left in his father, which is what saved his father at the end. -----signature----- We can do ALL things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens us!
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Darthbane2007 Registered: Oct '07	Date Posted: 6/16 7:20am Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	Whatever intentions was to be had, Everybody had a part in Anakin's downfall, including Anakin himself. Jedi as a whole: Nobody really trusted him, because of his Immense power and natural upbringing. Other than Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, the Jedi didn't doctrine enough of their beliefs or whatnot into him, as he was 9 years old, and that was considered too old for training. Obi-Wan: Obi-Wan was a good Jedi, but I think Qui-Gon kinda gave Obi-Wan the shaft in this one. He barely completed the trials necessary to become a Knight, and you stick him with a boy who has immense force potential, but has had no training in the force to properly use it and is too old to begin training? I think Anakin could have become better used if he was paired with a Jedi Master such as Ki-Adi-Mundi, or Mace Windu, or Cin Drallig, Masters who know more about what a Jedi does and knows better how to apply it. Palpatine: From the moment he met him at the end of TPM, Palpatine was making sure that the boy would be his apprentice in the long run. Filling his head with whatever nonsense he wanted, telling Anakin in due time, he would be the greatest Jedi of all time, Boosting Anakin's ego so to speak.
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Master_Starwalker Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 6/17 12:35pm Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	Force_Chick posted: Master_Starwalker posted: He didn't fufill his destiny in the Prequels which is what the thread is concerned with. I also would make some of the same choices except I'd tend to want to use technology to save her not sell my soul to a monster. The fact however is irrelevent because sympatheticness doesn't necessarily equal right. In a round about way he DID fulfill his destiny. If he hadn't taken up the apprenticeship under Palpatine, he never would have been able to get close enough to kill him in ROTJ. It just took him 20 yrs and one son later to do it. But that's not true. He was close enough to kill Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith. Mace could have held Palpatine at bay and Anakin could have ended it without plunging the galaxy into darkness. Darth_Pevra posted: Through victory, my chains are broken. - not only was he not chained anymore to palpatine, he also stripped himself of other chains. The sith were always chained through their fear of showing weakness. Whenever you would show weakness, you would be punished. This drove Dooku, this drove Palpatine, this drove Maul. It was also the reason why Sith would never allow themselves to love. When Vader accepted his own love of luke this chain was shattered. The Force shall free me. - There is no greater freedom than to do whatever you want, without any restraint. Oh my, I hope that wasn't too controversial. I just truncated your post so the quotation won't be too long but I disagree. The Sith would never sacrifice themselves to save another's life. When Anakin did that he embraced selflessness and compassion as shown by his appearance as a Force Ghost. I would also argue he followed aspects of the Jedi Code in his sacrifice(though not consciously.) Jedi must put the needs of the community above the needs of individuals. - He knowingly sacrificed himself to save Luke from death which saved the galaxy from tyranny. A Jedi must protect the weak and defenseless from evil. - Luke isn't weak, but he was defenseless before Palpatine. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for aggression or personal gain. - Similar to above. He was defending Luke. A Jedi will not take revenge, such as did Anakin against the Tusken Raiders - Anakin had plenty of motivation to kill Palpatine out of revenge, but he didn't. He did out of a selfless desire to save his son and stop a monster. The Jedi Code is larger than the standard "There is no emotion. There is peace. There is no ignorance. There is knowledge. etc." that is typically depicted as the Code. -----signature----- "Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
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Dunedain1 Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 8/29 6:27pm Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?
	xx_Anakin_xx makes a good point. The sith talk about being free from chains and so on, but they aren't really talking about freedom. Freedom is having the ability to do what one ought to do; to do good, to do the right thing. What the sith want is license, which is a very different thing. They want to be able to do anything they want, whenever they want. They want power and domination over others and they don't care who gets hurt in the process. With the sith it's all about ego, pride and extreme selfishness.
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xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 8/29 9:26pm Subject: RE: Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels? - Date Edited: 8/29 9:28pm (2 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
	PMT99 posted: First off, I think you mean "Obi-wan "lost it" emotionally when he fought Darth Maul because Qui-Gon was killed and that enraged Obi-wan but he never lost it when he fought Dooku. Correct. PMT99 posted: Second, I had a feeling there was going to be a second... PMT99 posted: those examples of Jedi losing it are fleeting since they're all in the "fight-or-die" scenario. Mace didn't really lose it since he knew full well that letting Palpatine live means the end of both the Jedi Order and the Republic while Anakin lacked the common sense to know this. He's too busy making excuses to Mace just so he could use PalpSidious to show him how to access the death-defying power that can save Padme. Anakin's issues are more self-centered because anything bad happens to him, he takes it out on other people instead of admitting that its his fault. Then he kills both the Tuskens and Dooku out of revenge and when he betrays Mace, he doomed everyone such as the Jedi, the Republic, the Galaxy, Padme, and himself but he once again lacked the common sense to know this until after he's told that Padme's dead by his own hands. Your premise was that all the Jedi except Anakin were in "fight or die" scenarios and had their reasons for doing what they. You then explained that in the case of Mace, why he was not really "losing it". However, your reasoning rests on your agreement with what Mace was thinking and ignores the fact that Mace was listening to Anakin and didn't hear a word he said. Anakin said this to Mace about Palpatine: "I NEED HIM" (screamed). Mace did not address this because he was lost in his Vaapad nightmare in which he kills Sidious. His bad. But I conclude that he lost it. Further, you indicate that Anakin's issues were self-centered because anything bad that happens to him, he takes out on other people rather than admit it is his fault. In what way was it Anakin's fault that the Tuskins killed his mother? In what way was it his fault that Dooku fell to the dark side and became a Sith he had to battle? I agree Anakin took a stroll down the dark path during these events, but I don't see in what way he should have blamed himself for what happened. Others were clearly to blame. With Dooku, Anakin was in a fight or die situation, but you cut him no slack on that one, even though that was your excuse for Mace's 'losing it'. With the Tuskins, Anakin reverted to his childhood ways and went after them, just as Lars and his group of friends had done (the Tatooine way). He was a hero in Tatooine for killing the Tuskins; but a loser with the Jedi. Nonetheless, wiping out the whole village was compeltely wrong, but I don't see why he was to blame for them killing his mother and inciting him to act. His problem, in my opinion, was self control. When he found his mother pleading and beaten and she died in his arms, he wanted revenge, he could and did take it. I would love to judge him harshly for that - but you know what? If I found my mum in that condition, I cannot honestly tell you I would invite the Tuskins over for tea and cakes. There was no law on Tatooine - they could only take in into their own hands, so I may have. Anakin went further than I ever would with the kids - so for that I can legitimately fault him. But the adults who strung up and beat his mum to death? No mercy from me for those Tuskins, sorry. Padme didn't die at Anakin's hands. She died of a broken heart. We may not like that, but that is what GL wanted. However, it was Anakin who broke her heart, so metaphorically I suppose you could say he killed her if you want to. But he was at that time a Sith already (and when he killed the Jedi/Separtists), which is outside of the scope of what we were discussing - we were talking about Anakin's failure as a Jedi. So you got into the sin naming game and got carried away with yourself. As a Jedi, it was the Tuskins and Dooku, both of which I have addressed. PMT99 posted: Being a Jedi isn't just about being super-powerful or being a great swordsman, but about being a master of yourself and your environment but Anakin didn't take the latter seriously which is why he's a failure as a Jedi. I agree with your premise, but I disagree with your conclusion. All Jedi failed; just as Anakin did. Many Jedi struggled not to tall prey to the dark side, just as Anakin did - and some of them had tastes with it too. So I don't see him failing any more than anyone else as a Jedi. Anakin made a real choice in Palpatine's office; at that point he could have remained a Jedi, but he chose to be a Sith. If he had walked in a failed Jedi, he would have already been a Sith and there really would not have been a choice - much less a story. We know this is true because Anakin the young Jedi is all that Old Anakin the repented Vader had to go on. Luke didn't teach him philosophies or how to be a good person; Anakin had to draw on lessons from his youth, from the good person he had been and was inside in order to find his way back to being a Jedi. -----signature----- "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I'll do what I must" "You will try"
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